Online Feedback and Discussion Thread

[dookieagain]

If fighting games made use of the prediction and compensation mechanics that games like FPS' do for smoother online gameplay you would all have given up on Online play already. It just wouldn't be possible to land any combos.

There's a completely viable method of doing working fighting game netcode with 0 input delay. It's called rollback netcode, and whether using a third party solution (GGPO) or an internal version (SFxTekken, TTT2) it has been used to great effect in a number of games. The only reason it isn't in this one is that people idiotically defend input delay ridden netcode because "It seems fine."

@dookie
1. Skullgirls is not a big 3D game with a million things to process before it gets to the netcode
2. Skullgirls userbase is tiny compared to Injustice.
3. Skullgirls was designed for serious fighting game enthusiasts, not for a very broad demographic.
4. Skullgirls does not have interactive stage elements with transitions to another stage that it needs to sync.
5. Skullgirls uses middleware software for its netcode which is based on old 2D games and emulators, not modern 3D fighting games with a large userbase.

None of that means anything at all. Street Fighter x Tekken uses a non-middleware rollback netcode. Namco has licensed GGPO and used it in 3d fighters. Tekken Tag Tournament 2 uses some form of either rollback or predictive netcode.

Secondly the netcode doesn't have anything to do with the graphics. All the game needs to send to the client is information about what moves are being executed and on which frames. This is what training mode does with record and playback, the functionality is there. And Injustice doesn't need to keep track of three characters or assists, nor is any move Injustice as fast in frames as most low jabs in Skullgirls. (Except Superman super)

Also the fact that you're using the fact that this game is a multi-million seller with a huge audience as an excuse for why the netcode should be inferior to an indie game with a small userbase is the silliest thing ever. Basically you're saying that a game with a budget thousands of times the size and an audience thousands of times the size can't afford to do as good a job? Do you know how silly that is?

The reason we don't get better netcode is because the player base is willing to accept this terrible mess and say things like "It's as good as you can expect online." That's crap, we can obviously expect better. Better has been done.

The only point you make that is correct is that netcode, especially netcode as bad as this creates an environment that panders to people who want to exploit it and who don't understand or aren't interested in learning the game at a technical level. But that shouldn't be a valid excuse, even if this game isn't designed for tournament players, how is allowing players to use online as a viable way to level up their game hurting casual players?

Also if you're worried about the slight teleportation or visual desynch that is in rollback netcode then have it be a slider with a default input delay of ten, then it will look smooth as butter for people who don't care about proper technique and can be adjusted for people who would like to practice for competitive play.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

agreed with dookieagain Finally someone that realizes this games netcode is garbage and knows the difference between visual frame drop lag and input delay. I've been saying the netcode is bad and has severe input delay all week and people keep saying the online is fine and it's a problem on my end. This game has strict timing for certain combo links and the wakeup timing and reversals are super strict. With a netcode this bad the game becomes nearly unplayable due to the way it works. Some characters and lag tactics are unbeatable in lag. It's like MK9 all over again where there are lag tiers and tactics and offline tiers and tactics. 2 different games.

 

[Tang94]

agreed with dookieagain Finally someone that realizes this games netcode is garbage and knows the difference between visual frame drop lag and input delay. I've been saying the netcode is bad and has severe input delay all week and people keep saying the online is fine and it's a problem on my end. This game has strict timing for certain combo links and the wakeup timing and reversals are super strict. With a netcode this bad the game becomes nearly unplayable due to the way it works. Some characters and lag tactics are unbeatable in lag. It's like MK9 all over again where there are lag tiers and tactics and offline tiers and tactics. 2 different games.

Indeed. This pretty much sums up my concerns. I play Injustice and MK9 because I want to get better and to ultimately level up enough to enter tournaments. If I can't pull off my combo timing and proper punishment, then the online is pretty much useless. Again, I'm not trying to complain about it. It is what it is. My initial question, whether or not it could be patched to improve input delay, has pretty much been answered. With that said, for me (the aspiring tournament-goer) the online isn't going to help me much.

 

[tactfulgamer]

agreed with dookieagain Finally someone that realizes this games netcode is garbage and knows the difference between visual frame drop lag and input delay. I've been saying the netcode is bad and has severe input delay all week and people keep saying the online is fine and it's a problem on my end. This game has strict timing for certain combo links and the wakeup timing and reversals are super strict. With a netcode this bad the game becomes nearly unplayable due to the way it works. Some characters and lag tactics are unbeatable in lag. It's like MK9 all over again where there are lag tiers and tactics and offline tiers and tactics. 2 different games.

