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General/Other - Fisticuffs One year of Speedbag: The future of Fisticuffs Cage

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
If I wanted to play a top 5 character, I would play A-List, not Fisticuffs Cage and Balanced Kenshi as I do.

Sorry for wanting Fisticuffs to be viable...
he is viable. He only loooks subpar when compared to his top 3 counterpart.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
he is viable. He only loooks subpar when compared to his top 3 counterpart.
After one year playing him, i don't think he is tournament viable. His tools are surpassed by too many characters.

Not to mention he has design problems that affect his functionality.
 

coconutshrimp

Damn vro, hadda mess with yo auntie
I honestly want to see why some people think Fisticuffs is viable and I don't want to hear "the base character of Cage is really solid so Fisticuffs is good" argument cause that argument is seriously flawed and you look stupid arguing the base character of Cage as a reason as to why his Fisticuffs variation is viable.
 

FROST_

KH | DsV BLOODxGOD
Well, nrs guys will do what they want, but that doesn't change the fact that there are certain characters and variations that have not received the proper attention. This must be pointed out.



All fisticuffs strings cancelled into bump are also negative, by the way xD

Fisticuffs is not balanced, he has flaws everywhere, and simply can't play mkx as he is now. Read the whole thread with detail and you will realize that even his main distinctive string works incorrectly.
Mmm don't need another cage variation being good. I personally think their need too be 3 variations that are Skullgirls type of balanced. Not mkx balanced with 2 super good variations and 1 garbage my 2 cents

It's not that bad playing ancestral now I know he has a safe string on block into reload. And certain other ones are safe against certain characters. I stopped playing him but started playing him again since then
Add me I'm trying learn Kung jinn ancestral I like the potential in his game but I'm struggling Ik his 221, 111, b21, b14 are safe on block reloads though Kappa
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
Mmm don't need another cage variation being good. I personally think their need too be 3 variations that are Skullgirls type of balanced. Not mkx balanced with 2 super good variations and 1 garbage my 2 cents


Add me I'm trying learn Kung jinn ancestral I like the potential in his game but I'm struggling Ik his 221, 111, b21, b14 are safe on block reloads though Kappa
So because A-List is godlike and Stunt double is good, Fisticuffs does not deserve to live? Really? What kind of logic is that?

People need to realize that different variations are like different characters. You can compare some of their tools, but in the end, in most cases they have more differences than coincidences.
 

FROST_

KH | DsV BLOODxGOD
So because A-List is godlike and Stunt double is good, Fisticuffs does not deserve to live? Really? What kind of logic is that?

Did I not say I want ALL characters to be SKULLGIRLS type if BALANCED? if I said that Obviously I would want all 3 variations equal! As the current meta for nrs games you will have 1 ODEE variation 1 good/ mid tier variation 1 terrible variation tbh.

People need to realize that different variations are like different characters. You can compare some of their tools, but in the end, in most cases they have more differences than coincidences.
Changes I would make to fisticuffs

1) speed bag changes
- ALL even hits are now +1 on block
- ALL even hits are now +4 on hit
- ALL odd hits are now -3 on block
- All odd hits are now +2 on hit
- Speedbags recovery on whiff is dropped 5 frames
- Only after the first 4 hits can be special cancelled (leaves you at +1 on block, because it's a even hit) or +4 on hit.
- Damage increase of 3-4% for FULL string of Speedbag
- Speedbag cancel is now +|-0 for brass knuckles on hit
- Speedbag cancel is now -3 on block for brass knuckles (depends on hit count can be -5 on odd hit)
- Speedbag last hit is now -1 on block with small pushback so +1

Brass knuckle changes
- F3 cancels is now +2 on hit
(Allows a d1 or d3 check)
- F3 cancel is now -5 on block
(Safe from all characters)
- 114 cancel is now +8 on hit
- 114 cancel is now +3 on block
- 113 cancel has a 3 frame gap
- 113 cancel is now +4 on hit
(Allows d4 or f2 mixup)
- 113 cancel is now -10 on block
-12 cancel is now -5 on hit
- 12 cancel is now -3 on hit
- d4 (max range) cancel is now -7 on block

Throws
- is now 14% damage down from 17%
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
Changes I would make to fisticuffs

