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big_aug

Kombatant
dookieagain

So can you explain that rollback netcode? I'm genuinely interested and curious. What happens to the lag? It can't be eliminated as the article you linked to states. It seems like you trade input delay for rollbacks. That sounds like just another form of the real problem - shitty connections.

Player 1 - 50ms latency
Player 2 - 200ms latency

Player 1 hits player 2 in the face. On player 1's screen, he sees the hit. Player 2 saw the hit incoming, so he blocked it. Player 1 gets rolled back and never actually hit Player 2.

The larger the difference in connection, the worse the rollbacks would be. Am I getting this right?
 
dookieagain

dookieagain

Last Bastion of Arcades
big_aug said:
dookieagain

So can you explain that rollback netcode? I'm genuinely interested and curious. What happens to the lag? It can't be eliminated as the article you linked to states. It seems like you trade input delay for rollbacks. That sounds like just another form of the real problem - shitty connections.

Player 1 - 50ms latency
Player 2 - 200ms latency

Player 1 hits player 2 in the face. On player 1's screen, he sees the hit. Player 2 saw the hit incoming, so he blocked it. Player 1 gets rolled back and never actually hit Player 2.

The larger the difference in connection, the worse the rollbacks would be. Am I getting this right?
Click to expand...
That's right to some extent, but I mean what we're talking about there would be seeing a hit spark change to a block spark 9 frames later. (150 ping = .15 seconds = 9 frames) Which can be disconcerting, but the worst thing that happens there is the second part of a hitconfirm since you can't react faster than 21 frames. (Give or take human reaction time)

On the other hand let's look at 10 frame input delay which would look smooth in the above example. Let's say we are both at neutral, I do Flash's Lightning Charge, now for the sake of argument, let's say it's 30 frames to hit. Now perfect reaction from you means you hit back 21 frames after noticing it. HOWEVER 10 frame input delay, you get your block out on frame 31. . . but wait it hits on frame 30. Now in rollback netcode, you would have had 9 frames to hit back and have a window to block. Not a huge window, but that's all the difference in the world.

Make it Killer Frost slide and that same thing was 40% and a reset.

So you're exchanging visual smoothness (no 9 frame hitch where hit became block) for actually changing the mechanics of the game, since flash now has a move that is unblockable on reaction.

Example: The dp at the end hits clean then rollbacks to a trade:
 
B

big_aug

Kombatant
dookieagain said:
That's right to some extent, but I mean what we're talking about there would be seeing a hit spark change to a block spark 9 frames later. (150 ping = .15 seconds = 9 frames) Which can be disconcerting, but the worst thing that happens there is the second part of a hitconfirm since you can't react faster than 21 frames. (Give or take human reaction time)

On the other hand let's look at 10 frame input delay which would look smooth in the above example. Let's say we are both at neutral, I do Flash's Lightning Charge, now for the sake of argument, let's say it's 30 frames to hit. Now perfect reaction from you means you hit back 21 frames after noticing it. HOWEVER 10 frame input delay, you get your block out on frame 31. . . but wait it hits on frame 30. Now in rollback netcode, you would have had 9 frames to hit back and have a window to block. Not a huge window, but that's all the difference in the world.

Make it Killer Frost slide and that same thing was 40% and a reset.

So you're exchanging visual smoothness (no 9 frame hitch where hit became block) for actually changing the mechanics of the game, since flash now has a move that is unblockable on reaction.

Example: The dp at the end hits clean then rollbacks to a trade:
Click to expand...
That 10 frame input delay is there because the person is lagging. If no one is lagging, then that input delay isn't there. It would be a few frames difference. I think if they had everyone's ping instead of bars, there would be far less issues.

Unless you are trying to say there is a 10 frame delay built into the game. I'd say that's totally false being the delay gets worse when you're playing people with horrible connections.

I don't know how you'd test it without having numbers for latency instead of bars.

And aren't both really changing things? Changing hits to blocks, blocks to hits, etc and delaying frames are all pretty big.
 
Lt. Boxy Angelman

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
dookieagain said:
Look inside yourself. . . you know it to be true.

You play the Dark Side. . . haven't you wondered how people can fail to punish a move that's -21 on block with an 8 frame normal?
Click to expand...
Yes...yes, I do.

Or why it is that my iAShots, NO MATTER WHAT THE FUCK I DO NEVER COME OUT AT THE RIGHT HEIGHT.
Wired, strong connection, with nothing else running in the house, and I get an empty landing half the time, or a late standing Shot.
It's not me. It's the old Tom Brady "Sub's Clone vs MKDC Lantern's DB1" argument, except Clone is online, and Lantern is off.
Inconsistency is a fucking killer.
 
L

lebanese boy

Kombatant
After playing like 300 games online
Injustice online is garbage just like mk9
Idk where is that fucking 2 years netcode they working on ..
yeah people r right by saying online can never be like offline in fighting games but cmon
Try sf or tekken and see how great it is online makes mk and injustice online look like a damn ps2 server
 
Primiera

Primiera

Wonderful Woman
Online is noticeably worse than all the 2D fighters I play (BB, P4, SG, DS, SSF4, 3SOE) but it's usually still playable. Tight windows involving punishes and reversals can be a complete bitch, though.
 
Redk9

Redk9

Mortal
Why people would ever defend sub par online is beyond me. We all realize online is bare-able, but the customer should always strive for a better product. Even if your okay with the ridiculous input lag, what is the harm in pushing future netherealm titles to have better online? Its counter productive.
 
