PATCH TIME BOYZ!...2.0

[Thundergodd]

I'm just gonna chalk it up to you being new, but yes, top players do complain. They still play, but yes, they do complain. Chris G/Chris T/Nemo/Infiltration and many more have ALL complained.

Cool. Thanks for answering. Any references or links to their comments would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to hear their thoughts on inbalances and nerfs.

Also, you shouldn't worship the ground someone walks on because they play a video game better than you.

Admiring people who accomplished something is not worshiping. I admired Bruce lee and Chuck Norris on what they accomplished in the martial arts and following their examples is what got me to take the arts years ago.

I admire @Clark L. and @Juggs on their philosophy on gameplay. Does that mean I worship them as well?

There is a video of the top 8 talking about the game in positives ways, like how anyone can be a top player if they believe in themselves and practice. That's a philosophy I can admire. Not once did they talk about nerfing any characters.

 

[The chosen puddle]

Fuck it nerf grodd guys this is the only solution

 

[Thundergodd]

They'll fuck it up and nerf people into dust and then buff characters to the point where they'll replace the ones they nerf. There isn't a middle ground

I agree with this to a certain degree. I may be new to the FCG but I've played other games and one thing is true, people are NEVER satisfied. There's never a true balance of characters. Some will be top tier, others will be lower tier. It's the nature of the beast.

If Bane and Swamp Thing get boosted to the top of the list, people will complain about them as well. Like I said, i guess it's human nature; crab-in-the-barrel mentality I suppose.

 

[Baconlord]

Ivy:
Slide is now a default move
Her gear fireball is now defaults
Mb drill is now plus 5 on block
D2 is now 8 frames on start up
F3 is now plus 8 on block

I feel like this is a good start
@xKhaoTik thoughts?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

scarecrow is no toptier character. if he looses his +frames nad the d1, the character goes right to the bottom.

Crow is very good though and does what he does better extremely well. It depends on where nrs sets the tipping point and it it's set lower down the line, Crow will get hit. I think it's arguable that he *is* a top tier character as well. Not top 5, don't get me wrong, but he's extremely strong snd is definitely hovering around the top of roster imo.

NRS has gotten much better at balance, but they do have a history of doing weird shit and that history has me quite worried.

 

[Vengeance135]

I'm not denying nor have I ever denied some characters may need buffs like Joker or Swamp Thing. I have NO problem with that. Nor have I denied that some characters are better than others. I just don't believe that the gap is so great that the top tier have to be nerfed as opposed to lower tier characters getiing fixed in weak areas.

C'mon man, are you telling me that if NRS fixed up your boy Joker like you wanted in a few various areas that he needs and gave him a very slight damage boost (but not in Adam's league) that Sonic wouldn't dominate the tournament scene with him? It's an honest question.

Not at all unless they gave joker the Bane treatment. If joker were to get godlike buffs he would be top tier, same as every other character. They got Godlike buffs, they would be top tier.

The whole purpose of balance patch is that key word "balance." Buffing characters enough so they have a fighting chance while nerfing characters that are way too strong and easy to access is much needed to keep the game fresh and people interested and invested. Drastic changes to characters that don't need or deserve it is one thing but changing characters that need it, good or bad, is a necessity in any fighting game, otherwise the game will get stale and people will lose interest.

The gap between top tier and low tier is big enough you just don't see it because you don't use a low tier character. In a competitive setting at a high level, the dominating characters will almost always win vs low tiers (exception: MU unfamiliarity and godlike reads with a great understanding of probable variables when assessing your risk vs rewards.)

Hell for all we know you are a multiverse dominator with Black Adam and are scared what a nerf would do to him and we are on you for downplaying, thinking you play him competitively at a high level.

Whatever the case, black Adam, as well as others, need a fix and with Adam dominating tournament play for the most part, he will be patched.

Pick up a low tier character and learn the character thoroughly then vs a high level player using a top tier character who knows the MU and you will see for yourself the big gap there is between high and low tiers.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Yeah but you're going on the principle of most people skill being on equal footing. We both know that's far far from true, no matter what game is played.

I have no problem of lower tier characters getting buffed here and there. But to have someone's Deadshot get nerfed isn't necessarily that answer.

And I'll bring this up again, people have this habit of crying nerf of a character for sake of balance, but they won't address that character's weakness (NO character is perfect) to be buff either. If this part isn't addressed and left out, it's not real balance is it?

Balance changes are not made with noob players in mind. Balance changes are made based on observations from high level of play. You can't defend the whole "good swamp things beat bad black adams/deadshots/aquamans" argument with "Yeah but you're going on the principle of most people skill being on equal footing. We both know that's far far from true, no matter what game is played." It's not fair that similarly skilled swamp thing gets wrecked by a similarly skilled top tier character. I think any attempt to defend that is just asinine.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Ivy:
Slide is now a default move
Her gear fireball is now defaults
Mb drill is now plus 5 on block
D2 is now 8 frames on start up
F3 is now plus 8 on block

I feel like this is a good start
@xKhaoTik thoughts?

