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Match-up Discussion Pre-Evo 2014 Aquaman MU Chart

A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
WoWo is probably better off in shield stance vs Aquaman, that can cause him issues, she also can pretty much trap him in the corner with B23 forever.
I think the safe meterless shield bashes, + frames and 5050s in shield stance are more equipped to deal with AM than Lasso stance.
 
xKhaoTik

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Agreed with the frost MU.

I only thought he to her IMO. Didnt know he had other bad ones
 
Derptile

Derptile

RIP Ex Smash
ISF_AWG_Indecisive said:
What are you actual reasons to have Shazam winning the Aquaman Match up?
Click to expand...
Well, I'm on my phone right now so please excuse any grammatical or common errors.

The main and most important reason in which Shazam beats Aquaman is that Shazam absolutely destroys Aquaman on wakeup. Everyone knows just how terrible Aquaman's wakeups are, even KTP went on a little rant on how Aquaman can't get off the ground. Shazam has been surprisingly blessed in this MU because he has a plethora of options to butt-fuck Aquaman on wakeup. Lemme list some things that he can do:

CMD grab on wakeup
Read wakeup and punish after blocking it.
Allow wakeup to whiff and punish it.
Cross up and can do j3/j2 into CMD grab which is tremendously fucked up in this MU.

In short: Shazam can mind-fuck the Aquaman player on wakeup because we have so many more options to continue the hard knockdown vortex.

Now that I finished discussing about wakeups, I can go into several other reasons on why shazam beats Aquaman.

1) Shazam's movement is one of the best in the game, and he has no trouble getting in against Aquaman.
2) Shazam is one of the few characters that can reliably punish Trident rush.
3) Shazam's b2 and CMD Grab have excellent range which allow's him to bypass some of Aquaman's footsies that the rest of the cast find hard to deal with.
4) Whiff punishing with b2 and CMD grab is also easy so the aquaman player can't be pressing buttons the whole time.
5) B2 and CMD grab can open the Aquaman player up, since one is an overhead that goes half screen and the other is command grab that has very good range, is very fast, and leads to a full combo. If the aquaman player knows this, he/she is obviously gonna start being jittery and pressing buttons and that's where point "4" comes in, you can make a smart read on when ever their gonna press buttons and slowly walk back, and when they whiff whatever their doing, you can whiff punish.
6) Teleport means Shazam can get off the ground free and judging by the situation, can either get in or run away from aquaman. It's essentially a free Forward/Back dash on wakeup and it's ALMOST unpunishable.

In short: Shazam is allowed to play his game against Aquaman, but Aquaman can't play his game to the fullest against Shazam.

I like arguments, so if you have any please provide them.

EGP Wonder_Chef
 
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R

RIF

Apprentice
Aquaman vs Sinestro might be 7-3 in Aquaman's favor

- D2 stops AoT pressure
- FTD punishes shackles and boulders from full screen
- FTD punishes blocked Fear Blasts at 1/2 screen away
- FTD stops Sinestro from charging trait
- FTD does more chip than Fear Blast. In a game of attrition, Aquman will win.
- Sinestro cannot punish Trident Rush
- Aquman's trait shuts down Sinestro's Vortex
- Sinestro cannot go for B13 against Aquaman. This means his damage usually comes from B12->Shackles which is far less damaging than his normal BNB. (Since Trait will stop the Vortex)
- Aquaman's Ji2 beats out Sinestro's D2 (Sinestro's D2 is over-rated compared)
- Sinestro cannot safely backdash after a blocked B12 due to the range and reach of Aquman's normals/specials
 
derOeler

derOeler

Death comes to all!
A F0xy Grampa said:
WoWo is probably better off in shield stance vs Aquaman, that can cause him issues, she also can pretty much trap him in the corner with B23 forever.
I think the safe meterless shield bashes, + frames and 5050s in shield stance are more equipped to deal with AM than Lasso stance.
Click to expand...
You mean safe meterless shield bashes, because you can parry afterwards?
Also, to which mixup do you refer in ss? B2,3/b2,1?
 