1) speed bag changes
- ALL even hits are now +1 on block
- ALL even hits are now +4 on hit
- ALL odd hits are now -3 on block
- All odd hits are now +2 on hit
- Speedbags recovery on whiff is dropped 5 frames
- Only after the first 4 hits can be special cancelled (leaves you at +1 on block, because it's a even hit) or +4 on hit.
- Damage increase of 3-4% for FULL string of Speedbag
- Speedbag cancel is now +|-0 for brass knuckles on hit
- Speedbag cancel is now -3 on block for brass knuckles (depends on hit count can be -5 on odd hit)
- Speedbag last hit is now -1 on block with small pushback so +1

Brass knuckle changes
- F3 cancels is now +2 on hit
(Allows a d1 or d3 check)
- F3 cancel is now -5 on block
(Safe from all characters)
- 114 cancel is now +8 on hit
- 114 cancel is now +3 on block
- 113 cancel has a 3 frame gap
- 113 cancel is now +4 on hit
(Allows d4 or f2 mixup)
- 113 cancel is now -10 on block
-12 cancel is now -5 on hit
- 12 cancel is now -3 on hit
- d4 (max range) cancel is now -7 on block

Throws
- is now 14% damage down from 17%
Some good ideas here!

Speedbag even hits + on block could be too much imo: Liu, Sub and Tremor would have a reaaaally bad time getting out.

About "Speedbag last hit is now -1 on block with small pushback so +1", it would be useless unless they decide to fix speedbag's whiffing issues. In theory, now you should be able to land 6 hits on block, but in practice this rarely happens, there are random whiffing issues depending on the character, position in the screen, and stand/crouch block.

Nice changes for bump cancels. An exfistbump faster and with better properties, that made things like 113~exfistbump slightly plus on block and comboable on hit would also be great. Fisti now can't combo off 113 without commiting to a full punishable nutpunch/exnutpunch.

Throws
- is now 14% damage down from 17%
Man...xD
 

FROST_

KH | DsV BLOODxGOD
Some good ideas here!

Thank you

Speedbag even hits + on block could be too much imo: Liu, Sub and Tremor would have a reaaaally bad time getting out.
I mean well having them +4 would only really have a d1 check because I'm thinking its (9f)? Or a b1 (11f mid) the meta from that would be would you really go for a F2 (15f OH) or d4 (11f low). Unless you want to pressure them with b12 staggers. Which depending on the hit count decides if your +1 which can be armored or -3 which your turn ends. It'll make the opponent respect your options along with giving the cage player options.

About "Speedbag last hit is now -1 on block with small pushback so +1", it would be useless unless they decide to fix speedbag's whiffing issues. In theory, now you should be able to land 6 hits on block, but in practice this rarely happens, there are random whiffing issues depending on the character, position in the screen, and stand/crouch block.

Yeah a universal hitbox patch for the whiff recovery would have to be fixed for this change to be really a big deal! But if it does get fixed I think it would give the b12 meta a extra layer especially after if you end your last combo into nut punch for free pressure.

Nice changes for bump cancels. An exfistbump faster and with better properties, that made things like 113~exfistbump slightly plus on block and comboable on hit would also be great. Fisti now can't combo off 113 without commiting to a full punishable nutpunch/exnutpunch.

I thinking having 113, combo after a fiat bump would be neat it could make the 113 or 114 cancel more of a threat of do I block low so they be at -10 or so I can armor through? Then you can incorporate 114 to catch people pressing buttons or stagger the 11 for making punishes.


Man...xD
Lol he gets a 3-4 damage buff but 17% a bit much lol
 

Nedyrc

Noob
But... If they buff fisticuffs like that they'll end up nerfing him again. And we will be here discussing #Fistibuffs . Speedbag shouldnt be that + on block ever. if its + it guarentees a down poke. if they respect poke you can down 4 into run into b1212121. also to be comfortable you can always down poke into ex balls. you get most of the meter you spent on ex balls with speedbag. IMO he only needs an advancing pressure tool, speedbag is FINE the way it is(except whiffing issues). it doesnt need to be overpowered to make fisticuffs good
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
But... If they buff fisticuffs like that they'll end up nerfing him again. And we will be here discussing #Fistibuffs . Speedbag shouldnt be that + on block ever. if its + it guarentees a down poke. if they respect poke you can down 4 into run into b1212121. also to be comfortable you can always down poke into ex balls. you get most of the meter you spent on ex balls with speedbag. IMO he only needs an advancing pressure tool, speedbag is FINE the way it is(except whiffing issues). it doesnt need to be overpowered to make fisticuffs good
I also think speedbag + on block would be a problem.
Imo 9 startup and -2 on block would be perfect (with whiffing problems solved, of course...).
Now it is 10 startup and -3 on block. Seems similar but those two frames make a significant difference. Also another option would be making even hits -1 and odd ones -3, to change the rythm as originally was. And another option, keep the current frames, but remove the gap.

