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General/Other - Jason Voorhees [Pre-XL] Buffing JASON VOORHEES So He Becomes more Viable

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Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
2,4 is pretty situational, and just not really worth the punish lol. Might as well use clothesline so you're only at -6 instead of 10.

I don't feel Goro is a bad character, but wrong topic for that discussion lol.

The time you get a punish with tele is pretty much if they dial out a string and then you get a whiff punish, can't really get a straight punish with those frames.

Well I was still learning my buttons since I usually go Goro for Mournful, but I did a bit of lab breakdown. You can just walk back after Shadow Kick and her D1 will whiff. she's -6 after Shadow kick, so if she goes for d1 SK then it's basically 16 frames for her to start it back up. Not the greatest situation, but we have options. Online this is definitely way more rough as it comes down to having a few frames to work with at any given time. Have some archives from the other night here with Runway. http://www.twitch.tv/rothschildmafia/v/18697445 (first couple games are a little rusty, had a little hiatus haha, but this clip is all Jason)

We were both pretty much feeling out the matchup, but after some lab work I really don't think it's to bad. More than likely a 4-6, for sure not unwinnable.


@Scott The Scot
I didn't get a notification, good thing I check these threads manually!

Exactly, that's why I said I feel like my entire game is dependent on me whiff punishing her D1. I'll give your matches a look over then have a my run back with Youph to see if I improve. Cheers for the link!
 
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Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
@Scott The Scot
24 sucks ass

doesn't jail with anything and it's -11

you eat armor or get punished. Against KL, both
I use 24. Choke Jails afterwards and it makes it safer... By 1 frame :p But it also ticks, so it turns it into a mini guessing game on block. I don't think it's bad, but you shouldn't use it all the time.

I think people are too concerned on being safe all the time and aren't willing to take a risk. God forbid you do a little conditioning - of KL tries to reversal spin or jump because he thinks grab is coming, you do choke and he's getting hit. Whatever, use your tools however you want. I have success with it/
 

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
I use 24. Choke Jails afterwards and it makes it safer... By 1 frame :p But it also ticks, so it turns it into a mini guessing game on block. I don't think it's bad, but you shouldn't use it all the time.

I think people are too concerned on being safe all the time and aren't willing to take a risk. God forbid you do a little conditioning - of KL tries to reversal spin or jump because he thinks grab is coming, you do choke and he's getting hit. Whatever, use your tools however you want. I have success with it/
you having success doesn't mean you should go around telling ppl that this and that are good, think objectively when proposing something.

There is absolutely no reason for a KL to jump, he always has bars and doesn't risk anything for a FULL COMBO, why should you risk for 7%(bf3) or 13%(dbf2)
god forbid to lab something before posting or at least listen to anyone else
 
I propose these changes for Unstoppable:

+ EX Rise (Corpse Walk) heals 10.00% health at the end of its duration.

+ Punishment's duration is lengthened by two seconds.
+ Rampage's duration is lengthened by four seconds.

+ The recovery time for Corpse Walk and Rampage is reduced by 10 frames. (Total: 28 frames.)
+ The recovery time for Rise and Punishment is reduced by 22 frames. (Total: 24 frames.)
These allow Jason to have a way to activate his buffs while brawling with the opponent, without giving up too much of his momentum.

+ New special move added: Revitalize. (EX: Dead Air.)
Revitalize recovery time is 24 frames, Dead Air is 28 frames. While Revitalize is active, Jason emits a blue vapor from his body; for Dead Air, Jason's model also gains a faded-blue tint. Revitalize builds half a bar of meter over the course of five seconds. Dead Air allows Jason to build twice as much meter from everything for twelve seconds.
? While Corpse Walk is active, Dead Air does not give twice as much meter for taking damage. (A balance measure.)
 
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Eldriken

Guest
so true. Its weird to me that they made freddy a damn good character in mk9 and mkx jason is pretty much agreed by everyone to the the worst character in the game and actually got nerfed (relentless)
The only two good things Jason has received are EX Dark Pursuit activating much faster and dbf2 becoming a true mid. Other than that, LOL at any of the other "buffs".
 
