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Online play is useful to an extent

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
This came about in another thread. Since I do not want to derail said thread, I am making this one dedicated to the "argument".

Check made a statement regarding online play.

Check said:
All online is good for is finding players that live near you to meet up and play offline.

Hopefully Online Kombat just dies and we can all go back to playing MK offline; the way it was meant to be played.
I responded:

OJuggernautO said:
Online is great for a lot of things. You can get great practice online, depending on the net code of the game and your connection with your opponent. It's also convenient and easy. Online in general will never die.

Though, people do take online way too seriously. You can't determine who's better through online casuals, the people who say you can are silly. You can judge skill levels and the like, but as far as who's better can only be determined via offline tournaments.
To which Check responded:

Check said:
Those are things which would come with meeting those same people to play offline. Id rather go out of my way to play them offline then waste my time playing them online. Its a waste of time as far as MK Online is concerned. MK9 is hosted by gamespy and has p1/p2 programmed differently again so you can forget the netcode being any then it was in the past 8 years. I was referring to MK online. Not online in general. My apologies.
I responded:

OJuggernautO said:
Yeah, but the point of online play is when you CAN'T meet up with those people offline. Besides, those people aren't always if ever going to be close enough to you to play offline. Sure, everyone would rather play offline, it's just a matter of convenience and accessibility. Not only that, but it costs money to travel, just bringing me back to the convenience part. Not all MK games are ridiculous online, I've gotten as good as I am strictly from playing online in UMK3. Sure, the topic of online play changes when discussing games that have terrible net code. If you're just talking about 3D MK's, then you have a point and I agree. Though even still, not everyone is lucky enough to live close to players who actually play the game you want to play offline and the players are good.
Then Tay (THTB) commented on online as well:

THTB said:
Online straight up sucks. Until it gets to the point where there is absolutely no difference between offline and online in terms of delay, it will continue to be useless outside of playing with friends from far away. It's not good for practice, it's not good for gaining experience vs tactics, since oftentimes the tactics you face are hard to deal with online due to even minor delay, or in the case of MKD-MKDC, entire property changes.

People just need to find local scenes, tbh.
I responded:

OJuggernautO said:
Definitely not always the case. In some and even most scenarios it is great for practice and experience. As far as it being useless depends on the person and is a subjective view. The only way it is indeed useless is if the connection is unplayable, which again varies from person to person. A playable connection for me, could be an unplayable one for you. That is still irrelevant regarding practice, match-ups and experience though. But even to say it's useless you have to define what you mean by "useless" and comapared to what. I don't know what connections you guys are playing in, but I have far from a great connection and not every game has lag or delay. Yes, some tactics are harder to react to online, or are easier to use online. Though that's just a tactic and usually only abusable in lag and delay. Even still, you'd be able to adapt offline if the tactic you used online doesn't work so well offline. I'm not saying that online play is exactly like offline, because it's not. I hate online as far as competition as much as the next person. You just can't say it's "useless" in general, because that's just not true. I've become a high level player in UMK3 strictly from online play. So based on that example alone, online isn't useless.
My question is, why is online useless? Why isn't online good for practice, match-up experience, or experience in general? Excluding the fact that there's sometimes unplayable delay or lag. I am talking about having a great connection with someone.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
I still think online sucks, but my offline play is limited these days, so it's all i got. I have indeed noticed some delays and nonsense even w/ "perfect" connections. When referring to SSF4 there is usually no noticable lag unless it's really shitty connection, but rather comes out in the form of delay. There have been many instances where I clearly anti-air my opponent while they are at the peak of a jump and magically appear blocking on the ground the next instant. This is usuallu typical when playing EC/WC matches and w/ a distance of up to 3000 miles between each other, you can really expect nothing less. I have also played people in the same state in which noticeable LAG occurs as well as delay. Online is good for keeping stuff fresh in your head and knowing match-ups to an extent, but even then, many things become safe online or other factors come into play. If it happens on a game like SSF4 w/ such a great server and netcoding, I'm positive this happens w/ practically every other game out there.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
It's like I was saying. There's ALWAYS delay online. You can't escape it unless you're playing GGPO. Not in UMK3. Not in T6. Not in SSFIV. This is something you WILL NOT recognize if you don't play the game offline enough. Even if the delay is minimal...that minimal delay DOES throw off a lot of timings. Like 99.9% of the things I've seen of Daigo offline...he doesn't drop ANYTHING. I've seen him drop simple BnBs far more often online. Same with other various players. It doesn't make your experience any better, not when your timing isn't the same. It changes a lot, even very subtle things like being able to play footsies properly.