I see no problem here. Let it rock

 

[Thundergodd]

Balance changes are not made with noob players in mind. Balance changes are made based on observations from high level of play. You can't defend the whole "good swamp things beat bad black adams/deadshots/aquamans" argument with "Yeah but you're going on the principle of most people skill being on equal footing. We both know that's far far from true, no matter what game is played." It's not fair that similarly skilled swamp thing gets wrecked by a similarly skilled top tier character. I think any attempt to defend that is just asinine.

But the problem here also is that we don't know what NRS thinks is balanced and what is not and whom do they cater to. The vast majority of players are NOT competitive players, so for all we know, they may just cater to the "average" or 'noob" person. Unless you have some inside info you'd like to share with us.

I would assume they pay attention to the top players actions and comments. Oh, I believe you said top players do comment negatively about characters and such. I'd still appreciate some references or a link to their thoughts on the subject.

Anyway, NO GAME is ever balanced, some characters or group will always be above others. That's just the nature of the beast. If people wanna cry nerf on certain characters, well be my guest. They have that right if that's what they choose to do.

Me, I'll play Adam regardless of what happens and enjoy him, whether he gets nerfed or not. I'll keep practicing and have the attitude of the pros and enjoy him for what he is.

 

[xKhaoTik]

would assume they pay attention to the top players actions and comments. Oh, I believe you said top players do comment negatively about characters and such. I'd still appreciate some references or a link to their thoughts on the subject.

You make it seem like top players can't complain about a character. If a character is dumb, A CHARACTER IS DUMB. It doesn't take a top player to realize that and make a statement on it.

Sonic had a whole bitch fit about sub zero back in the early days of MKX. EVERYONE conplained about Scorpion in IGAU. It's happened before and it's happening now with Black Adam and company.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

But the problem here also is that we don't know what NRS thinks is balanced and what is not and whom do they cater to. The vast majority of players are NOT competitive players, so for all we know, they may just cater to the "average" or 'noob" person. Unless you have some inside info you'd like to share with us.

I would assume they pay attention to the top players actions and comments. Oh, I believe you said top players do comment negatively about characters and such. I'd still appreciate some references or a link to their thoughts on the subject.

Anyway, NO GAME is ever balanced, some characters or group will always be above others. That's just the nature of the beast. If people wanna cry nerf on certain characters, well be my guest. They have that right if that's what they choose to do.

Me, I'll play Adam regardless of what happens and enjoy him, whether he gets nerfed or not. I'll keep practicing and have the attitudes of the pros and enjoy him for what he is.

I literally just told you NRS makes balance changes based off of high level play. They will look closely at CEO and EVO. There's literally no reason to cater to a group of players that doesn't even know what frame data/damage scaling means.

No. Jesus. I told you sonic fox is not going to call for nerfs to SOMEONE HE CURRENTLY MAINS. Good lord I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. For you only being here a week, you sure do have a hard time accepting the input from more knowledgeable NRS players that have taken the time to try to explain this stuff to you.

 

[Thundergodd]

You make it seem like top players can't complain about a character. If a character is dumb, A CHARACTER IS DUMB. It doesn't take a top player to realize that and make a statement on it.

Never said that. I just don't think they waste time complaining about how OP any character may be. From what I observe, they just look at the lower-tier characters' strengths (and weaknesses) and capitalize on them.

I've been asking this non-stop: If you have any references or links where they do complain about IJ2 characters, I'd be very interested in hearing their thoughts on the subject of nerfs and such. It would be much appreciated.

 

[Temetias]

@Thundergodd I actually understand the idea of "only buffs, no nerfs" as nerfs feel very bad when you've put time into a character. That kind of philosophy should be pushed more in games, I agree. You mentioned you're a WoW player and back then I was also talking heavily for this kind of balancing. But I don't think the same philosophy can work in fighting games.

Fighting games are an exception as they already push the reflexes and execution of a player to a limit on a regular basis. As "buffing" in fighting games usually means making a move faster it would create an environment where everything is unreactable. That promotes guess-based gameplay and coinflips. Another way of buffing generally is to add plusframes. That on the other hand creates long sequences of actions that the opponent has to just hold. Not very interactive and if everything is already buffed to be hella fast the game becomes quite bonkers.

For example MKX has in my opinion been a game where they kinda tried to make "every character bonkers". The common opinion of the game is that the gameplay doesn't really match what you'd expect from a good fighting game. I personally still enjoy that game, but I feel I'm in the minority in that one.

