General/Other - Fisticuffs One year of Speedbag: The future of Fisticuffs Cage

[ismael4790]

Just because a character has a 1 frame gap to escape doesn't make it 'no problem'.
You have a character that has one mid tier variation and two potentially top five variations... Asking for buffs is a slap in the face to characters that barely have one viable variation.

For me, variations are different characters. I don't care if A-List is good. It only shares a name with Fisticuffs, that doesn't justify he is ok being bad.

Where's that 1 frame? I suggest 9 startup, -3 on block for odd hits and -1 for even ones.
If Cage staggers the string, the next 9 frame attack would hit 12 or 10 frames after, assuming it is done perfectly every time. There are few things to fear in that window to be scared of poking out.
You can try to focus your poke attempts on odd hits, that's the best way to get out. Or take advantage of the gap the string has after every two hits.

 

[honeybooboo]

Noob question here but what was vanilla fisticuffs playstyle/gameplan?

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Perfect.

 

[ismael4790]

Noob question here but what was vanilla fisticuffs playstyle/gameplan?

Pressure with stagger strings, chip oriented, with some remarkable zoning.

 

[Espio]

Fisticuffs is in no way shape or form a bottom five variation. The main reason why people don't use it much is because A-list and Stunt Double exist. Even if it is his worst, it is still probably sitting comfortably at middle of the road.

Fist bump is actually really good. The fist bump is NOT just a buff on fist based attacks. If you go into practice mode, you can see that his forward 3, 4 (godlike ranged mid that is safe) gets DOUBLE the chip damage. This same goes for his forward 2,4 INCLUDING hits that do not involve his fists. His down 4 does double chip as well. You get almost 20% for a throw(17%) and let's be real, this is awesome considering throw tech is a guess in and of itself /nobody is teching every time unless you telegraph your throws a lot. Johnny has pretty legit stagger pressure across variations. The 1,1, staggers as well as 2,1, 4 can be used in concert with speedbag pressure, throws, down pokes (he has a pretty good down 3 now too).

4% chip with fist bump active on your force balls (which even without fist bump active do 2% chip and have a good arc for catching opponents). If the buff is active against most of the cast you can force them to come to you since the chip damage stacks up very quickly and that's a pretty huge deal in and itself.

Speedbag, while not as great as it used to be obviously should be used very strategically since people are familiar with the gap, you can bait reversals and since it's only slightly negative on block you can block any reversal in the game no matter how quick. Many characters have unsafe armored reversals like Kitana, Sub-Zero, Tanya, etc. Even characters with safe wake ups you can still reverse pressure on them after.


Johnny's universal tools make him good enough to not be bottom five (I didn't even touch on his nutpuch reset at all), but his fisticuffs tools are fine and work reasonably well in concert with his core kit. The bottom five downplaying needs to stop.

If Goro wasn't in the game, this would be my main character. His gameplan is simple, effective and fun. I don't see how he cannot compete. I still use him from time to time for the above mentioned reasons.


If Fisticuffs is a bottom five variation, this game is insanely balanced. I don't think Cutthroat should be the standard we're trying to get everyone at overall.

By the way, Kitana has a six frame poke now so she can be moved up on that list.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but fist bump buffs more than speedbag. I know it changes his throw to a more damaging one, and I believe it gives his flip kick and maybe one other move a slight increase in damage.

It buffs the chip on his down 4, forward 3,4 (great mid, safe), force balls (4% chip and the start up is pretty decent with a nice arc).

The chip on normals that are NOT just for fist related attacks.

 

[The Highlander]

For me, variations are different characters. I don't care if A-List is good. It only shares a name with Fisticuffs, that doesn't justify he is ok being bad.

Where's that 1 frame? I suggest 9 startup, -3 on block for odd hits and -1 for even ones.
If Cage staggers the string, the next 9 frame attack would hit 12 or 10 frames after, assuming it is done perfectly every time. There are few things to fear in that window to be scared of poking out.
You can try to focus your poke attempts on odd hits, that's the best way to get out. Or take advantage of the gap the string has after every two hits.

9f start up and at minus 1 you can hit again on the 10f frame, or even go for a faster poke. Tremors fastest poke is 9f, he has one frame to try and poke out...

Noob question here but what was vanilla fisticuffs playstyle/gameplan?

Watch this, it was insane. -

 

[ismael4790]

Fisticuffs is in no way shape or form a bottom five variation. The main reason why people don't use it much is because A-list and Stunt Double exist. Even if it is his worst, it is still probably sitting comfortably at middle of the road.

Fist bump is actually really good. The fist bump is NOT just a buff on fist based attacks. If you go into practice mode, you can see that his forward 3, 4 (godlike ranged mid that is safe) gets DOUBLE the chip damage. This same goes for his forward 2,4 INCLUDING hits that do not involve his fists. His down 4 does double chip as well. You get almost 20% for a throw(17%) and let's be real, this is awesome considering throw tech is a guess in and of itself /nobody is teching every time unless you telegraph your throws a lot. Johnny has pretty legit stagger pressure across variations. The 1,1, staggers as well as 2,1, 4 can be used in concert with speedbag pressure, throws, down pokes (he has a pretty good down 3 now too).