Justice

Justice

Warrior
I agree with the Catwoman number but it's a hard 6/4 for her. It takes her almost completely out of her comfort zone and if the Selina player doesn't know the matchup, it could look positively 9/1 or even 10/0.
 
Indecisive

Indecisive

We'll burn you all—that is your fate!
Derptile said:
Well, I'm on my phone right now so please excuse any grammatical or common errors.

The main and most important reason in which Shazam beats Aquaman is that Shazam absolutely destroys Aquaman on wakeup. Everyone knows just how terrible Aquaman's wakeups are, even KTP went on a little rant on how Aquaman can't get off the ground. Shazam has been surprisingly blessed in this MU because he has a plethora of options to butt-fuck Aquaman on wakeup. Lemme list some things that he can do:

CMD grab on wakeup
Read wakeup and punish after blocking it.
Allow wakeup to whiff and punish it.
Cross up and can do j3/j2 into CMD grab which is tremendously fucked up in this MU.

In short: Shazam can mind-fuck the Aquaman player on wakeup because we have so many more options to continue the hard knockdown vortex.

Now that I finished discussing about wakeups, I can go into several other reasons on why shazam beats Aquaman.

1) Shazam's movement is one of the best in the game, and he has no trouble getting in against Aquaman.
2) Shazam is one of the few characters that can reliably punish Trident rush.
3) Shazam's b2 and CMD Grab have excellent range which allow's him to bypass some of Aquaman's footsies that the rest of the cast find hard to deal with.
4) Whiff punishing with b2 and CMD grab is also easy so the aquaman player can't be pressing buttons the whole time.
5) B2 and CMD grab can open the Aquaman player up, since one is an overhead that goes half screen and the other is command grab that has very good range, is very fast, and leads to a full combo. If the aquaman player knows this, he/she is obviously gonna start being jittery and pressing buttons and that's where point "4" comes in, you can make a smart read on when ever their gonna press buttons and slowly walk back, and when they whiff whatever their doing, you can whiff punish.
6) Teleport means Shazam can get off the ground free and judging by the situation, can either get in or run away from aquaman. It's essentially a free Forward/Back dash on wakeup and it's ALMOST unpunishable.

In short: Shazam is allowed to play his game against Aquaman, but Aquaman can't play his game to the fullest against Shazam.

I like arguments, so if you have any please provide them.

EGP Wonder_Chef
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A lot of the cast has terrible WU options. But that doesn't mean that Shazam Beats all of them. Im pretty sure Aquaman can do a lot that the cast have trouble with. I think Aquaman is able to punish B2 Torpedo which sucks for Shazam if he can. From the Deep can do an easy job at punishing Shazams WU Teleport game. And Aquaman does have Trident Rush as a selectable WU option. I never thought i would see the day that some decided to Upplay Shazam. I think the number that Theo gave is actually pretty generous but it works imo.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I can agree with Joker being a 6-4 (I would push it to a 6.5-3.5, but I don't like that crap lol). I think it sucks trying to open Aquaman up with Joker, but once you knock him down, Aquaman struggles to recover in this matchup. His absurd d2, trait, superior footsies, and the fact that 212 whiffs on him when he blocks low hurt Joker's chances against him pretty significantly.
 