These are requested changes for Relentless, most of this also applies to Unstoppable but I don't fw that variant @YOMI REO @Eldriken :
Allow Jason to cancel his teleport (He just walks into the mist and if you hold down you'll spend a half of his energy bar to cancel)
Allow him to cancel clothesline to close distance and fake out the opponent without spending so much meter to run
Make f2 an 18 frame mid
32d1 should bounce the opponent and 32 should be +2 on block
Make Tight Squeeze's startup slower up to 22 frames so he can connect it on multiple block strings
Make the hit advantage on f44 significantly higher to allow for mid screen comboing off a low
MAKE B122 CANCEL-ABLE
GIVE B3 MORE RANGE
Make standing 2 10 frames startup instead of 11
Keep d4 16 frames startup but turn up the hit advantage on that sorry ass move holy crap lol
Allow Jason to MB clothesline for juggle opportunities
That's all I got for now what do you think?
 

Dinosaur

Data Collecting
One thing jason players have is the element of suprise, since nobody labs against the worst character in the game every combo/tech is like brand new
:DOGE
 

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
What REALLY needs to be done, is change the input for the anti air throw. I can't have DB1 be the worst special and be careful whenever I want to press B1 after crouch block or do a B1 tick grab. Struggling against others is already tough.
Input needs to change or remove the move completely for all I care.

Also, because I haven't seen anyone mention it. Unstoppable needs only one thing. Killing Machine
 
What REALLY needs to be done, is change the input for the anti air throw. I can't have DB1 be the worst special and be careful whenever I want to press B1 after crouch block or do a B1 tick grab. Struggling against others is already tough.
Input needs to change or remove the move completely for all I care.

Also, because I haven't seen anyone mention it. Unstoppable needs only one thing. Killing Machine
God yes. It's super frustrating. The amount of times I've baited a wakeup or go for a whiff punish and get an air grab is ridiculous. Turns from a punish to you getting punished because of a bug
 
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Slippin' Jimmy

I call heads!
I've tried so hard to make this character work but there are so many matchups that are just fucking impossible. His framedata is awful. The startups on everything except b1 and b3 are trash, and even those get stuffed by half the cast. No comboable overheads. No fucking damage until he's almost dead due to how badly he's scaled. I mean literally, you're rolling with 25-30% damage combos at best on Relentless even when finishing with an EX choke (which is pointless). Try to get clever and end midscreens with f+4,4,pursuit and you're rolling with 22% damage. On Jason. Fucking. Voorhees. Then add the fact that so much of his shit is low-profiled and it's just, what's the point? I play him because I love Jason but they made him so fucking bad in this game. If it wasn't for his tick throws and finishing corner combos with Killing Machine I'd give up, it's like the only saving grace for me right now.

He's so fucking bad I'm convinced NRS did it on purpose.
 
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NRS does not know how to make a grappler, in fact, I'm convinced they don't even understand the concept of grapplers. It doesn't make sense to have no options from full screen, but then ALSO be too slow to do anything when you finally get in too! It would at least sort of make sense if only the big slow characters has armor, but EVERYONE does. Furthermore, he actually does less damage than most of the rest of the cast. This design doesn't make any sense at all. While I acknowledge I'm a nobody on TYM, I've been playing grapplers exclusively for a decade, so here's my two cents.

1.) a 6 frame down 1.
Reason: It is way too stupid to finally close the distance only to be hit out of every single move you have. He needs to be a threat up close, there should be a reason everyone wants to try to get away from him. Currently you can either zone him or just get close and push your fast buttons or even just armor through whatever he has.

2.) command grabs (or AT LEAST ex command grabs) should could as two very fast hits (thus negating armor).
** Every command grab character variation should be this way, not just Jason **

Reason: Command grabs already get beat by backdashes, jumping (in any direction) and moves that make your character count as "off the ground." It blows my mind that armor beats them too. NRS is the ONLY fighting game company that doesn't have command grabs beat armor. Furthermore, the command grab itself is not without risk. If it lands I might get roughly 20%, but if it doesn't you might get 30%+ off of me during my recovery. The risk/reward is very skewed here. This game ALWAYS benefits the fast character as they're the only ones that can hit twice (beating armor) before most armored attacks come out. Currently there is literally NOTHING Jason can do vs. armor other than to block it. This makes the Jason player the one who has to be scared when he's up close and his opponent has a bar.

