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Opinion on the what the current tiers look like

TarkatanDentist

TarkatanDentist

Noob
FOREVER KING said:
But the thing is you can't switch variations mid match. You have to lose a tournament match in order to switch variations. So it is essentially the same exact thing as losing, and counter picking with a different character.

Just for hypothetical speaking, let's say Hellfire and Outlaw beats Grandmaster, and Ninjitsu loses to Grandmaster. If you pick Ninjitsu and your opponent picks Grandmaster in tournament, you wouldn't say Scorpion is at advantage. You wouldn't call it a 5-5 matchup just because the Scorpion has another variation that beats Grandmaster. The Ninjitsu is at disadvantage in that matchup. The Scorpion player would have to lose first, go down 0-1 in the set then counterpick with Hellfire. But literally there is no difference if he counterpicked with Outlaw instead of Hellfire.

Every variation is it's own character. You can't switch variations during a match. I could see your point if you could switch variations when you win a tournament match, but you can't. You can only switch if you lose, so there's no difference in counter picking with a different variation of just counter picking with a different character
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QFT (yes, the whole thing lol)

I often think of variations as being roughly analogous to palette swap characters in MK games of old, in the sense that for most of them, normals usually stay mostly the same, but special moves become different. For all intents and purposes, different variations are different characters, straight up.

The tricky part is that the extent to which variations actually change the character's play style varies so, so much in this game. Reptile is a well-known example of a character whose variations scarcely affect his core gameplay at all, but then you have characters like Kung Jin where all three of his variations play totally differently, and then you have characters with one variation that's totally different, and two others which are broadly the same (Ferra/Torr and Kitana, with Lackey and Mournful respectively being the ones that shake things up), and more rarely other characters where the three variations are fairly similar, but with distinct advantages in differing match-ups (like Sonya).

Trying to make a tier list factoring all of that in is going to be one hell of a headache-inducer.
 
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
SneakyTortoise said:
I get your point, but I think there's a very big difference between switching characters and switching variations. I'd expect a player to be able to use a different variation to overcome a difficult match up, I wouldn't expect them to be able to use another character completely at the same level.
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A lot of players just go to the variation that suits them best, as opposed to learning all 3 because there's not much point. Unless you're a die-hard character loyalist like Bit & Kitana, you're probably just gonna gravitate towards the variations that suit you best.

For example, if I'm playing against Grandmaster with Marksman and lose, I'd just pick Hellfire instead of going Gunslinger because Gunslinger sucks and Hellfire suits me way better.

If REO loses with Bojutsu, there's a reason that he'd pick Summoner instead of Shaolin - and I'm 99% sure that his Summoner is just as good.

Also, you were talking to the @FOREVER KING of counterpicking lmao. From the looks of it his Tempest Lao is just as good as his Bojutsu Jin.

Honestly, we should 100% do tier lists by variation. Doing it by character is like including E.Ryu with Ryu in an Ultra SF tier list (obviously not the same as not everyone has an evil version of themselves, but still similar).
 
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Genei Jin

Genei Jin

Noob
dragon fire liu kang is A. he has can zone (although not as good as flame fist), has good pressure, fast normals, fast walk speed and is safe/can be made safe on nearly everything he does. his raw overhead leads to nothing, but it is still a fast overhead with great reach. if they want to keep blocking low, i have no problem checking them with this until they decide to block high and open themselves to his low starters.

Predannok said:
How can u put Cassie Cage with her +1 b124 with vortex in Hollywood, Hard-to-blockables in Spec ops and Command grab mixups in Brawler with Kotal Kahn? WarGod is B-A But Sun god and BLood God Are Bullshit compared to Spec ops or Brawler.. just compare both footsie tools b124 is +1 while f1b2 is -11 SG and BG have nothing to make this safe.
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because war god kotal kahn solves nearly all the problems he have from his other variations.
 
youthinkyoubadyouaintbad

youthinkyoubadyouaintbad

Noob
Eldriken said:
Yes, I was being sarcastic. I was pointing out to the dude that Slasher has more than just f42. Other shit may not lead to much damage, but people will start respecting his options that will potentially allow you to open them up more with f42.

I love using f2~df1 and f2~bf2. While it's not much damage, it's still damage.
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u weren't pointing anything out, u wrote an ambiguously sarcastic, smarmy response that is typical of the children on this board. nobody respects jason's 'options' or lack thereof.
 
Zephyrus

Zephyrus

TYM resident party pooper
Genei Jin said:
dragon fire liu kang is A. he has can zone (although not as good as flame fist), has good pressure, fast normals, fast walk speed and is safe/can be made safe on nearly everything he does. his raw overhead leads to nothing, but it is still a fast overhead with great reach. if they want to keep blocking low, i have no problem checking them with this until they decide to block high and open themselves to his low starters.
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hahahahahahahahaha.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Only thing Liu Kang is A at is the upplaying he has on this site.
 