Not to sound grim like this game has no chance, because it definitely does and I can see them wanting to care of this baby and provide it with post tuning in the areas needed, but until they become aware...

Damn! I hope they fix it sooner than later! Hopefully we draw they're attention or maybe one of you guys can tweet them this thread. It is a shame. This is a wonderful game.

I agree with Tango94 as well.

 

[John Grizzly]

Not sure what game some of you are playing, but the online is terrible for me. I have a flawless connection with other online fighters (Tekken Tag 2, SF4), but this shit is just about unplayable. Most of the time, I CAN SEE THE LAG IN THE SELECT SCREEN.

THE SELECT SCREEN.

Fix this shit.

 

[dookieagain]

Damn! I hope they fix it! Hopefully we draw they're attention or maybe one of you guys can tweet them this thread. It is a shame. This is a wonderful game.

I agree with Tango94 as well.

It's not really something fixable. It would involve a full rewrite of the netcode, and that's more than would be viable testing in a patch. I'm guessing the best you could get would be reducing the base input delay to 2-3 frames, but that would cause more visual lag on poor connections and look less "smooth" to the casual playerbase.

Worse it isn't even a consistent input delay as in some games, it appears to float anywhere from 10 frames to about 30 frames. So everything is off by between 1/6 and 1/2 of a second, which means even if you adjust to it in one match there's no guarantee it will be similar in another. Adjusting also really doesn't help the biggest issue which is the fact that a lot of stuff is unpunishable or un-reactable online, but at least you can hit visually confirmed juggles. . . so that's something I guess.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

Yea it really is a shame. This game is pretty amazing and unique but if you don't have an offline scene and need to rely on the online for training it's going to be a discouraging battle leveling up your skills.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

It's definitely WAAAAAAAY better than MK9. But you're not hitting any Just Frames on this netcode. I have to say I'm kind of disapointed though 'cause SCV spoiled me online-wise.

 

[salvificblood]

Any kind of juggle online is incredibly difficult for me. Offline it's like shelling peas, online, I drop a lot of combos.

The worst part by far is the inability to block or dash on reaction to a lot of things. In a game where holding back = block, blocking in anticipation = walking back. Getting spammed in some of the more absurd connections just makes you feel like the game isn't worth playing online at all, at least not outside of your circle of friends with relatively decent connections to one another.

In short, the online isn't as bad as mk9 but it's still really bad. I can 100% feel the input delay when I go from playing a lot offline to online. Everything looks fine on the screen but the game feels incredibly unresponsive.

 

[big_aug]

I hate to break it to you guys, but a fighting game can never be as good online as offline. There is always latency, no matter how small it is. It can never be perfect. Even 50-100ms in a fighting game would probably make a big difference.

 

[THTB]

Idk about you, dookie, but after a while, Tag 2 felt pretty bad after I got more used to the game. Only mildly better than IGAU, actually.

IGAU isn't the best at all, but I have a lot less of a problem with it than MK9. It's more consistently on the stronger end, so I can actually use it to try and learn.

 

[Stchamps]

The netcode in this game is absolute garbage. As I have been playing more and more online, I actually think it is a step down from MK 9.

 

[Stchamps]

I hate to break it to you guys, but a fighting game can never be as good online as offline. There is always latency, no matter how small it is. It can never be perfect. Even 50-100ms in a fighting game would probably make a big difference.

I just want something to be equal to SS4 netcode. That game literally feels like you are playing offline. I would take MK 9's visual lag over Injustice's input lag any day.

 

[jaym7018]

Seeing lag and having lag are very different. According to what I've seen this game has 10 frame input delay, which is ridiculous.

For people saying they can do combos online that's because the hits in the combo remain a consistent distance apart so once you have the timing input delay should not affect it.

Input delay is a huge deal when it comes to blocking on reaction, anti-air, and punishment. It changes the game immensely. Stuff like Killer Frost Slide and Flash Psycho Crusher get way way better online, and stuff that should be punishable like Green Lantern slam becomes much safer, and moving in on a Deathstroke or stopping certain types of pressure is just impossible.

Literally input delay of this magnitude changes the game immensely. And before you say the game needs input delay, that's crap, GGPO exists, Vampire Savior and Skullgirls both have adjustable to 0 input delay. Input delay is a sloppy solution for hiding poor connections and making the game look smoother but play worse.