 

[masuhdunkillyall]

I think that a simple nerf to Black Adam's damage would be reasonable. Make batman's trait charge slower or have him start with one bat or no bats would be reasonable. Possibly make Aquaman's back 213 +1 or 0 on block. I think giving Ivy a 10 or even 12 frame d2 would be a reasonable buff for her. I play Ivy, Red Hood, Batman.

This is the direction I'd like to see NRS take on nerfs/buffs.

Very slight nerfs to the top tier legacy characters, focused on making their braindead aspects less, well, braindead.

Buffs should be made sparingly to some of the less "complete" feeling characters to improve what they're already good at.

For example, if Bane only received the following buffs for the entirety of the games lifespan, I'd be ok:
- trait debuff does not reset during clash/super/transition etc (special exception for Bane here)

- dash recovers faster

If he received nothing at all I'd probably still be fine with it, but we don't need sweeping changes except in a few special cases.

 

[Thundergodd]

I literally just told you NRS makes balance changes based off of high level play. They will look closely at CEO and EVO. There's literally no reason to cater to a group of players that doesn't even know what frame data/damage scaling means.

No. Jesus. I told you sonic fox is not going to call for nerfs to SOMEONE HE CURRENTLY MAINS. Good lord I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. For you only being here a week, you sure do have a hard time accepting the input from more knowledgeable NRS players that have taken the time to try to explain this stuff to you.

Really? Rudeness is called for?

Did I ask specifically for Sonic's comments? I said ANY of the top players will do.

You also stated NRS makes balance changes based off of high level play. They will look closely at CEO and EVO. Fine.

I never denied your statements being true. All I'm asking is references and verification to these statements. That's not unreasonable in the least. If you were a new students in the arts and I say Bruce Lee studied under Yip Man and invented Jeet Kune Do, I'm gonna give you reference to verify my claim if you ask for them.

Just because I'm not on the bandwagon and being polite in asking about this game doesn't justify you being rude. If you're at a point where my polite inquiries are bothering you, just don't answer.

It's easier to be considerate. As Raven used to say on his show, see how easy life can be?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Wait, wait---

By this line of reasoning, anybody who signs up for tournaments qualifies more than anyone who doesn't? Are you for real?? Do I really have o break down how wrong this statement is??



Really? You're SURE about that?

Sonic just recently put Aquaman as number one. You have quotes from the top 8 to verify your claim?



Then I guess you haven't been paying attention to my posts. I'm against ANY CHARACTER getting a nerf. I used to think that way and whine about nerfing someone (Deadshot) and freely admit I was wrong thinking that way. Go ahead, re-read my posts then get back to me.....



Yeeaahhh, because he's just cannot be beat. A good player using , say, Batman, just can't beat a mediocre player using Adam. Oh, wait.....

You basically took my entire post out of context, that is impressive. My first point was that I as a player who plays these characters in tournaments has a connection to them like people who "main" them. I still want the characters to be good because I enjoy playing them. Nowhere did I imply being a tournament player makes my opinion any stronger than anyone elses.

If youre talking about that interview that Sonic did he wasnt making a numbered list. He just said who the top tier was. I haven't seen anyone who puts Black Adam outside of top 2 or 3.

I read your posts and 99% of them is defending Black Adam while fleetingly saying no one should get nerfs. That is also a stupid idea and has been for the past 4 NRS games. Characters can be too strong, buffing everyone to Black Adam's level would require a reworking of character's entire kits and make everyone way too good. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

I also never said Adam is unbeatable. I've beaten Adam's in bracket with Atro before which is a terrible MU. That doesn't change the fact that he is too strong. Using Batman as an example is pretty silly considering I just said he was too strong too and needed nerfs as well. Try playing a good Black Adam as Swamp Thing or Cold and get back to me.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Never said that. I just don't think they waste time complaining about how OP any character may be. From what I observe, they just look at the lower-tier characters' strengths (and weaknesses) and capitalize on them.

I've been asking this non-stop: If you have any references or links where they do complain about IJ2 characters, I'd be very interested in hearing their thoughts on the subject of nerfs and such. It would be much appreciated.

Ummm just go to Twitter and you'll see they complain as much as anyone else lol because there are characters with legit unfair stuff in the game, no match-up experience and no practice will take away Black Adam's damage, Aquaman's chip damage, Batman's pressure, Catwoman's hurtbox issues, Atrocitus...

So yeah, they also complain about stuff that needs to get changed. As I said, just go to twitter and you'll see for yourself. Also, I can tell you are new here since you obviousky missed when literally EVERY top player complained extremely hard about MKX Tanya/Alien/Mileena/Sub Zero/Kung Lao/Shinnok (basically every top tier in MKX's lifetime) or when they complained about Batgirl/Zod/Flash/Martian Manhunter/Aquaman in IGAU or when they are complaining right now about Black Adam/Aquaman/Batman/Atrocitus/Catwoman...