Yoaks

Yoaks

A spaceman
TelekineticBeing said:
You must not have that much matchup knowledge vs Erron Black. He can't just make everything safe with rifle swing, there's a massive gap inbetween his 50/50s into rifle swing that you can literally just interrupt with a full combo or armor.

That's the purpose of using rifle cancels, to make his mixups safe/hit-confirm able. If rifle swing after his 50/50s was air tight there would be no point in doing the rifle cancels in the first place.

Also his rifle cancels aren't pressure, they're still negative.
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WHEN CAN YOU GET BACK ON AND STOP HAVING A LYFE!?!?!?&%&$%@?!@@@#$?@!!?!?
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
youthinkyoubadyouaintbad said:
u weren't pointing anything out, u wrote an ambiguously sarcastic, smarmy response that is typical of the children on this board. nobody respects jason's 'options' or lack thereof.
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That's because no one uses them or they play Relentless, which changes things entirely.
 
Zephyrus

Zephyrus

TYM resident party pooper
Genei Jin said:
says the idiot that ranks him in the same category as kitana and goro.
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As one of the worse characters in the game?
Only an imbecile would say otherwise.

Still would like to hear what makes Liu Kang so good. It can't be his pressure because ALL he has is chip damage. Oh but you can hit people with a 7% damage OH that leads to absofuckinglutely nothing. At all.
His oki isn't that great either. At most, on wakeup all you can do is use a move that if it hits pushes the opponent where you don't want him. Away from you.

Hell, I'd go as far as say that if it wasn't for dragon's fire, he'd be the absolute worst character in the game. One variation is just bad. The other is so unfinished it hurts.

I'd really like to know why this character who never places well in any goddamn tournament where people actually know how to play, is so upplayed. Are you that free to block low?
 
Genei Jin

Genei Jin

Noob
Zephyrus said:
As one of the worse characters in the game?
Only an imbecile would say otherwise.

Still would like to hear what makes Liu Kang so good. It can't be his pressure because ALL he has is chip damage. Oh but you can hit people with a 7% damage OH that leads to absofuckinglutely nothing. At all.
His oki isn't that great either. At most, on wakeup all you can do is use a move that if it hits pushes the opponent where you don't want him. Away from you.

Hell, I'd go as far as say that if it wasn't for dragon's fire, he'd be the absolute worst character in the game. One variation is just bad. The other is so unfinished it hurts.

I'd really like to know why this character who never places well in any goddamn tournament where people actually know how to play, is so upplayed. Are you that free to block low?
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what makes him good has already been addressed. chip damage is still damage.

kung lao has no low starters, does that make him one of the worst?

seriously? his overhead leading to nothing has also been addressed. are you so flowchart and braindead that you can't see what it is used for? it is used to condition the opponent to block low.

exactly what do you want? an overhead starter into a combo? why stop with liu kang, lets give everyone an overhead and low starter.
 
Zephyrus

Zephyrus

TYM resident party pooper
Genei Jin said:
what makes him good has already been addressed. chip damage is still damage.

kung lao has no low starters, does that make him one of the worst?

seriously? his overhead leading to nothing has also been addressed. are you so flowchart and braindead that you can't see what it is used for? it is used to condition the opponent to block low.

exactly what do you want? an overhead starter into a combo? why stop with liu kang, lets give everyone an overhead and low starter.
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Kung Lao also has an ex-spin which leads to 30+% combos on wakeup. He also has an hat spin that creates a lot of combo options. He also has amazing pressure and a teleport. Only thing Liu Kang shares with Lao, is the pressure. Liu Kang has good pressure. But that's it.

And no I don't want an overhead starter. I want his 113 string to hit mid mid OH. That's all I want and it'd be enough to boost him to mid tiers. Because as it is now the 11 part of the string whiff on crouching opponents.

Before you talk shit about me maybe inform yourself about what I've wrote about the character.

I've said several times on this site that all I want for Liu is that change. He needs nothing more.

Beside Lao may not have a low starter, but he has an overhead one which is infinitely better than a low one. And his f+23 string hits low on the second hit and is comboable.

Imagine if Liu's 22 string still hit OH and was comboable? How much that would boost the character? And it isn't much different that Lao's f+23.

Learn the character's strenghts and weaknesses before you talk. You look stupid otherwise.
 
Zephyrus

Zephyrus

TYM resident party pooper
haketh said:
Man I just really cannot understand this whole Lui Kang is bad thing. I just can't see it at all outside of Dualist.
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oh he isn't bad. He's just outclassed by nearly every other character in the game but you can certainly win games with him.

It's not like this is MK9 where the low tier characters pratically had no chance at victory against the top tier. It's much easier to win with the lowest tier characters in the game vs the top tier than it was in mk9

But while you can win with Liu, that doesn't mean he isn't one of the worst in the game.
 
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