Not only that...but just the environment you get from even offline casuals feels so different. It's very difficult to explain, it just feels different. The emotions, the adrenaline, the pressure...it's strange.

Online gets you nowhere in the long run. It seriously doesn't.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
I agree with Juggernaut, what he's saying that online isn't totally useless and is good for practice, expanding comp on the spot and getting an idea how you match up with someone.

Sure, there's lag, delay etc at times comes with online play and why online should not be taken dead seriously, but at the same time I think online is good for the following things IMO:

1. Expanding comp on the spot if you have nobody to play with offline and don't feel like playing the same, predictable A.I. over and over

2. Making new friends, teaching others and telling them about sites like this for more info, knowledge about the game

3. Good for practice(although it may not be as good as offline practice, it sure beats playing the dumb computer...lol)

4. Online brings back the whole "hey how did you do that, like the arcades way back" scenarios, so one player that knows more can teach the newer player a thing or two....this is something that can be done offline as well as online. Of course property changes is a given, but I mean say a combo or how to do a fireball in a combo etc things like that. :)

Online should never, ever be taken "dead" serious for serious play. You can get an idea of who the better player is but online won't ever be offline, but for most people it's the first option to play others(generally speaking)
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
I don't even understand why people still argue about this, at all. If you play against 10 people online over the course of 2 hours, chances are you will have at LEAST 5 different timings to compensate for, not to mention battle frame skipping, and inconsistent lag which random and unpredictable. If there's a person who likes to play offline and have a person randomly slap their hands while they play, or give a controller with buttons coated with soda, I'd like you to introduce them to me. Some of them may in fact be 95% the quality of offline play, which, fine, you can practice combos in that but I can also practice combos vs the CPU offline and to some extent the more simple tactics. I will learn NOTHING against an opponent online if they are only good for combo practice. If they are any more of a challenge than that, and if the netplay quality is less than acceptable, you still can't learn because you cannot apply the concepts to an acceptable level. You will more often see players use and exploit tactics that worked over a decade ago when the average player reaction time and experience was much lower.

This is why you see online players constantly claiming they invent strats and tactics, because they do work online when the other players have a disadvantage. Remember, it's rare that netplaying field is totally even. Chances are if you are feeling a solid connection, the other person is not. The only time you're going to experience a double solid connection is when you're within 30ms ping and it's played late at night with low net traffic. If you have a 1/4 second delay, and a 1/4 second to react to something, well, do the math, play someone else.

Netplay is not entirely good for overall experience, but it's good for some experience and may in fact enhance your guessing ability, but that is just guessing, and you're guessing against someone else who is also impaired. You can only learn so much from it until you must venture out into the open, or find someone locally who is willing to learn the game. When you can say "Well not always" in reference to a playing platform there's still a problem there, and granted yes, even playing offline there can be issues but that's because we are more often forced to play emulated versions of the games, and you have to take in account for controller types, bad parts, the type of TV and video signal, BUT, BUT, this also applies to online play as well. So on top of the standard issues that apply to ANY video game, anywhere, you have to take into account you aren't playing the games in absolute real time, or at least, as close to real time as they were intended to be played.

Here's my favorite example. The fact that I have lost 100% of the time to people I have played online and beaten them 100% of the time offline should be a huge red flag. Many netplayers are so use to netplay that they think it's standard. Even in the best conditions online, it can still be better.

