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Strategy - Sub-Zero Predator V Sub Zero - MKX's First Death

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xInfra Deadx

xInfra Deadx

Gimmick stolen by Jordan Peele
DinoPizzaria said:
I see what you mean but I see where the mix up happened. I don't mean I want the parry to be dash-cancel-able how D'Vorah's bug cancel is. Her cancel is more of a run cancel and is used to keep up offense. I mean dash cancel as in actually dashing to at least have a chance at avoiding being punished every time you wrongly throw out the shield. All dashes have recovery frames, especially SZ's. He wouldn't gain any block infinities since the dash cancel is actual a dash cancel instead of a run cancel. I don't even think SZ has any strings that are plus or safe enough for that to even happen. The core gameplay of the variation is to turtle and wait for your opponent to make mistakes and punish them for it. That's how the variation is supposed to be played.
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You're basically describing what was busted about Kabal. You REALLY want something that dumb in this game?
 
DinoPizzaria

DinoPizzaria

Professional Twerking Choreographer
protools27 said:
So you basically want a 6 frame parry that parries everything but jump ins that ALSO would be safe when you make a bad read, or in your words "avoid being punish for WRONGLY throw out a shield?" Also, wrongly throwing out shields is not playing defensive and turtling, that's actually the opposite.
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That parry, even though it parry's almost everything, is ass and easily punishable. Like I said, if you dash cancel a move, even if the cancel is +1 or 0 on block, that dash still has recovery frames and you can still be easily punished with the right read.

For example, Cassie can simply read the back dash from the cancel and b12 him into a full 30%+ combo into a standing reset.

Now with the part about using the dash to avoid punishes, strings that have gaps. B124from Cassie is well known to have a gap you can armor through. If Cassie only does the b12 part of the string and SZ uses the shield expecting the 3 to come out, he can be full combo punished since the shield has so much recovery. The point of dash canceling the shield is for better positioning and avoiding punishes. Yes he would still have recovery frames after back dashing but not nearly as many as the shields recovery. Back dashing does cost stamina. That's two cancels he would have with one of the worse parry's in the game. In the corner it would be almost useless unless you make a hell of a read on a jump in to dash out and waste more stamina to get away. He's hardly a Kabal and this is really not that big of a buff lol.
 
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protools27

protools27

Rebel without a scene
DinoPizzaria said:
That parry, even though it parry's almost everything, is ass and easily punishable. Like I said, if you dash cancel a move, even if the cancel is +1 or 0 on block, that dash still has recovery frames and you can still be easily punished with the right read.

For example, Cassie can simply read the back dash from the cancel and b12 him into a full 30%+ combo into a standing reset.

Now with the part about using the dash to avoid punishes, strings that have gaps
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I'm pretty sure cassies b1 doesn't punish subs backdash. One of her mind games is b12 or b124, because b124 has a gap between the second and third hit that can be backdashed or armored through. If I think someone is going to backdash, I'll just stop at b12, then do another b12 to punish the backdash, but subs moves back to fast for that to work iirc.

Anyway, a parry is supposed to be a high risk move, you shouldn't just be able to dash cancel a parry to make it safe, the amount of brokenness that could come of that (as multiple people have mentioned) is ridiculous.
 
Slips

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
DinoPizzaria said:
That parry, even though it parry's almost everything, is ass and easily punishable. Like I said, if you dash cancel a move, even if the cancel is +1 or 0 on block, that dash still has recovery frames and you can still be easily punished with the right read.

For example, Cassie can simply read the back dash from the cancel and b12 him into a full 30%+ combo into a standing reset.

Now with the part about using the dash to avoid punishes, strings that have gaps
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You do realize dashes can be cancelled into runs, and runs can be cancelled by doing moves...that's literally how all the run cancel pressure works in this game. Do you even understand the mechanics of the game?

What you are asking is to introduce a brand new mechanic in the game where a dash cannot be cancelled into a run. The closest thing to your suggestion is Predator's and Tremor's fireball cancels where they don't actually dash but still get the same amount of frame advantage from all the other run cancels.

Lets take a step back and realize we are now arguing about mechanics that don't even exist in the game. Please just stop. Faster startup and better recover is all the parry needs.
 
DinoPizzaria

DinoPizzaria

Professional Twerking Choreographer
protools27 said:
I'm pretty sure cassies b1 doesn't punish subs backdash. One of her mind games is b12 or b124, because b124 has a gap between the second and third hit that can be backdashed or armored through. If I think someone is going to backdash, I'll just stop at b12, then do another b12 to punish the backdash, but subs moves back to fast for that to work iirc.

Anyway, a parry is supposed to be a high risk move, you shouldn't just be able to dash cancel a parry to make it safe, the amount of brokenness that could come of that (as multiple people have mentioned) is ridiculous.
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That's what I'm saying. Canceling the shield will not only be easily read by your opponent and punished accordingly, but you also lose out on an important resource (stamina). I'm not saying he should just have a shield with 3 start up frames that parries almost anything in the game with the ability to dash out of it to make it safe. I don't know how much more I can stress that if an opponent sees that shield go up and their only two options are to wait until it's down to punish during recovery or run up close to punish the dash cancel, it won't be broken. You would still have to use your brain to not be punished. I'm saying this makes his shield more viable and gives it more depth because honestly, it's a pretty one dimensional move. You throw it out, you get punished horribly for it. Just saying it could be better.
 
DinoPizzaria

DinoPizzaria

Professional Twerking Choreographer
Slips said:
You do realize dashes can be cancelled into runs, and runs can be cancelled by doing moves...that's literally how all the run cancel pressure works in this game. Do you even understand the mechanics of the game?