But I don't know what do tournament players have to do here?

 

[alkipot]

Never said that. I just don't think they waste time complaining about how OP any character may be. From what I observe, they just look at the lower-tier characters' strengths (and weaknesses) and capitalize on them.

I've been asking this non-stop: If you have any references or links where they do complain about IJ2 characters, I'd be very interested in hearing their thoughts on the subject of nerfs and such. It would be much appreciated.

Just calling you Thunderwall from here on, since you're so thick headed. I don't write down every time a top player complains as I don't fellate their every word like you. Look up tweets from those you worship. Google is your friend. Here's Chris G complaining about SFV:

 

[xKhaoTik]

That kind of filosofy

filosofy

Bruuuh you had one job

 

[The chosen puddle]

You basically took my entire post out of context, that is impressive. My first point was that I as a player who plays these characters in tournaments has a connection to them like people who "main" them. I still want the characters to be good because I enjoy playing them. Nowhere did I imply being a tournament player makes my opinion any stronger than anyone elses.

If youre talking about that interview that Sonic did he wasnt making a numbered list. He just said who the top tier was. I haven't seen anyone who puts Black Adam outside of top 2 or 3.

I read your posts and 99% of them is defending Black Adam while fleetingly saying no one should get nerfs. That is also a stupid idea and has been for the past 4 NRS games. Characters can be too strong, buffing everyone to Black Adam's level would require a reworking of character's entire kits and make everyone way too good. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

I also never said Adam is unbeatable. I've beaten Adam's in bracket with Atro before which is a terrible MU. That doesn't change the fact that he is too strong. Using Batman as an example is pretty silly considering I just said he was too strong too and needed nerfs as well. Try playing a good Black Adam as Swamp Thing or Cold and get back to me.

Or a good aquaman as grodd

 

[freerf245]

you mean nerf the two broken characters and buff the shit one? basically

All Aquaman needs is b123 to be minus and Superman (if anything) needs his breath to be more -. You don't need to completely butcher all their tools. GL doesn't need anything and if he did he certainly doesn't need all of that.

 

[Vengeance135]

Bruuuh you had one job

I was literally about to say it but I was making sure I would be the first lmfao!

 

[Thundergodd]

@Thundergodd I actually understand the idea of "only buffs, no nerfs" as nerfs feel very bad when you've put time into a character. That kind of filosofy should be pushed more in games, I agree. You mentioned you're a WoW player and back then I was also talking heavily for this kind of balancing. But I don't think the same filosofy can work in fighting games.

I appreciate your thoughts on this. Please continue----

@ThundergoddFighting games are an exception as they already push the reflexes and execution of a player to a limit on a regular basis. As "buffing" in fighting games usually means making a move faster it would create an enviroment where everything is unreactable. That promotes guess-based gameplay and coinflips. Another way of buffing generally is to add plusframes. That on the other hand creates long sequences of actions that the opponent has to just hold. Not very interactive and if everything is already buffed to be hella fast the game becomes quite bonkers.

For example MKX has in my opinion was been a game where they kinda tried to make "every character bonkers". The common opinion of the game is that the gameplay doesn't really match what you'd expect from a good fighting game. I personally still enjoy that game, but I feel I'm in the minority in that one.

Interesting. I hear what you're saying, but if they were to buff a character, say--the joker, do you really think "it would create an enviroment where everything is unreactable"?

If I've learned anything from games in general (though I'm new to IJ2) is that there's never any real balance. Certain characters or groups will always be better. Nature of the beast.

Quick story: I remember when Warriors, Deathknights and Mages in WoW were dominating the charts in damage. Always!! What did I do?

I geared the hell out of my Paladin to the point where when I did raids, no matter who was there, I was ALWAYS in the top 3 in damage. I never asked for nerfs to those classes. I became so well known that I was one of the most powerful players in all of Warcraft.

Just a little background into me....

 

[Vengeance135]

New suggestion:

Leave black Adam, redevelop the entire game

 

[Vengeance135]

I appreciate your thoughts on this. Please continue----



Interesting. I hear what you're saying, but if they were to buff a character, say--the joker, do you really think "it would create an enviroment where everything is unreactable"?

If I've learned anything from games in general (though I'm new to IJ2) is that there's never any real balance. Certain characters or groups will always be better. Nature of the beast.

Quick story: I remember when Warriors, Deathknights and Mages in WoW were dominating the charts in damage. Always!! What did I do?

I geared the hell out of my Paladin to the point where when I did raids, no matter who was there, I was ALWAYS in the top 3 in damage. I never asked for nerfs to those classes. I became so well known that I was one of the most powerful players in all of Warcraft.

Just a little background into me....

Great but these are fighting games bruh, different kind of beast