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PND Ketchups Lobo buff suggestions: Reasonable

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
lobo does better gl than aquaman. free low chain punishes on lift into vortex all day... aquaman is good but tom is only person winning with him. aquaman is overrated by a lot

what lobos have u seen on stream go to tourneys? ive seen 0. so until they show up we dont know how good lobo is. give players time to learn lobo because hes a dlc and have not been out as long as others
You've seen zero because he simply doesn't compete man. Reo tried mad hard to main him and had to drop him because he knew it wasn't worth entering a tournament with him. Two weeks is plenty of time to figure out how a character functions. You aren't seeing him in tournaments because the people entering actually want a chance to win, not because they are all trying to figure him out still; that's the problem... they have.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
btw, put me firmly in the "He's heavily underrated." At this point I definitely won't say he's top, and yes he does have trouble landing command throw on certain characters, but simple things like AA 3 xx bf3 or a2a into 21 xx bf3 are all it takes to start a mixup game that is extremely threatening when he has meter. As much as I respect REO's opinion, I feel he's a bit biased in this regard. Putting him definitively below Shazam when both characters have similar string into special/command throw mixups (Except his is just command throw or escape), and he has far better AAs. You can argue that Shazam has better average meterless output off of practical starters and better meter building, but I don't feel that's enough to definitively put him above Lobo.

As I mentioned in my post in the other threads, one of the biggest things is fixing his options off of traited low shot, because its utility is rather poor at longer ranges compared to most characters in the game. It feels wonky and underdeveloped to me. And yeah, it's not a vortex, just a strong mixup. What makes Akuma's vortex what it is is the fact that most options aren't really punishable, or only by specific characters. If there's anything resembling a vortex in this game, it's Batgirl's combo into restand 111, which puts the opponent in a stagger that absolutely forces them to guesses block high or low and loops into itself. Every character has the option to make Lobo guess wrong and take some degree of damage.
Which is why I never mentioned what tools he has that need to be tweaked, I stated he has tools to get the job done, it's more the fact that Lobo can't really get much of it going against a smart opponent that knows the matchup due to the issues I stated in the buff suggestions.

You won't be able to get any of it going if your armor doesn't work properly, you have to keep sacrificing ground and damage for trait, and if your strings don't connect as they should.

He's a solid character, just way too easy to shut down for silly reasons.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
You've seen zero because he simply doesn't compete man. Reo tried mad hard to main him and had to drop him because he knew it wasn't worth entering a tournament with him. Two weeks is plenty of time to figure out how a character functions. You aren't seeing him in tournaments because the people entering actually want a chance to win, not because they are all trying to figure him out still; that's the problem... they have.
Not quite, I was actually going to use Lobo at Colosseum Games, but Lobo was Banned.

I'm confident I can take Lobo and do well with him, it's not that he can't win, but he just has things that make no sense. The characters HAS tools. But he also has holes that make some matches harder than they should be, not that they're unwinnable.
 

Dulllyanna

You're going to shoot guns at me?
Agreed. There's a lot they could tweak, but just stacking trait and having better effects on shots that aren't low would go very far. The only useful one is low shot, and that's pretty much only if you're right in their face and haven't sacrificed it yet. I feel his oki is strong enough that he shouldn't need to be able to start things too easily, but right now there are matchups where he just ends up being suffocated the entire time and his tools + damage output aren't quite adequate enough for him to be able to win reliably. I'd use him in tournament, but to be frank there are too many characters that are more stable to justify it to me.

Even so, I can understand why NRS is being careful overall with buffs for now though. Even when their goal is to make everybody feel somewhat OP, going batshit with buffs that could potentially end up ruining the game or completely invalidating other characters is definitely something to be careful about.
 

Tavaski

Get tough, or die
Dear NRS, please make all the characters brain dead. We sincerely give no fucks in adapting and we demand buffs just for the lulz :joker:
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Not quite, I was actually going to use Lobo at Colosseum Games, but Lobo was Banned.

I'm confident I can take Lobo and do well with him, it's not that he can't win, but he just has things that make no sense. The characters HAS tools. But he also has holes that make some matches harder than they should be, not that they're unwinnable.
I guess, but I didn't see a single one at ECT5 (where he was legal) and I watched for most of the day. I agree that he has potential, but as you said earlier, he has problems that are holding him back from the higher tiers, especially when people know the matchup. I think the best bet at fixing that is two simple buffs: Apply the armor on MB charge right away, not when the chain hits (improves wakeup game and helps with zoners) and improve the recovery after low pump nuke (helps that trait just got fixed and would increase the damage a bit if you can chain into more than b1 to get into command throw, which is god damn impossible lol). Whaddya think?
 