3.) either combos off of overhead and low starters OR significantly increased damage.
Reason: Hey I'm all for playing characters with low options, but if I'm gonna have low options I need BIG damage to offset them! Kung Lao and Tanya have two million options and STILL do more damage per BnB than Jason does. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why they're top tier in this game and Jason is in the basement.

4.) either increased recovery and no start up, or increased start up and no recovery to Killing Machine (his armor move)
Reason: I acknowledge that this move can be very strong, but you can get hit out of the slow start up, and also eat a full combo when the move ends. From my experience, more often than not if you DON'T get hit out of the start up, it signals to your opponent that this is the time to just jump away backwards til it ends, and once it does you get punished for not properly pressuring them. Like I said, either don't let me get the move off in the first place and make it scary, or make it scary and full punish me for not pressuring right, don't leave it where they can do both!

Anyway, that's all I got, I think even just the first two would make a substantial difference in Jason's strength. I hope someone sees this, I'd love to see Jason be both viable AND fun because currently he's neither.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
NRS does not know how to make a grappler, in fact, I'm convinced they don't even understand the concept of grapplers. It doesn't make sense to have no options from full screen, but then ALSO be too slow to do anything when you finally get in too! It would at least sort of make sense if only the big slow characters has armor, but EVERYONE does. Furthermore, he actually does less damage than most of the rest of the cast. This design doesn't make any sense at all. While I acknowledge I'm a nobody on TYM, I've been playing grapplers exclusively for a decade, so here's my two cents.

1.) a 6 frame down 1.
Reason: It is way too stupid to finally close the distance only to be hit out of every single move you have. He needs to be a threat up close, there should be a reason everyone wants to try to get away from him. Currently you can either zone him or just get close and push your fast buttons or even just armor through whatever he has.

2.) command grabs (or AT LEAST ex command grabs) should could as two very fast hits (thus negating armor).
** Every command grab character variation should be this way, not just Jason **

Reason: Command grabs already get beat by backdashes, jumping (in any direction) and moves that make your character count as "off the ground." It blows my mind that armor beats them too. NRS is the ONLY fighting game company that doesn't have command grabs beat armor. Furthermore, the command grab itself is not without risk. If it lands I might get roughly 20%, but if it doesn't you might get 30%+ off of me during my recovery. The risk/reward is very skewed here. This game ALWAYS benefits the fast character as they're the only ones that can hit twice (beating armor) before most armored attacks come out. Currently there is literally NOTHING Jason can do vs. armor other than to block it. This makes the Jason player the one who has to be scared when he's up close and his opponent has a bar.

3.) either combos off of overhead and low starters OR significantly increased damage.
Reason: Hey I'm all for playing characters with low options, but if I'm gonna have low options I need BIG damage to offset them! Kung Lao and Tanya have two million options and STILL do more damage per BnB than Jason does. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why they're top tier in this game and Jason is in the basement.

4.) either increased recovery and no start up, or increased start up and no recovery to Killing Machine (his armor move)
Reason: I acknowledge that this move can be very strong, but you can get hit out of the slow start up, and also eat a full combo when the move ends. From my experience, more often than not if you DON'T get hit out of the start up, it signals to your opponent that this is the time to just jump away backwards til it ends, and once it does you get punished for not properly pressuring them. Like I said, either don't let me get the move off in the first place and make it scary, or make it scary and full punish me for not pressuring right, don't leave it where they can do both!

Anyway, that's all I got, I think even just the first two would make a substantial difference in Jason's strength. I hope someone sees this, I'd love to see Jason be both viable AND fun because currently he's neither.
His d1 would need two buffs: The one you suggested and a buff to its range. It has pathetic range.
 
His d1 would need two buffs: The one you suggested and a buff to its range. It has pathetic range.
First of all getting in is supposed to be difficult for grapplers, I've got no problems with that and even in his current low tier state I can get within range of his d1. That being said, increasing the range AND making it 6 frames while still tickable into command grabs would make it completely OP.
 
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