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Strategy - Sub-Zero Predator V Sub Zero - MKX's First Death

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IceNinja

IceNinja

Assassin
Sub-Zero does NOT have a 50/50 (besides throw) his back 2 is blockable on reaction. a 50/50 is a straight up guess.
 
exflyingbooty

exflyingbooty

This dream has a sad ending
IceNinja said:
Sub-Zero does NOT have a 50/50 (besides throw) his back 2 is blockable on reaction. a 50/50 is a straight up guess.
Click to expand...
cyromancer
  • j1/2 into b+3/air frost hammer/b+2/throw
  • b+3, ex hammer/throw/3
  • b+3,3 ex hammer/slide/throw
  • f+3, ex hammer/3
  • f+3,3 ex hammer/slide/throw
  • reset into ex hammer/ slide
Inb4 ex hammer doesn't work, you have to be looking for ex hammer in order to not get hit by it

Unbreakable
  • j.1/2 b+3/b+2/throw
  • b+3 throw/3
  • f+3 throw/3
  • 1 throw/2

  • Not a mix up variation but parry makes it difficult to attack during strings, b+33 parry for example. This makes stagger pressure stronger.
Grandmaster
  • j.1/2,b+2/b+3/throw
  • b+3 throw/3
  • Ice clone b+2/b+3/ throw(back/forward throw becomes a mixup in this situation), j.1 depending on clone location
:coffee:
 
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UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
exflyingbooty said:
Inb4 ex hammer doesn't work, you have to be looking for ex hammer in order to not get hit by it

Unbreakable
  • j.1/2 b+3/b+2/throw
  • b+3 throw/3
  • f+3 throw/3
  • 1 throw/2

  • Not a mix up variation but parry makes it difficult to attack during strings, b+33 parry for example. This makes stagger pressure stronger.
:coffee:
Click to expand...
EX hammer can be punished on block by these characters without meter:
Jax (Barely moves anywhere)
Scorpion (All pokes and standing 1)
Kano (MB Ball, also in D1 and D4 Range)
Lui Kang (D1,D2, general range for everything)
Kotal Kahn (D4)
Sub Zero (Slide)
Reptile MB Slide, Dash (Also in F2, B3 range)
Ferra/Torr Standing 1 and 2
Raiden standing 1
Goro Grab

So immediately against any of these characters, this variation can't be used, not including any characters with multiple hitting armoured moves that can punish on hit.

I also hope you don't mean chaining a parry in after strings such B33 Parry.

The issue with the parry is that it is 6 frames, meaning it can be stuffed by most normals in the game after his strings as they are all around -6/-7, meaning you have to take a total chance throwing out a MB parry, which unlike general armoured moves, some can't be jumped over, some can't be back dashed, some can be NJP and some require an actual block punish. The parry is a poor mans armoured move.
 
exflyingbooty

exflyingbooty

This dream has a sad ending
UsedForGlue said:
EX hammer can be punished on block by these characters without meter:
Jax (Barely moves anywhere)
Scorpion (All pokes and standing 1)
Kano (MB Ball, also in D1 and D4 Range)
Lui Kang (D1,D2, general range for everything)
Kotal Kahn (D4)
Sub Zero (Slide)
Reptile MB Slide, Dash (Also in F2, B3 range)
Ferra/Torr Standing 1 and 2
Raiden standing 1
Goro Grab

So immediately against any of these characters, this variation can't be used, not including any characters with multiple hitting armoured moves that can punish on hit.

I also hope you don't mean chaining a parry in after strings such B33 Parry.

The issue with the parry is that it is 6 frames, meaning it can be stuffed by most normals in the game after his strings as they are all around -6/-7, meaning you have to take a total chance throwing out a MB parry, which unlike general armoured moves, some can't be jumped over, some can't be back dashed, some can be NJP and some require an actual block punish. The parry is a poor mans armoured move.
Click to expand...
The person who wrote that said sub zero had no mix up, i proved him wrong. If these are good or not are another thing but these things can be used(except parry, i guess)
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
IceNinja said:
Sub-Zero does NOT have a 50/50 (besides throw) his back 2 is blockable on reaction. a 50/50 is a straight up guess.
Click to expand...
Sub Zero absolutely has a 50/50. They are both faster than 16 frames, which is always hard to block in any game on reaction, also, the difference between his B3 (13 frames and his B2 (16 frames), it really isn't much, also, a throw doesn't equate in a 50/50.
 
