Poll: Tournament Play + 3 Character Variation Locking

[EndofGameBoss]

The winner should stay character and variation lock.

 

[G4S KT]

If Sektor/Cyrax weren't allowed to change to human costumes because of different properties than variation lock is obvious.

What the game really needs is the ability to blind pick your variation. I guess this is unrelated though

 

[trufenix]

But it prevents the loser from being counter-picked by allowing the loser to counter-pick himself. I just don't understand why there has to be a built-in rule to grant advantage to one player or the other. In any sense.

When players sit down for the first match of a series... where does counter-picking come in? Why does it have to change before match 2, 3, etc.?

And again, it's beside the point in general, but MK specifically has a built-in feature on the select-screen if you don't want your opponent to see which character you select.

You're ignoring the core component that the loser is DOWN a game. There is no "advantage" because you paid a game for the right to switch. Similarly, your opponent gets the same option when/if he loses, so its fair. Without variation lock you are granting the winner the opportunity to counter pick without the paying the entry fee of losing a game. This is why the continuation rule is such a piece of shit for fighters.

I am for variation lock. A super art, an ultra, even shit like air blocking or running is almost inconsequential change in comparison to a character literally changing half his movelist. Blind selecting or forcing the winner to choose first is just slapping a bandaid on the problem that only exists because you allow variation select.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Exactly. Counter-picking is part of the game.

So why are you taking that option away from one of the players and only letting one player have the ability? Because he lost?

And if both players sit down for match 1 of a series and are both free to counter-pick at the start, how is one player at advantage? Meaning... you say you don't want the loser of match 1 to be counter-picked before match 2.... but both players have the same opportunity to pick whatever character they want. I don't get it. I still hear what you guys are saying... "throw the loser a bone." I just don't understand why.

 

[SaltShaker]

I don't think there should be any lock at all ever if the loser wants to switch characters/stages/etc. As long as the winner picks 1st.

 

[HeroesNZ]

I'm not really sure why this is even up-to-debate lol. What we've always used is a character lock and if each variation is its own character then obviously we use a variation lock.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I'm not really sure why this is even up-to-debate lol. What we've always used is a character lock....

Exactly.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I'm not really sure why this is even up-to-debate lol. What we've always used is a character lock and if each variation is its own character then obviously we use a variation lock.

this would defeat the purpose of the variations

I agree with KT

I wouldnt' mind my opponent knowing what character I chose...... as long as my variation was blind.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

That's not competitive it's handicapping and it goes against the very spirit of competion which is two near-equally matched opponents trying to win. Whether it's "hype" or not has nothing to do with competition.

Yes it would be more interesting to make the heavy weight boxing champion fight his challenger with one hand tied behind his back, but they don't do that because it's obviously retarded as is this "tradition"

 

[Euphoric]

The only downside I see regarding variation lock is, this community won't really get to showcase the variety of characters and playstyles in a best of 3 match, and hardly any variations would be used. And I don't think this is what the developers want the game to be.

If anything you should be prepared to fight all 3 classes, and have knowledge on what your own variations do vs MUs.

 

[HeroesNZ]

this would defeat the purpose of the variations

I agree with KT

I wouldnt' mind my opponent knowing what character I chose...... as long as my variation was blind.

No it wouldn't, I'm hyped about having different variations because it promotes character loyalism. I'll give you a scenario:
16Bit is down 2-1 in loser's finals at Evo 2015 (

). He mains Cassie Cage and knowing 16Bit, he is definitely not going to change characters. But it turns out that Cassie (Hollywood) - Kotal Kahn(War God) is a 1-9 MU! So what does he do? Well he switches to Cassie (Spec Ops) which is a 5-5 with War God and ends up winning 3-2 whilst remaining a character loyalist, using only Cassie Cage

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The only downside I see regarding variation lock is, this community won't really get to showcase the variety of characters and playstyles in a best of 3 match, and hardly any variations would be used. And I don't think this is what the developers want the game to be.

If anything you should be prepared to fight all 3 classes, and have knowledge on what your own variations do vs MUs.

exactly

well said sir.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

No it wouldn't, I'm hyped about having different variations because it promotes character loyalism. I'll give you a scenario:
16Bit is down 2-1 in loser's finals at Evo 2015 (

). He mains Cassie Cage and knowing 16Bit, he is definitely not going to change characters. But it turns out that Cassie (Hollywood) - Kotal Kahn(War God) is a 1-9 MU! So what does he do? Well he switches to Cassie (Spec Ops) which is a 5-5 with War God and ends up winning 3-2 whilst remaining a character loyalist, using only Cassie Cage

why would the opponent stick with the war god if another variation is a better MU?

this just premotes rampent counter picking and slows the flow of matches down.

 

[HeroesNZ]

why would the opponent stick with the war god if another variation is a better MU?

this just premotes rampent counter picking and slows the flow of matches down.

This shows why it's pointless to argue this now, because we don't know how steeply a different variation changes a MU. What if all other variations 5-5 Spec Ops Cassie as well? Well we don't know yet.

 

[trufenix]

The only downside I see regarding variation lock is, this community won't really get to showcase the variety of characters and playstyles in a best of 3 match, and hardly any variations would be used. And I don't think this is what the developers want the game to be.

If anything you should be prepared to fight all 3 classes, and have knowledge on what your own variations do vs MUs.