Now, after this debate is settled in terms of math, the online players will undoubtedly pout and claim offline players are saying that online players aren't good players. Well, here's a news flash, yes, some of the online players who win lots of matches are still not good players, however, there are more than plenty who are good, and would be much better if they got to play against reasonable competition in person with no internet bridging the gap. A number of players who preached about netplay being the true source of competition changed their tunes when they started losing to poor tactics that just work better online. You guys know you've seen videos of primarily online players show up at tournaments and get smacked down because they try to use online tactics, and you know you've seen online players shine as well, so take your pick.

As someone who has enormous offline and online experience in various fighting games, I respect online players who have logged thousands of hours on fighting games and suffer through it, and persist to play, even though in the long run it's just a bad idea, because they enjoy playing and will take whatever they can get. I can't tell you how many times I've met players who told me "I can't believe how different it is to play people in person, my timing is so off." Well think about this, anybody who plays primarily offline is going to say the same thing to you about netplay, but for whatever reason, it's not cool for offline players to complain to online players about netplay. Deal with it, it's the reason why some of you win, but offline standard play is not the reason why offline players win, it's because some of those players are just fricken bad and never knew it.

In the end, yes, netplay sucks. It sucks a lot, and it's gonna suck for a long time. Don't let it get to your head if you beat a respected player a few matches, or break even because that's a format that lends its hand to no one in particular, you could be the next victim. If someone complains to you about netplay, say "I understand, Shock already explained it to me." because they aren't complaining for no reason.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
It's like I was saying. There's ALWAYS delay online. You can't escape it unless you're playing GGPO. Not in UMK3. Not in T6. Not in SSFIV. This is something you WILL NOT recognize if you don't play the game offline enough.
Even if there is "always" some form of delay, it's often so minimal it won't hinder your gameplay. I would agree that the matches that have a lot of delay or lag, would be completely useless. This just isn't how it is online, unless you yourself have a horrid connection and constantly play people who are far from you or also have a horrid connection. And you are also assuming that I don't play offline "enough".

Even if the delay is minimal...that minimal delay DOES throw off a lot of timings. Like 99.9% of the things I've seen of Daigo offline...he doesn't drop ANYTHING. I've seen him drop simple BnBs far more often online. Same with other various players. It doesn't make your experience any better, not when your timing isn't the same. It changes a lot, even very subtle things like being able to play footsies properly.
It may throw off your timing for combos and reactions, but what else does it do? I'm speaking minimal delay, not the obvious unplayable delay. Execution is why online can't be take seriously, it's not, however, a reason why it's useless.


Not only that...but just the environment you get from even offline casuals feels so different. It's very difficult to explain, it just feels different. The emotions, the adrenaline, the pressure...it's strange.
That's very dependant on where you're having casuals. It still doesn't nullify the game experience you can get from online.

Online gets you nowhere in the long run. It seriously doesn't.
You still haven't made a good argument on why online is useless. All I have read is "Your execution is not as good online" (I agree) - "The atmosphere/environment is way different in person" (I agree to an extent). These are reasons why offline is better, not why onlines is useless.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
I don't even understand why people still argue about this, at all. If you play against 10 people online over the course of 2 hours, chances are you will have at LEAST 5 different timings to compensate for, not to mention battle frame skipping, and inconsistent lag which random and unpredictable. If there's a person who likes to play offline and have a person randomly slap their hands while they play, or give a controller with buttons coated with soda, I'd like you to introduce them to me. Some of them may in fact be 95% the quality of offline play, which, fine, you can practice combos in that but I can also practice combos vs the CPU offline and to some extent the more simple tactics. I will learn NOTHING against an opponent online if they are only good for combo practice. If they are any more of a challenge than that, and if the netplay quality is less than acceptable, you still can't learn because you cannot apply the concepts to an acceptable level. You will more often see players use and exploit tactics that worked over a decade ago when the average player reaction time and experience was much lower.

This is why you see online players constantly claiming they invent strats and tactics, because they do work online when the other players have a disadvantage. Remember, it's rare that netplaying field is totally even. Chances are if you are feeling a solid connection, the other person is not. The only time you're going to experience a double solid connection is when you're within 30ms ping and it's played late at night with low net traffic. If you have a 1/4 second delay, and a 1/4 second to react to something, well, do the math, play someone else.