Bomborge

Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
GAV said:
@Rude

I have some time, so here's some context...

I'm someone that gives props to anyone I can't beat. Then, I'll add them. I don't get mad at them, at the game, or even at myself. If I can learn and improve, I will always see if they're up for more games. People who are better than me at the game know stuff I don't - or approach the game in ways that I'm unaware of. I like the challenge, so - as long as they don't think I'm wasting their time - I'm always down to play.

Now, this doesn't mean that I stink. 80% of players play me once or twice - and never want to play again. About the same amount of players - although not necessarily all the same ones - have zero chance of beating me. So, I'm not the worst player either. I'm certainly not the best, but I'm not bad either. I've learned from the tech here and the guys here.

So, I played this random. He switched characters a few times and I kept beating him handily. A few double flawless matches later and he picked The Predator.

So, we played 5 matches relatively lag free and I continued pounding him. He was playing lame, but he didn't know combo or punish tech - so I was hitting him with 40 to 50 consistently and his damage was no where near that. Eventually, we played 2 games in completely awful lag - and he won those. I use Kotal and timing on his combos and punishment on block is kind of strict, so he was able to win when the damage was more even. So, after the match he messaged me with, "I'm better than you." He was better than me at playing through lag.

It got me thinking though. I had seen Sonic Fox doing damage on par with the damage I do with Kotal Khan - so I have some tech to get there. In addition, The Predator has way more tools to work with. So, I start practicing with him. HQT looked like the easiest one, so I started with that one. I practiced for a good and very focused hour. I had the tech written down and I worked on combo execution and punishing. After that, I hit my friends up. The ones I couldn't beat before, I challenged. After a few hours of games, my win percentage was way up. I was winning 4 out of 5 matches - when I was struggling to win 1 out of 5 before. So, I went to bed. The next morning, I practiced with his Hunter variation for another good hour. Then, I put out the challenges again. Now, I was playing different guys - but I had even less success in the past verses these guys. I was consistently winning 8 or 9 in a row before taking a loss.

Now, I'm still nowhere near as good as the guys on my friends list are. I'm good at execution, but I fall into predictable patterns. I just do dumb stuff a lot and against really good players, that gets you beat consistently ... unless you're The Predator - because he is broken.
Click to expand...
He is not broken. The only "nerf" he needs is to get the damage scaling on the slam correctly. Did you also consider these guys may not have matchup experience? Pre-patch Tanya was a whole different monster compared to predator at the moment who IMO is not even top 5 and no where near close to broken.
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
GAV said:
@Rude

I have some time, so here's some context...

I'm someone that gives props to anyone I can't beat. Then, I'll add them. I don't get mad at them, at the game, or even at myself. If I can learn and improve, I will always see if they're up for more games. People who are better than me at the game know stuff I don't - or approach the game in ways that I'm unaware of. I like the challenge, so - as long as they don't think I'm wasting their time - I'm always down to play.

Now, this doesn't mean that I stink. 80% of players play me once or twice - and never want to play again. About the same amount of players - although not necessarily all the same ones - have zero chance of beating me. So, I'm not the worst player either. I'm certainly not the best, but I'm not bad either. I've learned from the tech here and the guys here.

So, I played this random. He switched characters a few times and I kept beating him handily. A few double flawless matches later and he picked The Predator.

So, we played 5 matches relatively lag free and I continued pounding him. He was playing lame, but he didn't know combo or punish tech - so I was hitting him with 40 to 50 consistently and his damage was no where near that. Eventually, we played 2 games in completely awful lag - and he won those. I use Kotal and timing on his combos and punishment on block is kind of strict, so he was able to win when the damage was more even. So, after the match he messaged me with, "I'm better than you." He was better than me at playing through lag.