Rabid Justice

Your Soul Is Mine
i wish his dash went under more projectials. but i guess armor on his mc charge would fix that.
i to think its dumb that you cant stack trait. with its start up time its almost worthless for only 1 shot.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Agreed. There's a lot they could tweak, but just stacking trait and having better effects on shots that aren't low would go very far. The only useful one is low shot, and that's pretty much only if you're right in their face and haven't sacrificed it yet. I feel his oki is strong enough that he shouldn't need to be able to start things too easily, but right now there are matchups where he just ends up being suffocated the entire time and his tools + damage output aren't quite adequate enough for him to be able to win reliably. I'd use him in tournament, but to be frank there are too many characters that are more stable to justify it to me.

Even so, I can understand why NRS is being careful overall with buffs for now though. Even when their goal is to make everybody feel somewhat OP, going batshit with buffs that could potentially end up ruining the game or completely invalidating other characters is definitely something to be careful about.
My point about the shells is that there are times in a match where you have loads of dead space, you could easily stack some nuclear shells during that time, even taking a few projectile trades to do so, it means you won't have to sacrifice anything later, whilst still being able to enforce nuclear low mixups from one setup to another.

Again, I think I keep having to say the same thing over and over, but the things that I mentioned are issues that it feels he straight up shouldn't have. Against a smart opponent, Lobo doesn't feel remotely OP, he can still win if you're smart about it, but you have to work incredibly hard just for the purpose of having to tip toe around holes that shouldn't be there.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
i wish his dash went under more projectials. but i guess armor on his mc charge would fix that.
i to think its dumb that you cant stack trait. with its start up time its almost worthless for only 1 shot.
It's not worthless at all, it's just counter productive that you have to sacrifice ground you covered/damage/setups by reloading. When you could stack the shells during any dead space.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Trait stacking also interests me... not sure if it would make it too OP or not... hard to say, but it kinda feels like you should be able to load at least two considering the gun he's using. What's that NRS? A flavor justification? Now you simply can't resist!

Lol yeah, don't think it would break him by any means, but might up his damage output a little too much because the trait seems to scale weird as is.

Also, I know everyone says they don't want the range on his shotgun messed with.... but come on. It feels ridiculous when that this is going off four feet from someones face and does nothing... I think the best thing they can do with it is scale the damage based on range. That would be friggin awesome- basically what a shotgun is like in reality, makes sense, and certainly wouldn't break him. Make it miss at full screen and scale up from there based on zones. Gives him a little more pressure, but only to keep him a little more safe where he currently gets raped. This would have to come without any improvement to the MB on the charge though. Thoughts?
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Trait stacking also interests me... not sure if it would make it too OP or not... hard to say, but it kinda feels like you should be able to load at least two considering the gun he's using. What's that NRS? A flavor justification? Now you simply can't resist!

Lol yeah, don't think it would break him by any means, but might up his damage output a little too much because the trait seems to scale weird as is.

Also, I know everyone says they don't want the range on his shotgun messed with.... but come on. It feels ridiculous when that this is going off four feet from someones face and does nothing... I think the best thing they can do with it is scale the damage based on range. That would be friggin awesome- basically what a shotgun is like in reality, makes sense, and certainly wouldn't break him. Make it miss at full screen and scale up from there based on zones. Gives him a little more pressure, but only to keep him a little more safe where he currently gets raped. This would have to come without any improvement to the MB on the charge though. Thoughts?
I don't feel like his shotgun needs extra range, as it's not really a projectile in my eyes. He has other moves that cover more ground as it is. The actual hitbox on the shotgun is really good, especially when you have the opponent in the corner.

I don't think multiple nuclear shots is an issue, it wouldnt be too much considering he only gets around an extra 4% in most situations. If you're trading with projectiles for a nuclear shot, which happens often, you've lost that 4% through getting the shot to begin with.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I don't feel like his shotgun needs extra range, as it's not really a projectile in my eyes. He has other moves that cover more ground as it is. The actual hitbox on the shotgun is really good, especially when you have the opponent in the corner.

I don't think multiple nuclear shots is an issue, it wouldnt be too much considering he only gets around an extra 4% in most situations. If you're trading with projectiles for a nuclear shot, which happens often, you've lost that 4% through getting the shot to begin with.
Not to mention people like Black Adam and the "underrated" Aquaman can full combo punish you off a projectile depending on their range. My shotgun suggestions are a little more for flavor I guess, I'd be fine with the MB charge fix. Just think its awkward that it wiffs so close... Lobo is a better shot than that lol.
 

Dulllyanna

You're going to shoot guns at me?
My point about the shells is that there are times in a match where you have loads of dead space, you could easily stack some nuclear shells during that time, even taking a few projectile trades to do so, it means you won't have to sacrifice anything later, whilst still being able to enforce nuclear low mixups from one setup to another.