How many people are really going to learn all three variations of a character when they find one that suits them? If one variation is a grappler and the other is a zoner, I am not (necesarily) going to learn the Zoner version just because it looks like my favorite grappling character. I'm FAR more likely to learn Kotal's grapple style and Torr's grapple style than all three Torr's.

Variations is a nice touch for letting people play more characters the way they like to play the game, but its not going to change the fact that I'm no good / don't like zoning / keepaway. And I'm not about to learn three versions of Sub Zero just because they're called Sub Zero when they all play completely different. Did every Sub Zero main keep a pocket Noob because technically its the same guy?

 

[Euphoric]

How many people are really going to learn all three variations of a character when they find one that suits them? If one variation is a grappler and the other is a zoner, I am not (necesarily) going to learn the Zoner version just because it looks like my favorite grappling character. I'm FAR more likely to learn Kotal's grapple style and Torr's grapple style than all three Torr's.

Variations is a nice touch for letting people play more characters the way they like to play the game, but its not going to change the fact that I'm no good / don't like zoning / keepaway. And I'm not about to learn three versions of Sub Zero just because they're called Sub Zero when they all play completely different. Did every Sub Zero main keep a pocket Noob because technically its the same guy?

Idk

 

[Brutal Chimney]

Such an illogical system.

only way I see it being fair is after a match both get to chose if they desire. if there is no hidden select You separate them for a sec hand them a card and say write the character you want on there, basing it on their knowledge of the opponents playstyle and preferred characters, whole process should take less than 10 seconds. that is being truly competitive not this whining that someone is "too good" crap.

 

[deathblooms2k4]

I think the point is... to make the fight a more even match. Aka, more hype.

No one wants to watch someone flawless someone twice. The more competitive the match, the more hype it becomes. So if the loser needs a counterpick of Kenshi vs a Sub to have a chance, he has that option.

It started at the cabinets, but I don't think that's why it continued.

I agree that the current system of enabling the loser to counter pick temporarily handicaps the winner and probably decreases the chances of players getting 2-o'd. That said, that's a very casual mindset and not a competitive mindset. Competitive mindset is win at all cost and show no mercy.

As has been said, there is no drawback to hidden select, it is fair to both players and does not handicap either player. The only true issue I see with it is players making mistakes when picking and ending up with a character they did not want. But that's an execution issue and you don't get mulligans for missed execution in competitive play.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I agree that the current system of enabling the loser to counter pick temporarily handicaps the winner and probably decreases the chances of players getting 2-o'd. That said, that's a very casual mindset and not a competitive mindset. Competitive mindset is win at all cost and show no mercy.

As has been said, there is no drawback to hidden select, it is fair to both players and does not handicap either player. The only true issue I see with it is players making mistakes when picking and ending up with a character they did not want. But that's an execution issue and you don't get mulligans for missed execution in competitive play.

Um, counterpicking is the definition of winning at all costs lol

 

[haketh]

We are given a very unique thing here.....

It's not a unique thing, we've already had games with the mechanic before -_-

I'm not really sure why this is even up-to-debate lol. What we've always used is a character lock and if each variation is its own character then obviously we use a variation lock.

Because we have evidence of other games with the mechanic doing things differently from how people say it should go -_-

 

[Brutal Chimney]

counter-picking in this regard is retarded because it creates an unfair advantage to the loser, if both can do it thats fine but there is a problem in that two players cannot counter pick each other at the same time. whover hits select first cannot counter pick his opponent giving his opponent an unfair advantage.

the reason for the BS is because you don't want the matches to end quickly, you want more hype, and stupid reasons like that. whenever any actual compeditive sport does that they get so much hell its not even funny so why in the hell is that accepted in the FGC

 

[Ninj]

Um, counterpicking is the definition of winning at all costs lol

No...counterpicking is a user-created method of handicapping the winner. Quite different as it's completely outside the game. I think deathblooms2k4 is saying why not just use the (probably) in-game method of hidden character select which is fair in that neither player has advantage?

 

[Ilthuain]

I think we should wait to see how distinct the three variations actually are.

IMO, the "tradition" argument and the "let's do it like Street Fighter" argument aren't compelling. MKX is its own game and tournament rules should be catered to its strengths. As such, we should at least try many variations of rules before making a choice.

 

[True Grave]

I picked character lock on accident before reading, but I believe the winner should stay the same (variation lock).

 

[d3v]

I think we should wait to see how distinct the three variations actually are.

IMO, the "tradition" argument and the "let's do it like Street Fighter" argument aren't compelling. MKX is its own game and tournament rules should be catered to its strengths. As such, we should at least try many variations of rules before making a choice.

But there's a point in showing how other games with similar mechanics have handled it as this kind of thing isn't exactly new. As I have previously stated, Arcana Heart and Melty Blood, both of which have similar options (arcanas and moon phases) both allow the sub-option. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Last Blade 2 did not allow for the winner to select from Power/Speed based on how broken the game and some options were.

No...counterpicking is a user-created method of handicapping the winner. Quite different as it's completely outside the game. I think deathblooms2k4 is saying why not just use the (probably) in-game method of hidden character select which is fair in that neither player has advantage?

Because counter picking has been accepted by the community as a legitimate tactic. Not like you can truly stop it anyway. I mean, what's to stop someone from picking based on who they knows their opponents play as.

In any case, you forget the fact that the loser being able to counter pick is balanced out by the possibility that they risk getting counter picked with a hard counter in the next game. I mean, this it at the very least a best of 3 so it's more than just one game.