It's fine if you don't care about optimal punishment, but online literally trains bad habits into you, whether it's treating unsafe moves as safe, or encouraging you to challenge anti-air that would be effective offline. I'd give a lot to have clear ping indication and adjustable input delay a la Skullgirls which for all its lack of features online gives you the options that matter for using online as a serious tool for improving your game.

Basically this. Causexof inpit delay frame traps that shoupdntcbe frame traps are created. Punishing a movexthats say -14 on block becomes really tough with input delay. This is why people though deathstrokes sword flip was safe. But the biggest issue by far is blocking for me. Just blocking a jump into a sweep can be a pain in the ass. This is the first fighting game ive played where online is giving me noticable issues. Others i play being blazblu sf4 and mvc.

 

[dookieagain]

I hate to break it to you guys, but a fighting game can never be as good online as offline. There is always latency, no matter how small it is. It can never be perfect. Even 50-100ms in a fighting game would probably make a big difference.

There's a completely viable method of doing working fighting game netcode with 0 input delay. It's called rollback netcode, and whether using a third party solution (GGPO) or an internal version (SFxTekken, TTT2) it has been used to great effect in a number of games. The only reason it isn't in this one is that people idiotically defend input delay ridden netcode because "It seems fine."

 

[big_aug]

There's a completely viable method of doing working fighting game netcode with 0 input delay. It's called rollback netcode, and whether using a third party solution (GGPO) or an internal version (SFxTekken, TTT2) it has been used to great effect in a number of games. The only reason it isn't in this one is that people idiotically defend input delay ridden netcode because "It seems fine."

So if there is no input delay, then the person with the best connection wins. There is always input delay online. It can't be eliminated. It's the same reason why you shoot someone in the head in Counter Strike but you die. They got the information first, they reacted first,and they shot first even though it appeared to you as if you shot first. The "input delay" just feels like lag to me. It's almost non-existent in some matches while it's horrible in others. That to me says it's connection based. Either deal with it and adjust your play, or don't play online.

People are hitting some ridiculous combos against me, I can tell you that.

 

[Stchamps]

So if there is no input delay, then the person with the best connection wins. There is always input delay online. It can't be eliminated. It's the same reason why you shoot someone in the head in Counter Strike but you die. They got the information first, they reacted first,and they shot first even though it appeared that you shot first. The "input delay" just feels like lag to me. It's almost non-existent in some matches while it's horrible in others. That to me says it's connection based. Either deal with it and adjust your play, or don't play online.

People are hitting some ridiculous combos against me, I can tell you that.

Well guys we have definitive proof right here that Injustice's netcode is fine. People are hitting some ridiculously long combos against this guy. What more proof do we need?

 

[big_aug]

Well guys we have definitive proof right here that Injustice's netcode is fine. People are hitting some ridiculously long combos against this guy. What more proof do we need?

Hey, like I said. If you don't like it, don't play it. There's definitely some delay. All you bad asses who want to practice for offline should practice offline. Everyone knows online and offline aren't comparable in any fighting game. I bet no one ever practiced for a tournament by playing online.

And like I said, you aren't getting rid of delay. It isn't possible. Hell, I don't know shit about networks and connections, but I can tell you the information has to travel to and from the server. It can't ever be delay free. If it's 60 frames per second then thats 6 frames per 100ms. So even 50ms delay makes the game off by 3 frames. I'm pretty sure that's a lot in fighting games for good players.

 

[dookieagain]

So if there is no input delay, then the person with the best connection wins. There is always input delay online. It can't be eliminated. It's the same reason why you shoot someone in the head in Counter Strike but you die. They got the information first, they reacted first,and they shot first even though it appeared that you shot first. The "input delay" just feels like lag to me. Either deal with it and adjust your play, or don't play online.

People are hitting some ridiculous combos against me, I can tell you that.

Again combos happen at a particular rate so you can do them in lag if you have them correctly spaced.

Also rollback netcode does not mean the person with better connection wins. The frame data is the frame data. Having a faster connection isn't like using a hitscan weapon in Counterstrike because a stand 1 is still 8 frames. Secondly rollback netcode compares the inputs and the frames between the two players and when they disagree rolls the match back to the moment of disagreement and plays it back. (Thus the minor visual hitching.)