Totally agree with the advancing pressure string.
 

FROST_

KH | DsV BLOODxGOD
But... If they buff fisticuffs like that they'll end up nerfing him again. And we will be here discussing #Fistibuffs . Speedbag shouldnt be that + on block ever. if its + it guarentees a down poke. if they respect poke you can down 4 into run into b1212121. also to be comfortable you can always down poke into ex balls. you get most of the meter you spent on ex balls with speedbag. IMO he only needs an advancing pressure tool, speedbag is FINE the way it is(except whiffing issues). it doesnt need to be overpowered to make fisticuffs good
You can't d4 on block and run in after b121212.. B121212 is +1 (in my changes) so his d4 is (11f) so that is a 9 frame gap Ik that is not guaranteed. And even if they still block the d4 after your b121212 you are now -6 instead of +1 so you doing a -6 move into a short run into b1 (11f) is a huge gap to get Full combo punished. You'd have to do d4xx cancel to be -7 so your safe. These changes will diffently not break fisticuffs let alone even make it on A-List level it would be worse than stunt double barely. It's enough to make the variation viable and have options that only a cage player that is thinking can destroy people easily. But even if the cage player is saucy with his reads and etc. he still not braindead he will still have to think 2 moves ahead of the opp to win. That's why these changes are GOOD changes. The only thing that would break this variation is if his cancel recovery went from 40f to 15-20f recovery. Tbh
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
You can't d4 on block and run in after b121212.. B121212 is +1 (in my changes) so his d4 is (11f) so that is a 9 frame gap Ik that is not guaranteed. And even if they still block the d4 after your b121212 you are now -6 instead of +1 so you doing a -6 move into a short run into b1 (11f) is a huge gap to get Full combo punished. You'd have to do d4xx cancel to be -7 so your safe. These changes will diffently not break fisticuffs let alone even make it on A-List level it would be worse than stunt double barely. It's enough to make the variation viable and have options that only a cage player that is thinking can destroy people easily. But even if the cage player is saucy with his reads and etc. he still not braindead he will still have to think 2 moves ahead of the opp to win. That's why these changes are GOOD changes. The only thing that would break this variation is if his cancel recovery went from 40f to 15-20f recovery. Tbh
Flame Fist Liu Kang exDD1 move has 19f recovery (34f the regular one), and 2in1 cancelable...just saying :rolleyes:
 

Nedyrc

Noob
You can't d4 on block and run in after b121212..
You dont block low against jc. If they block low you go for f24 = profit.
If you think they might block low you can use ex balls after d4. If you dont overuse it they will %100 release block after d4 and will be opened up for more b12 fun. if they take d4 and block exballs or block both, you are +4 .You can f34 if you think they will move. You are -1(not sure) if they block f34. If they make one wrong guess in this sequence jc is on top of them doing b121212121. and if they guess everything correct then jc is -1.
A-List is limited by stamina, SD is limited by clones and clone cooldown, Fisticuffs is limited by - frames of speedbag. This is why fisticuffs shouldnt be + after speedbag. And speedbag buffs wouldnt solve his footsie game problem. Which is, he doesnt have a footsie game :D
 