GodsLonelyman

GodsLonelyman

Kombatant
Redk9 said:
Why people would ever defend sub par online is beyond me. We all realize online is bare-able, but the customer should always strive for a better product. Even if your okay with the ridiculous input lag, what is the harm in pushing future netherealm titles to have better online? Its counter productive.
Click to expand...
Agreed. No one is saying that online should be equal to offline. We just want a netcode thats viable for matchup experience thats not ridden with input delay, thus altering the way the game is played completely making online pretty much useless. No online will ever match offline, but this games netcode is terrible, and comparing it to MK9 is not even an option, MK9's online was the epitome of bad programming and unacceptable.
 
K

Komatose

The Prettiest
This thread has turned into a disgrace and I am sorry the OP has to put up with any of this nonsense taking place in here.

THTB The question has been answered. I recommend you close it if my recommendations mean anything.
 
Dandy J

Dandy J

i can see all the amine
big aug it sounds like you missed out on TTT2! ha. I don't understand it on a very technical level, but basically rollback netcode works by removing a certain amount of frames from the beginning of an action and then uses that time to process what happened and then compensates by syncing the game back up so that the action happens when it should. I'm not describing it well but I think there's an article somewhere where Ponder explains it. Basically the effect is that you don't see the first couple frames of startup on any given move or action (which you'd never notice in a 3D 60fps game anyway), and the result is that you're playing the game online with VERY little input delay, so little that in most cases 99% of people, including myself (being pretty lag-sensitive) can't even notice it. You can play as if you are playing offline, straight up.

Also, netcode for fighting games should not be used with server infrastructure. NRS might still use server-based online, which is archaic for fighting games, so I hope they don't. With good netcodes, rollback based or not, the server is used for matchmaking, then the information is simply relayed between the two players only while they are playing. Additional information such as replays (both recorded and streaming for lobby systems) and match results can be sent out on any kind of delay as needed, to not affect the playability of the match.

I don't really understand why NRS doesn't use the GGPO library or create then own in-house version. NIH isn't even an issue since they are a distinctly American company, and even Japanese developers such as Namco and Capcom teams have gotten on the train. I'm glad the online is improved and it's clear they care about the game with all the balancing, frame data, etc, but I'm surprised they didn't go all-out with the online. It's arguably just as important to the life of a game as all those things, especially a non-Capcom one. But either way they will make money with or without hardcore fighting game players supporting their game.
 
steelio2006

steelio2006

Noob
people over at the PSn has been pretty awesome too. working on beating through the Battle mode for the character endings. then i'll be tackling the online portion of the game.
 
Killphil

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
TheSpore

TheSpore

Nurgle Chaos God of Death and Disease
I haven't recieved any hate mail, but people have been straight quiting when they lose instead of going another match, seriously how do you learn if your gonna allow me to win once and then not try to regain your honor.
 
Awake

Awake

Noob
I have a completely different experience. There are so many rage quiters, and hate mailers....25% of my losses come from rage quits :(
 
trustinme

trustinme

xbl-OBS trustinme
although i seem to have a good connection with pretty much everyone ive played so far it seems to take forever to find a match and ive had 5 rage quits so far,only played ten matches and my killer frost is fucking garbage,i cant even do the standing reset yet lol.enjoying the game though,alot more than i thought i would.
 
B

big_aug

Kombatant
I think the reason do it like this is because it's really good for 90% of the people who buy these games. People posting on TYM and SRK about frame data, tier lists, etc are the extreme minority. Most people aren't playing this competitively at all. For those people, the online mode is fun and enjoyable. People probably don't have issues with it.

This is even more true in a game like MK or Injustice which attracts a much larger casual fanbase than something like Street Fighter or Tekken.

I still say if you have amazing internet, it doesn't matter what netcode is used. We don't have amazing internet in the United States, and we are huge country. It sucks ass for online gaming lol
 
MorbidAltruism

MorbidAltruism

Get over here!
AndresNoGiant said:
Seriously locating a match can take forever. Then I get this, found a match, opponent declined.....repeat.
Click to expand...
That is so annoying. The only way I can find a game is by going into KOTH. Then I have to wait 3-5 matches until it is my turn to fight once. Couple that with the netcode... yeah. I prefer offline. :16Bit
 
Lt. Boxy Angelman

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
MorbidAltruism said:
That is so annoying. The only way I can find a game is by going into KOTH. Then I have to wait 3-5 matches until it is my turn to fight once. Couple that with the netcode... yeah. I prefer offline. :16Bit
Click to expand...
Same here. I'm already pretty much turned off by it. It's MK all over again up until this point.
And the few decent battles I do get, I can't accomplish shit because none of my reponses are coming out on time.
Exactly how the fuck am I supposed to punish when the way I KNOW is supposed to work is null and void?
 
AndresNoGiant

AndresNoGiant

"I talk to fish Bitches"
KOTH is fun among friends but waiting 5-7 minutes just to get to one match can be a long time. I must be lucky because most connections I've had so far so good. But most of them are among friends who live right down the street, so I can't really say.
 
ragnar0kz28

ragnar0kz28

Warrior
Net code has around the same probles as MK9, as for me, non armored skills randomly beating out wake ups, same as in mk9, dif recoverys from some moves, same as in MK9, I was playing a Killer Frost that beat out most of my back forward catwoman wakeup dashes whit her slide, like 50/50 its anoying, also Black Adams braindeadness, and DeathStrokes super recovery after the df2 rifle, I almost shure he will get nerfed.
 
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