Netplay is not entirely good for overall experience, but it's good for some experience and may in fact enhance your guessing ability, but that is just guessing, and you're guessing against someone else who is also impaired. You can only learn so much from it until you must venture out into the open, or find someone locally who is willing to learn the game. When you can say "Well not always" in reference to a playing platform there's still a problem there, and granted yes, even playing offline there can be issues but that's because we are more often forced to play emulated versions of the games, and you have to take in account for controller types, bad parts, the type of TV and video signal, BUT, BUT, this also applies to online play as well. So on top of the standard issues that apply to ANY video game, anywhere, you have to take into account you aren't playing the games in absolute real time, or at least, as close to real time as they were intended to be played.

Here's my favorite example. The fact that I have lost 100% of the time to people I have played online and beaten them 100% of the time offline should be a huge red flag. Many netplayers are so use to netplay that they think it's standard. Even in the best conditions online, it can still be better.

Now, after this debate is settled in terms of math, the online players will undoubtedly pout and claim offline players are saying that online players aren't good players. Well, here's a news flash, yes, some of the online players who win lots of matches are still not good players, however, there are more than plenty who are good, and would be much better if they got to play against reasonable competition in person with no internet bridging the gap. A number of players who preached about netplay being the true source of competition changed their tunes when they started losing to poor tactics that just work better online. You guys know you've seen videos of primarily online players show up at tournaments and get smacked down because they try to use online tactics, and you know you've seen online players shine as well, so take your pick.

As someone who has enormous offline and online experience in various fighting games, I respect online players who have logged thousands of hours on fighting games and suffer through it, and persist to play, even though in the long run it's just a bad idea, because they enjoy playing and will take whatever they can get. I can't tell you how many times I've met players who told me "I can't believe how different it is to play people in person, my timing is so off." Well think about this, anybody who plays primarily offline is going to say the same thing to you about netplay, but for whatever reason, it's not cool for offline players to complain to online players about netplay. Deal with it, it's the reason why some of you win, but offline standard play is not the reason why offline players win, it's because some of those players are just fricken bad and never knew it.

In the end, yes, netplay sucks. It sucks a lot, and it's gonna suck for a long time. Don't let it get to your head if you beat a respected player a few matches, or break even because that's a format that lends its hand to no one in particular, you could be the next victim. If someone complains to you about netplay, say "I understand, Shock already explained it to me." because they aren't complaining for no reason.
Quoted for the TRUTH.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
"it's often so minimal it won't hinder your gameplay"

I'm gonna Lex my post by saying "False."
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
It's useless because WHEN YOU PRACTICE ONLINE, YOU PRACTICE FOR THE ONLINE ENVIRONMENT...NOT THE OFFLINE ENVIRONMENT.

Yes, you can try to get experience, but it's ONLINE experience...which isn't the type of experience you WANT.

That's what I'm getting at. It's totally different...you won't understand it until you seriously start playing offline more than you do.
 

STORMS

Co-founder
Founder
Premium Supporter
Online is NOT useless... not to all measures, that is. Online is great for meeting people, but online should NOT be taken seriously.

Shit.. if it wasn't for online I would've never improved my game playing others from states away, meeting up at ECT2, etc.

Offline is the way to go, obviously, but it's just not as easy to find players offline.

All this shit I'm saying is obvious, but I wanted to speak my opinion.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I don't even understand why people still argue about this, at all. If you play against 10 people online over the course of 2 hours, chances are you will have at LEAST 5 different timings to compensate for, not to mention battle frame skipping, and inconsistent lag which random and unpredictable. If there's a person who likes to play offline and have a person randomly slap their hands while they play, or give a controller with buttons coated with soda, I'd like you to introduce them to me. Some of them may in fact be 95% the quality of offline play, which, fine, you can practice combos in that but I can also practice combos vs the CPU offline and to some extent the more simple tactics. I will learn NOTHING against an opponent online if they are only good for combo practice. If they are any more of a challenge than that, and if the netplay quality is less than acceptable, you still can't learn because you cannot apply the concepts to an acceptable level. You will more often see players use and exploit tactics that worked over a decade ago when the average player reaction time and experience was much lower.
I agree, if you play players that aren't near your level, it won't do that much for yourself. I also would agree that in unplayable connections, online is meaningless.