FROST_

KH | DsV BLOODxGOD
You dont block low against jc. If they block low you go for f24 = profit.
If you think they might block low you can use ex balls after d4. If you dont overuse it they will %100 release block after d4 and will be opened up for more b12 fun. if they take d4 and block exballs or block both, you are +4 .You can f34 if you think they will move. You are -1(not sure) if they block f34. If they make one wrong guess in this sequence jc is on top of them doing b121212121. and if they guess everything correct then jc is -1.
A-List is limited by stamina, SD is limited by clones and clone cooldown, Fisticuffs is limited by - frames of speedbag. This is why fisticuffs shouldnt be + after speedbag. And speedbag buffs wouldnt solve his footsie game problem. Which is, he doesnt have a footsie game :D
Now I can understand that situation of sequences. But they are +4 so they can armor after the green balls. It happens. They can armor inbetween the d4, and green balls? I do think they are true block strings. I said the start up frames for both options showing they can be fuzzied, but barely. Mostly you'll be reacting to the animation of either move. And I think the F34 is -5 and F344 is -6 respectively. So the F3 option is out unless you have meter to F3, green balls. So theirs still a meta after +1 speed bag. This speed bag isn't like leatherface +2 with pushback oH bop lol. With this +1 the opp can armor any option you do after, or even beat out you F2 option with a quick 7-11f start up mid. So you have take that into account also. The only option is do I do this mixup or do my F3.. Or block and start my coumterpicking game. That's why +1 is the frame advantage I chose. Especially because if you stop it at let's say 4 hit you are -1 so you can play a whole better meta with staggers. But I think making the F3 cancel safe along with F3, green balls a good improvement of is he going to do green balls or cancel? Should I press a button to blow up the cancel or block the green balls? This variation with my changes implemented would add a balanced yet character that requires a perfect thought of what you want to do 2-3 steps ahead. Which I think every variation should be like. Instead of autopilot or dumbed down offense. And in a way the b1 staggers with my changes would be considered a rekka because you can delay it or keep going with out making them safer of course.
 

FROST_

KH | DsV BLOODxGOD
Doesnt matter if they "can armor" you are +. If they armor that means they made a good read. And only solution to this is a better read. Reading factor is excluded while talking about character balance... (By the way f34 is -3 according to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tU7Hqk8VtuEM3Pj1T4pKY-4dAuiO-Lkh6N4kStJGAxY/edit#gid=343404981)
And what is f344 exacly? you mean f244?
What do you mean the option to armor doesn't matter? It's a option the cage player has to respect just like shinnok hellsparks which are +14 but can still be armored. F34 is -3 ok so it's the end of cage turn still either way. Because his fastest move I think is 7 frames which because they're -3 already it makes their d3 come out in 10f instead so a 7-9f mid, low, oH can beat you out of any option. Or they can block your d3 and have you at -12. You got to pick your poison on that option. Yes I do mean F244 my bad. But you got to look at the ending factor of the options you just pointed out they leave cage in a bad spot.
 

Nedyrc

Noob
Because reading isnt a solid thing. It changes so we cant really talk about "what if they armor" Yes they can, like every other move with a gap. (Although i dont think or have seen anyone armor after d4...)
Yes you are right. With plus speedbag Cage's turn ends after they make those reads. But if they hesitate once or make a bad read jc can just run up and do his thing. If they get hit cage can just run up and do his thing. There are only two viable answer which are either blocking everything correctly or armor out which can be baited.
+ on block speedbag is bad because it gives jc an ability to fk every character with bad armor, And doesnt help him that much in any other matchup
 

FROST_

KH | DsV BLOODxGOD
Because reading isnt a solid thing. It changes so we cant really talk about "what if they armor" Yes they can, like every other move with a gap. (Although i dont think or have seen anyone armor after d4...)
Yes you are right. With plus speedbag Cage's turn ends after they make those reads. But if they hesitate once or make a bad read jc can just run up and do his thing. If they get hit cage can just run up and do his thing. There are only two viable answer which are either blocking everything correctly or armor out which can be baited.
+ on block speedbag is bad because it gives jc an ability to fk every character with bad armor, And doesnt help him that much in any other matchup
I see your point and I can tell you see mines I agree it won't help in some mu's but having him in people face with plus frames or plus cancels will give him a fighting chance. The Speedbag can be -3 but what options will he have but to block? I think -1 to +1 is a good frame number to where he has options and has to respect options. I think it'll be balanced. It's not like scorpion pressure with 21, 214, 1 are all plus but start off high. So that's their balance.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Jesus people.

Just because there is other variations in the game that need buffs doesnt mean fisticuffs doesnt.

Ismael is one of if not the only high level fisticuffs player, so its completely okay for him to point out the variation is total garbage on a forum for discussing mkx.

Just because there is other issues in the game and his other variations are good doesnt nullify the fact fisticuffs is near variationless. Everything he does his other variations do better.