It got me thinking though. I had seen Sonic Fox doing damage on par with the damage I do with Kotal Khan - so I have some tech to get there. In addition, The Predator has way more tools to work with. So, I start practicing with him. HQT looked like the easiest one, so I started with that one. I practiced for a good and very focused hour. I had the tech written down and I worked on combo execution and punishing. After that, I hit my friends up. The ones I couldn't beat before, I challenged. After a few hours of games, my win percentage was way up. I was winning 4 out of 5 matches - when I was struggling to win 1 out of 5 before. So, I went to bed. The next morning, I practiced with his Hunter variation for another good hour. Then, I put out the challenges again. Now, I was playing different guys - but I had even less success in the past verses these guys. I was consistently winning 8 or 9 in a row before taking a loss.

Now, I'm still nowhere near as good as the guys on my friends list are. I'm good at execution, but I fall into predictable patterns. I just do dumb stuff a lot and against really good players, that gets you beat consistently ... unless you're The Predator - because he is broken.
Click to expand...

As cute as this story is...

...it's anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is useless evidence.

You say you were beating better players than you with Predator. Okay. I accept that.

But how many Predators did they fight before you?

How many hours did they spend in the lab trying to figure out how to get around Predator's tools?

Were they fuzzy-guarding consistently?

Punishing consistently?

Stuffing your wake ups everytime?

Breaking your armor every time?

Until i see four Predators in the top 8 as we saw with Tanya, i reserve judgment.
 
Derptile

Derptile

RIP Ex Smash
Wow, this thread really went to shit.

You guys are almost as bad as the Jacqui community. Fix parry and limit opponent meter build and he'll be fine, all this talk about making him do extra damage and having Ice Aura links is retarted.
 
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champdee

champdee

Noob
unbreakable just feels unfinished to me.

This is a very great video and I'm glad this is front paged. Think about it, at the end of the games life/meta.. do you really want sub-zero to just have a good njk? Really think about this, what did he have in mk9 at the end.. a d4 which would be better if you compared him in his state right now.
 
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IceNinja

IceNinja

Assassin
UsedForGlue said:
Sub Zero absolutely has a 50/50. They are both faster than 16 frames, which is always hard to block in any game on reaction, also, the difference between his B3 (13 frames and his B2 (16 frames), it really isn't much, also, a throw doesn't equate in a 50/50.
Click to expand...
Throws in mk are 50/50's because you have to guess forward or back throw to tech them.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Bomborge said:
He is not broken. The only "nerf" he needs is to get the damage scaling on the slam correctly. Did you also consider these guys may not have matchup experience? Pre-patch Tanya was a whole different monster compared to predator at the moment who IMO is not even top 5 and no where near close to broken.
Click to expand...
One thing I forgot to add. They all thought he was beyond broken - even before I picked him up.

A lot of players are going to pick up Predator and just think they have found their perfect character. I know better.

He needs increases to his damage scaling and to the recovery on BOTH his shoulder cannon AND his trap nets.

As they are right now, they're all reward - no risk.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Rude said:
As cute as this story is...

...it's anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is useless evidence.

You say you were beating better players than you with Predator. Okay. I accept that.

But how many Predators did they fight before you?

How many hours did they spend in the lab trying to figure out how to get around Predator's tools?

Were they fuzzy-guarding consistently?

Punishing consistently?

Stuffing your wake ups everytime?

Breaking your armor every time?

Until i see four Predators in the top 8 as we saw with Tanya, i reserve judgment.
Click to expand...
These guys fuzzy guard and mix up things really well. Its part of why I can't beat 'em. They're in that next tier of player, like not known pro level - but in pro tournaments level.

When I was picking the Hunter variation, those guys knew the matchup pretty well. It didn't matter. It seemed to exacerbate their frustration.

I'm not really trying to sell you on it. Its just a heads up. The next tournament will fill everyone else in more thoroughly.
 
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