So no you're incorrect on all counts. It can and has been eliminated it does not give an advantage to a player with a better connection. Besides input delay gives an advantage to a player with a worse connection since they can rely on ruining their opponent's timing and practice.

 

[Stchamps]

Hey, like I said. If you don't like it, don't play it. There's definitely some delay. All you bad asses who want to practice for offline should practice offline. Everyone knows online and offline aren't comparable in any fighting game. I bet no one ever practiced for a tournament by playing online.

And like I said, you aren't getting rid of delay. It isn't possible. Hell, I don't know shit about networks and connections, but I can tell you the information has to travel to and from the server. It can't ever be delay free. If it's 60 frames per second then thats 6 frames per 100ms. So even 50ms delay makes the game off by 3 frames. I'm pretty sure that's a lot in fighting games for good players.

I never said it would be perfect. I'm just wondering why NRS can't get on SS4's level. SS4 is far superior to Injustice's netcode.

 

[dookieagain]

Hey, like I said. If you don't like it, don't play it. There's definitely some delay. All you bad asses who want to practice for offline should practice offline. Everyone knows online and offline aren't comparable in any fighting game. I bet no one ever practiced for a tournament by playing online.

I guess you've never heard of Wolfkrone, or Xian, or Viscant, or Maximillion, or the entire Super Turbo community, or WingZero and Skyking_J in Skullgirls.

Offline is better but look, I live in a community where maybe 8 people play this game, assuming we each learn two characters I'll have matchup experience with 16 members of the cast that leaves me with 8 characters who I need online to get live practice against. And that's assuming that everyone plays different characters, in reality it's more like 8 people with 5 Supermen, Batmen, Aquamen, and Green Lanterns.

If you don't believe that netcode can have 0 input delay, please read this:

http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skullgirls-ggpo-and-you/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you

 

[big_aug]

"So it all depends on what you want out of the game – GGPO allows users to choose to experience anything between zero and eight frames of input lag. Those who want the true tournament experience can choose zero lag and get training that will apply equally well offline, but they will have to get used to dealing with rollbacks. Alternatively, players who want smoother visuals but can tolerate a bit of input lag can choose 2 to 4 frames of lag, which is generally acceptable for most people and will have fewer visual oddities on average connections. And casual players can choose 5 to 8 frames of lag, which means the game will look super smooth but gameplay will lag quite a bit."

That's rollback netcode. So you still need a good connection or it's going to be choppy. If you have a shitty connection or you play people with shitty connections, it's going to be choppy and rolling back.

I've never played a game with it, so I don't know. It seems to me you could be into a combo and get rolled back if the other person has more delay/shit connection. I don't understand how you "get training that will apply equally well offline" if you are getting rollbacks.

"To summarize - GGPO allows players to choose between lag-free gameplay with occasionally choppy visuals depending on the connection, or smoother visuals with more gameplay lag. Traditional networking code doesn’t offer any choice except smooth visuals with laggier gameplay depending on the connection, and while this looks nice, the option to have lag-free gameplay is a much more instructive online experience if players choose to use it."

So yea, if you have good connections, then it doesn't really matter much anyway. It actually sounds like it's not really lag free. It seems like it transfers the lag to come after rather than before actions.

But if I'm completely wrong, then that's fine too. In that case - SCREW NRS FOR NO GGPO!

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Seeing lag and having lag are very different. According to what I've seen this game has 10 frame input delay, which is ridiculous.

Please tell me this is a joke.

 

[Tang94]

I guess you've never heard of Wolfkrone, or Xian, or Viscant, or Maximillion, or the entire Super Turbo community, or WingZero and Skyking_J in Skullgirls.

Offline is better but look, I live in a community where maybe 8 people play this game, assuming we each learn two characters I'll have matchup experience with 16 members of the cast that leaves me with 8 characters who I need online to get live practice against. And that's assuming that everyone plays different characters, in reality it's more like 8 people with 5 Supermen, Batmen, Aquamen, and Green Lanterns.

If you don't believe that netcode can have 0 input delay, please read this:

http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skullgirls-ggpo-and-you/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you

You should definitely be grateful for the 8 people you do have to play against. I have 2 and they don't play that often.

 

[dookieagain]

Please tell me this is a joke.

Look inside yourself. . . you know it to be true.

You play the Dark Side. . . haven't you wondered how people can fail to punish a move that's -21 on block with an 8 frame normal?