Derptile

Derptile

RIP Ex Smash
ISF_AWG_Indecisive said:
A lot of the cast has terrible WU options. But that doesn't mean that Shazam Beats all of them. Im pretty sure Aquaman can do a lot that the cast have trouble with. I think Aquaman is able to punish B2 Torpedo which sucks for Shazam if he can. From the Deep can do an easy job at punishing Shazams WU Teleport game. And Aquaman does have Trident Rush as a selectable WU option. I never thought i would see the day that some decided to Upplay Shazam. I think the number that Theo gave is actually pretty generous but it works imo.
Click to expand...
Well, alot of the cast's WU options aren't as bad as Aquaman's. Idk about the b2 torpedo thing since I don't really use it, but I think it just barely gets by. I seriously doubt FTD can punish the WU teleport unless you're talking about when he's reappearing. Shazam doesn't even need to exclusively use WU tele, he has WU CMd grab and to a much lesser extent WU torpedo plus FTD isn't even safe and is punishable from halfscreen. As for the trident rush WU option, I don't really see what you're trying to say since crossup>trident rush or any other one of his WU. Oh and I forgot to mention in my original post that Aquaman's trait is kinda pointless in this matchup outside of beating f22

I'm not a Shazam upplayer, I'm just the original Shazam player trying to keep it real. I have no problem in admitting where Shazam sucks huge cawk, like the vanilla BA vs shazam MU, a solid 8-2 and I will say that any BA player who had ever lost to a shazam player back then should've just quit the game.

EDIT: Yes on my phone again.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
DarthArma said:
So are we gonna put these all together one day and make a tier list that doesn't just come off the top of someones head (mine included) but from actual numbers?
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Yup, there's already a calculated tier list based on a combination of MU charts.

But imo none of these numbers are set in stone and a tier list still means little right now. There are still too many unknowns postpatch and characters that still need to be pushed to their limits in every MU.
 
Glass Sword

Glass Sword

Nobody
I agree with Tom Raven goes 5-5. Ducky thinks its Aquaman's favor since he plays people who he can't regulate unlike 95% of other players. The match is very give and take. Raven can chip Aquaman just as well as Aquaman can chip her.
I really can't give a more articulate argument right now, but yeah. Tom is normally right when he gets to clarify so I'm sticking with him.
 
Tom Brady

Tom Brady

Champion
Some of Theo's numbers are the popular opinion. Scorpion is listed as 7-3 but we saw that Theo did not know what to do vs a Scorpion who knew how to fight Aquaman. Theo CLEARLY did not know the mu yet posts the score of a match we all saw he didn't know.

This is not a knock on Theo, he is an amazing player. However, unless I can do it myself I don't give a score in my personal mu until I play at least 500 or more games vs many, many, MANY players in just ONE mu.
 
Glass Sword

Glass Sword

Nobody
Tom Brady said:
Some of Theo's numbers are the popular opinion. Scorpion is listed as 7-3 but we saw that Theo did not know what to do vs a Scorpion who knew how to fight Aquaman. Theo CLEARLY did not know the mu yet posts the score of a match we all saw he didn't know.

This is not a knock on Theo, he is an amazing player. However, unless I can do it myself I don't give a score in my personal mu until I play at least 500 or more games vs many, many, MANY players in just ONE mu.
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When I get back to the states I want my 1000 matches. I know you received my messages.
 
EMPEROR_THEO

EMPEROR_THEO

I only use characters with wakeup scoops.
Tom Brady said:
Some of Theo's numbers are the popular opinion. Scorpion is listed as 7-3 but we saw that Theo did not know what to do vs a Scorpion who knew how to fight Aquaman. Theo CLEARLY did not know the mu yet posts the score of a match we all saw he didn't know.

This is not a knock on Theo, he is an amazing player. However, unless I can do it myself I don't give a score in my personal mu until I play at least 500 or more games vs many, many, MANY players in just ONE mu.
Click to expand...
Just because I lose to a Scorpion player does not mean I can't think its heavily in Aquaman's favor. I figured out ways for Aquaman to handle that matchup ever since and I have no problem admitting I was outplayed.
 
EMPRESS_SunFire

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
I still think Zatanna loses 3-7, he has everything to annoy us, like real talk ;)

Also i agree with WW being 5-5, even tho WW has to work harder for this 5-5 than him.

Hawkgirl 5-5 IMO
 
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