Again, I think I keep having to say the same thing over and over, but the things that I mentioned are issues that it feels he straight up shouldn't have. Against a smart opponent, Lobo doesn't feel remotely OP, he can still win if you're smart about it, but you have to work incredibly hard just for the purpose of having to tip toe around holes that shouldn't be there.
Sorry, I just see him having only one use for spending trait as poor, boring and lazy design on NRS' part. My apologies that I wasn't more clear, you're 100% right in saying that just being able to stack shots would be enough. Still, I strongly feel that in addition to that, doing something for his other shots when trait is on could go a long way without being unreasonable if NRS is smart. All I can think of at the moment is more range on trait'd high shot (Not fullscreen like some asshats are asking) to justify ever using it outside of jailing after 21 on block, but there's plenty of room for discussion and creativity.
 

LOCO

DADDY BARAKA
uhhhh... lobo is good... he doesn't really need game changing buffs

ketchup is the only person i think i can agree on with the changes he mentioned because they more like tweaks than buffs

how did it go to lobo is shit tier to now lobo is flawless?
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Sorry, I just see him having only one use for spending trait as poor, boring and lazy design on NRS' part. My apologies that I wasn't more clear, you're 100% right in saying that just being able to stack shots would be enough. Still, I strongly feel that in addition to that, doing something for his other shots when trait is on could go a long way without being unreasonable if NRS is smart. All I can think of at the moment is more range on trait'd high shot (Not fullscreen like some asshats are asking) to justify ever using it outside of jailing after 21 on block, but there's plenty of room for discussion and creativity.
I don't see the MB high shot having slightly more range as unreasonable, The second shot already has slightly more range, it's just unlikely to land if the first shot misses anyway. Just feels like an odd design choice to me.
 

Dulllyanna

You're going to shoot guns at me?
I meant high shot with trait loaded, not high MB shot. On that topic though, 4% chip on block and being safe against Superman super if it's blocked is cute, but Lobo is so meter-reliant on other things that I very rarely ever use it in a real match.

uhhhh... lobo is good... he doesn't really need game changing buffs

ketchup is the only person i think i can agree on with the changes he mentioned because they more like tweaks than buffs

how did it go to lobo is shit tier to now lobo is flawless?
Because no offense to REO, but many people just listen to top players without thinking or looking into things on their own.
 
I don't feel he needs to be able to stack his trait as much as he needs to be able to choose when to use it. allow us to press trait when the shell goes off just like a MB, so we aren't wasting the shell on combo damage as opposed to using it for its low launcher.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
uhhhh... lobo is good... he doesn't really need game changing buffs

ketchup is the only person i think i can agree on with the changes he mentioned because they more like tweaks than buffs

how did it go to lobo is shit tier to now lobo is flawless?
I feel like you can't read.
Sorry, I just see him having only one use for spending trait as poor, boring and lazy design on NRS' part. My apologies that I wasn't more clear, you're 100% right in saying that just being able to stack shots would be enough. Still, I strongly feel that in addition to that, doing something for his other shots when trait is on could go a long way without being unreasonable if NRS is smart. All I can think of at the moment is more range on trait'd high shot (Not fullscreen like some asshats are asking) to justify ever using it outside of jailing after 21 on block, but there's plenty of room for discussion and creativity.
I agree. Traited high shot going farther is a fair compromise. I wouldn't say full screen ever either for it, but maybe a single dash closer or so? You/Ketchup are definitely right though, right now the only good use of trait is the low shot to pop people up, and you really don't get much out of that because getting from there to the command grab for a decent combo is damn near impossible.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
I feel like you can't read.


I agree. Traited high shot going farther is a fair compromise. I wouldn't say full screen ever either for it, but maybe a single dash closer or so? You/Ketchup are definitely right though, right now the only good use of trait is the low shot to pop people up, and you really don't get much out of that because getting from there to the command grab for a decent combo is damn near impossible.
So far, all you can Get B1 into grab fron a low shot is either on its own, or from a standing 1. I haven't found any other ways to get it, the opponent is pushed too far back, it has to literally be right in their face or grab = Nobo.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
So far, all you can Get B1 into grab fron a low shot is either on its own, or from a standing 1. I haven't found any other ways to get it, the opponent is pushed too far back, it has to literally be right in their face or grab = Nobo.
Yeah, popping them up with that low shot traited really needs to mean something... clearly it was meant to, otherwise it wouldn't do the same damage as untraited, just seems like NRS didn't realize that they made it impossible to get anything respectable off of with any kind of consistency. I mean, if Reo says he can't pull if off after what we've seen him do on Kabal in MK9 (in terms of tehc/precision), that's proof enough that it's way too rough.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Yeah, popping them up with that low shot traited really needs to mean something... clearly it was meant to, otherwise it wouldn't do the same damage as untraited, just seems like NRS didn't realize that they made it impossible to get anything respectable off of with any kind of consistency. I mean, if Reo says he can't pull if off after what we've seen him do on Kabal in MK9 (in terms of tehc/precision), that's proof enough that it's way too rough.
Difficulty isn't the isssue :p

The B1 into grab is easy if you practice enough, same as everything else, it's the fact lobo can't get the B1 into grab from much at all :(