This is why you see online players constantly claiming they invent strats and tactics, because they do work online when the other players have a disadvantage. Remember, it's rare that netplaying field is totally even. Chances are if you are feeling a solid connection, the other person is not. The only time you're going to experience a double solid connection is when you're within 30ms ping and it's played late at night with low net traffic. If you have a 1/4 second delay, and a 1/4 second to react to something, well, do the math, play someone else.
Right, as I've said, if the connections are good, online is just fine. As far as getting in practice and match-up experience, which is what I'm arguing. Which in games like SSF4, having a good connection with your opponent happens quite a lot.

Netplay is not entirely good for overall experience, but it's good for some experience and may in fact enhance your guessing ability, but that is just guessing, and you're guessing against someone else who is also impaired. You can only learn so much from it until you must venture out into the open, or find someone locally who is willing to learn the game. When you can say "Well not always" in reference to a playing platform there's still a problem there, and granted yes, even playing offline there can be issues but that's because we are more often forced to play emulated versions of the games, and you have to take in account for controller types, bad parts, the type of TV and video signal, BUT, BUT, this also applies to online play as well. So on top of the standard issues that apply to ANY video game, anywhere, you have to take into account you aren't playing the games in absolute real time, or at least, as close to real time as they were intended to be played.

Here's my favorite example. The fact that I have lost 100% of the time to people I have played online and beaten them 100% of the time offline should be a huge red flag. Many netplayers are so use to netplay that they think it's standard. Even in the best conditions online, it can still be better.

Now, after this debate is settled in terms of math, the online players will undoubtedly pout and claim offline players are saying that online players aren't good players. Well, here's a news flash, yes, some of the online players who win lots of matches are still not good players, however, there are more than plenty who are good, and would be much better if they got to play against reasonable competition in person with no internet bridging the gap. A number of players who preached about netplay being the true source of competition changed their tunes when they started losing to poor tactics that just work better online. You guys know you've seen videos of primarily online players show up at tournaments and get smacked down because they try to use online tactics, and you know you've seen online players shine as well, so take your pick.

As someone who has enormous offline and online experience in various fighting games, I respect online players who have logged thousands of hours on fighting games and suffer through it, and persist to play, even though in the long run it's just a bad idea, because they enjoy playing and will take whatever they can get. I can't tell you how many times I've met players who told me "I can't believe how different it is to play people in person, my timing is so off." Well think about this, anybody who plays primarily offline is going to say the same thing to you about netplay, but for whatever reason, it's not cool for offline players to complain to online players about netplay. Deal with it, it's the reason why some of you win, but offline standard play is not the reason why offline players win, it's because some of those players are just fricken bad and never knew it.

In the end, yes, netplay sucks. It sucks a lot, and it's gonna suck for a long time. Don't let it get to your head if you beat a respected player a few matches, or break even because that's a format that lends its hand to no one in particular, you could be the next victim. If someone complains to you about netplay, say "I understand, Shock already explained it to me." because they aren't complaining for no reason.
I agree with most of what you said. Though I am not saying that online is a good (or one period) measuring ground for who's better than who. Nor am I saying that if you beat a player online, you won't have problems with them offline. I'm saying that online will, and will always be, a good way to practice. IF, however, the connections are good. I'm not saying it's the best way to practice, I'm saying it's certainly not useless and it is good for several things. If I play you online while the connections are good, it's irrelevant who wins the most matches. First of all online play are casuals. Secondly, you can't determine who's better through online play. Those are the main reasons, plus all the other reasons why offline is superior and why it's much different from online play. Even still, you can't say online is useless based on these things, as I said, given the connection is good for both players.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
And online play, for the last 10 years I have had broadband, is bad more often than it is good.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
And online play, for the last 10 years I have had broadband, is bad more often than it is good.
Yes, I would agree with this as well. Though, if I hypothetically have a good connecton with you Shock and you with me, it will more often than not stay that way. What I mean is if we play 100 different series online, with the aforementioned premise, as long as everything remains the same throughout every series, we'll more often than not have a good connection with one another the majority of the series. Sure there are times where you have a good connection with someone one day and the next the connection is unplayable. But these situations, in my experience, don't happen very often.