What you are asking is to introduce a brand new mechanic in the game where a dash cannot be cancelled into a run. The closest thing to your suggestion is Predator's and Tremor's fireball cancels where they don't actually dash but still get the same amount of frame advantage from all the other run cancels.

Lets take a step back and realize we are now arguing about mechanics that don't even exist in the game. Please just stop. Faster startup and better recover is all the parry needs.
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How is it a new mechanic when D'Vorah can back dash cancel out of her bug bomb at the cost of stamina? I understand the forward dash but back dash is still there.
 
Slips

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
DinoPizzaria said:
How is it a new mechanic when D'Vorah can back dash cancel out of her bug bomb at the cost of stamina?
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Because she can also forward dash and then run cancel into pressure, hence one of the main reasons she's considered one of the best in the game. But please, continue to show how ignorant you are about how this game works.
 
DinoPizzaria

DinoPizzaria

Professional Twerking Choreographer
Slips said:
Because she can also forward dash and then run cancel into pressure, hence one of the main reasons she's considered one of the best in the game. But please, continue to show how ignorant you are about how this game works.
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With that being said I don't think it would be that hard to make a move soley back dash cancelable but, ok.
 
exflyingbooty

exflyingbooty

This dream has a sad ending
DinoPizzaria said:
You throw it out, you get punished horribly for it. Just saying it could be better.
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Like every other parry in the game???? You know sonya's/kitana's/liu kang's????

Did you know sonya's parry in covert ops loses to throws/lows/jump ins/projectiles? But it's still an extremely good move. Sub zero's parry is literally almost as good as sonya's x-ray, Guess what?? a move with that much utility deserves to be negative and punishable just like every other of these parries. Your character can get like a full combo which none of these other characters can except sonya with ex parry.

I really don't see why sub zero mains can't understand how good this tool is.
 
protools27

protools27

Rebel without a scene
exflyingbooty said:
Like every other parry in the game???? You know sonya's/kitana's/liu kang's????

Did you know sonya's parry in covert ops loses to throws/lows/jump ins/projectiles? But it's still an extremely good move. Sub zero's parry is literally almost as good as sonya's x-ray, Guess what?? a move with that much utility deserves to be negative and punishable just like every other of these parries. Your character can get like a full combo which none of these other characters can except sonya with ex parry.

I really don't see why sub zero mains can't understand how good this tool is.
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nah bruh, he needs a parry that's 6 frames and only loses to jump ins to also be more safe on block, and dash cancellable.
#whysubzerocanthavenicethings
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
@Rude

I have some time, so here's some context...

I'm someone that gives props to anyone I can't beat. Then, I'll add them. I don't get mad at them, at the game, or even at myself. If I can learn and improve, I will always see if they're up for more games. People who are better than me at the game know stuff I don't - or approach the game in ways that I'm unaware of. I like the challenge, so - as long as they don't think I'm wasting their time - I'm always down to play.

Now, this doesn't mean that I stink. 80% of players play me once or twice - and never want to play again. About the same amount of players - although not necessarily all the same ones - have zero chance of beating me. So, I'm not the worst player either. I'm certainly not the best, but I'm not bad either. I've learned from the tech here and the guys here.

So, I played this random. He switched characters a few times and I kept beating him handily. A few double flawless matches later and he picked The Predator.

So, we played 5 matches relatively lag free and I continued pounding him. He was playing lame, but he didn't know combo or punish tech - so I was hitting him with 40 to 50 consistently and his damage was no where near that. Eventually, we played 2 games in completely awful lag - and he won those. I use Kotal and timing on his combos and punishment on block is kind of strict, so he was able to win when the damage was more even. So, after the match he messaged me with, "I'm better than you." He was better than me at playing through lag.

It got me thinking though. I had seen Sonic Fox doing damage on par with the damage I do with Kotal Khan - so I have some tech to get there. In addition, The Predator has way more tools to work with. So, I start practicing with him. HQT looked like the easiest one, so I started with that one. I practiced for a good and very focused hour. I had the tech written down and I worked on combo execution and punishing. After that, I hit my friends up. The ones I couldn't beat before, I challenged. After a few hours of games, my win percentage was way up. I was winning 4 out of 5 matches - when I was struggling to win 1 out of 5 before. So, I went to bed. The next morning, I practiced with his Hunter variation for another good hour. Then, I put out the challenges again. Now, I was playing different guys - but I had even less success in the past verses these guys. I was consistently winning 8 or 9 in a row before taking a loss.

Now, I'm still nowhere near as good as the guys on my friends list are. I'm good at execution, but I fall into predictable patterns. I just do dumb stuff a lot and against really good players, that gets you beat consistently ... unless you're The Predator - because he is broken.
 
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GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Gangsta Crizzab said:
I don't see how the OP is a joke considering most of what he's saying is true.
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TB gets some hate here because he's very passionate, but those denying his insight generally have an agenda.

Remember, there are Sub Zero players - and there are players that hate Sub Zero. Rarely are players moderate on the topic of SZ.
 
G

Gangsta Crizzab

Noob
GAV said:
TB gets some hate here because he's very passionate, but those denying his insight generally have an agenda.

Remember, there are Sub Zero players - and there are players that hate Sub Zero. Rarely are players moderate on the topic of SZ.
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I can agree with that. Tom does have a tendency to complain loudly and annoyingly about a lot of things, but he's completely right most of the time. Definitely a lot of haters for Sub Zero, people act like he's super broke and easy to use when you have to think about every single move you make unless you want to get rekt. Ice Clone is really good versus a handful of characters and definitely a great tool, but hardly the meta-changing move people make it out to be.
 
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