Even in these good connection situations, all I'm saying is that they are good for practice.
 

STORMS

Co-founder
Founder
Premium Supporter
And online play, for the last 10 years I have had broadband, is bad more often than it is good.
Yep, and there's always someone bitching about lag... but that is something you have to deal with.

Put it this way... if there were only two tiers for online/offline play... We'd all agree that is goes like this:

God Tier = OFFLINE
Medicore Tier = online
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
I am an offline player. That is to say if im playing UMK3 its a %99.9999999999 safe bet im playing it offline. The few times Ive messed with it online I have to say the changes were DRASTIC. There is a definate stiffness and unresponsiveness to the controls that I am not used to. The changes in the games properties made it so things Im used to being able to do offline were not possible online. And somethings that arent possible offline are possible online. The biggest thing I noticed was just a huge difference in timing. Things like H.Smokes BnB that Im quite used to the timing on offline were much more difficult online. It became clear I would have to learn a whole new timing if I wanted to play online. Rather than confuse myself between two different sets of timings I shall just stick with offline.
Also Im being taught this game offline by some of the best players the game has to offer. Im not gonna mess up what im learning by learning bad habits online.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
OJO, we are at least 700 miles away from each over landlines, even if I play DreemerNJ who lives in Philly, 75 miles from me, we still don't always get a good, playable connection. You and I could never have an acceptable connection. I'd almost rather drive 90 minutes to Dreemer's place on a whim than play him online. In a more realistic scenario, Summoning lives 12 miles (25 minutes) from me, and I would never think about playing him online. We have played a bit online, and the match results are very different because it affects you at any distance. Even with P2P. At tournaments or casuals in person, win lose or draw I have a good time. Online, it's a shot in the dark.

Another thing to consider is, your definition of a good connection may be a much lower standard than mine.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
OJO, we are at least 700 miles away from each over landlines, even if I play DreemerNJ who lives in Philly, 75 miles from me, we still don't always get a good, playable connection. You and I could never have an acceptable connection. I'd almost rather drive 90 minutes to Dreemer's place on a whim than play him online. In a more realistic scenario, Summoning lives 12 miles (25 minutes) from me, and I would never think about playing him online. We have played a bit online, and the match results are very different because it affects you at any distance. Even with P2P. At tournaments or casuals in person, win lose or draw I have a good time. Online, it's a shot in the dark.
Yeah I know man, I was just using you and I as an example. And I would definitely rather play offline than online too.

Another thing to consider is, your definition of a good connection may be a much lower standard than mine.
As yours could be a much lower of standard than mine. :)
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Say an online player shows up to an offline tournament and wins the tournament. Are you guys saying that you would be that deliberately dishonest with yourself and not acknowledge where this player got his experience from?

HDR player "Royal Plush", who only had played online showed up to his first tournament, and won. Beating top players such as Alex Valle. Here's the interview: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6790451

Where else would this online player have gotten his experience? No tournaments, no offline casuals. Just 100% online play. To go out of your way to discredit online play at this point would seem very irrational, not to mention foolish. What about the top players in Sf saying that online is good for practice and match-up experience? What about these same players playing online players and saying that these players are good? Players who have only practiced through online play. Are they just imagining this? If it weren't for online, I would be terrible at fighting games. I would be absolutely low tier in UMK3 and in SSFIV. Based on all these examples, it proves that online isn't "useless".
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
I am totally aware of that, and still stand by what I have said. I once saw a house that I thought was made entirely of Legos, but until I saw how the house built, I didn't know there was a wooden frame inside keeping it from falling apart.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Say an online player shows up to an offline tournament and wins the tournament. Are you guys saying that you would be that deliberately dishonest with yourself and not acknowledge where this player got his experience from?

HDR player "Royal Plush", who only had played online showed up to his first tournament, and won. Beating top players such as Alex Valle. Here's the interview: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6790451

Where else would this online player have gotten his experience? No tournaments, no offline casuals. Just 100% online play. To go out of your way to discredit online play at this point would seem very irrational, not to mention foolish. What about the top players in Sf saying that online is good for practice and match-up experience? What about these same players playing online players and saying that these players are good? Players who have only practiced through online play. Are they just imagining this? If it weren't for online, I would be terrible at fighting games. I would be absolutely low tier in UMK3 and in SSFIV. Based on all these examples, it proves that online isn't "useless".
Dude, the guy has been playing SSF type games since 1993, it's not like he woke up in 2008 and started playing SF. stop being so dense.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
Also the online for SS2THDR uses the GGPO net code which is very very good. I can play HDR online all day. This is very different than trying to play UMK3 online with Mame 32k or XBOX live(which after trying it out with Phil I was surprised by how bad it was.)
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Dude, the guy has been playing SSF type games since 1993, it's not like he woke up in 2008 and started playing SF. stop being so dense.
I didn't say anything remotely like "he woke up in 2008 and started playing SF". Regardless of how long he's been playing, he's never played at an offline event, which is my whole point. He's been playing online. In any case, that was only an example and not even the main focus of that post. Just because my opinion doesn't agree with yours doesn't make me "dense".

Dark_Rob said:
Also the online for SS2THDR uses the GGPO net code which is very very good. I can play HDR online all day. This is very different than trying to play UMK3 online with Mame 32k or XBOX live(which after trying it out with Phil I was surprised by how bad it was.)
It's also played on XBL and PSN. And it's still online. As far as UMK3, UMK3 doesn't have the best of net code, and the discussion is more based on solid connections within a game with a solid netcode.

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Bottom line is, no matter how much you want it to be so, online isn't worthless. Whether it introduces you to new play styles, new players, players near yourself, etc. Or whether it lets you practice, gain match-up experience, situational combo experience and overall general game knowledge and experience.

I don't know why you guys have such a problem with this concept, when even top players have said the exact same things I am saying. Why is that these players can acknowledge online for what it is?
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
You act like I don't know what netplay is, or haven't been there myself. There was a time when I thought it was a viable source of competition, but it's not. You just want it to be recognized because it's all you do right now, all the while you run around board to board, praising tournaments and offline play as the place to be, so you can also get noticed. If you start out with no real knowledge of a previously existing game, netplay can take you to a certain point, but if you already have extensive epxerience in the game, it can do nothing but bring your level down because it messes with your established timing.

You promoted Phlush as if he'd never played the game offline, but yet, he's a veteran SFII player. There's a foundation layed that you ignore, which is why I posted the comment about the Lego House. He's never played at an offline event, before the last two he played in. Well, now he's played at 2, he's an offline player now. It DOES matter that he's been playing for a long time. It DOES matter that he has some kind of offline experience. He might only play online today, but he's been playing, forever. Going into tournaments 5 to 10 years ago, I would have called myself a primarily online player, with a couple people I could play in person from time to time, but I would never neglect to mention I played like it was going out of style back in the day and built my foundation that way. I find it hard to believe he's never played against people in person.

Fortunately, HDR and SSF4 have considerably better netplay than UMK3, but it's still not as good as offline, as I've played them both online and experienced my share of netplay nonsense. It cannot be as good, therefore you cannot explore your full potential because the limit is lower. Phlush will get even better now that he's decided to go to real tournaments. Players at tournaments even prefer to play on standard definition TVs because the 5ms or so delay to the HD is too much. 5ms!, or even through emulators with 2 or 3ms. They just won't do it. P2P isn't as good as offline, GGPO isn't as good as offline. I've heard people sing the praises of MKII on PSN, in how the netplay is so good, but I mean, I never really played MKII online that much because I don't play the game, and when I played it on there, I was blown away by how bad it was! It's just shocking.

Bottom line is, netplay is an unpredictable free for all of nonsense and guessing, far more than it is applying strategy and reactionary play. "I'm gonna go running today and try and beat my best time for a mile." "Well hold on there, we gotta add these sandbags to your ankles." "Oh, well, is it gonna be the 5 lb, or the 10 lbers?" "Oh, well, we don't know, but you're gonna always have at least the 5 lbers."