4% chip with fist bump active on your force balls (which even without fist bump active do 2% chip and have a good arc for catching opponents). If the buff is active against most of the cast you can force them to come to you since the chip damage stacks up very quickly and that's a pretty huge deal in and itself.

Speedbag, while not as great as it used to be obviously should be used very strategically since people are familiar with the gap, you can bait reversals and since it's only slightly negative on block you can block any reversal in the game no matter how quick. Many characters have unsafe armored reversals like Kitana, Sub-Zero, Tanya, etc. Even characters with safe wake ups you can still reverse pressure on them after.


Johnny's universal tools make him good enough to not be bottom five (I didn't even touch on his nutpuch reset at all), but his fisticuffs tools are fine and work reasonably well in concert with his core kit. The bottom five downplaying needs to stop.

If Goro wasn't in the game, this would be my main character. His gameplan is simple, effective and fun. I don't see how he cannot compete. I still use him from time to time for the above mentioned reasons.


If Fisticuffs is a bottom five variation, this game is insanely balanced. I don't think Cutthroat should be the standard we're trying to get everyone at overall.

By the way, Kitana has a six frame poke now so she can be moved up on that list.




It buffs the chip on his down 4, forward 3,4 (great mid, safe), force balls (4% chip and the start up is pretty decent with a nice arc).

The chip on normals that are NOT just for fist related attacks.

I was refering to the regular damage, not chip. In terms of damage, only Speedbag attacks are boosted, whereas Flame Fist gets damage+chip increase on everything involving his fists and projectiles.

Also the general chip reduction in the game hurted him more than others because he relied a lot on chip. The only thing that gets more chip now compared with pre march patch are speedbag hits.
The d4 nerf probably hurted this variation more than the other two. Also the b2 nerf was completely unnecesary for him. And while the thorw buff is great, again, a buff comes with a nerf, now tech window is much more generous.

About the universal tools, for example, this variation makes the worst use by far of f3 and 113 string. I mean, by far. This increases his problems to open up people. And it could be solved with the first point I mentioned in the op. And by the way, it's fun like everybody just ignore speedbag random whiffing issues as if they didn't care... People gets free pokes when they happen so his "pressure" is not only simple, it also has holes. Holes you can't prepare for as a player since you don't know when they are going to show up. Speedbag is the signature move of the variation, I think at least it should work better.

I agree with his gameplan being simple and fun. But for everyone that thinks he can be truly effective in competitive environments where people actually know the matchup, and like to use the word downplay, I would like some proof, instead of on paper theorisations when they probably have not even spent a month experiencing the struggle of using the character in every matchup. I want to believe, but...

Thanks for the Kitana correction.

9f start up and at minus 1 you can hit again on the 10f frame, or even go for a faster poke. Tremors fastest poke is 9f, he has one frame to try and poke out...

Watch this, it was insane. -

That's why I said the last 5 characters in that list should get a better poke. Now Jason has a 6f poke and -2 on block and I know what happens with Tremor...nobody wants that.

 

[Nedyrc]

But there is a problem with Fisticuffs. Same problem gm sub has. A tiny buff and both will destroy most of the cast thanks to their insane corner potential. NRS needs to be very carefull when buffing them. I think thats why thay are not buffing fisticuffs, they dont know how they can balance him without making him stupidly overpowered
I disagree with bottom 5 tho. He is atleast high mid tier. I would play fisticuffs if a-list hadnt stole my hearth <3

 

[ismael4790]

But there is a problem with Fisticuffs. Same problem gm sub has. A tiny buff and both will destroy most of the cast thanks to their insane corner potential. NRS needs to be very carefull when buffing them. I think thats why thay are not buffing fisticuffs, they dont know how they can balance him without making him stupidly overpowered
I disagree with bottom 5 tho. He is atleast high mid tier. I would play fisticuffs if a-list hadnt stole my hearth <3

I totally agree with that, NRS probably just don't know what to do with him. It's a very difficult variation to balance, since few frames can make an outstanding difference. But if they have no intention to touch speedbag frames, at least the string should function properly and not have these annoying whiffing problems.
Also, I will never understand if they finally decide not to give BF1 an ex version.

I don't know, some of you seem to be optimistic about his tier placement placing him as mid or even better. Imo he's very far from that. Winning with him means either that the opponent is not very knowledgeable of the matchup and has too much respect, or that you just outplayed him.
Maybe someone will appear and get a good place with him at a tournament but honestly, I doubt it a lot.

 

[GAV]

 

[GAV]

 

[Wigy]

Not read the other comments but the issue is with fisticuffs for me is.

The entire variation is based on b12 its only real use is that it brakes slow armour without any timing requirement really.

The chip buff is good but jcs zoning you can easily get around, so its a bit irrelevant for that, that he gets about 44% meterless from it and the grab is useful. But really, with the endless tools some variations get, its just not worth it. Hes giving up top 3 pressure in the game, psuedo unblockables and crazy damage.

If fist bump gave him more damage on every punch string, that would be a start.

If b12 came out in 9 frames being -2 that means most characters have 3-5 frames to poke and an armour gap.

An ex fistbump which had less recovery frames. Enough frames that it could be + 1 or 2 on s4 (only followup after this would be f34)

This is a bit random, but maybe change the 214 string with fistbump up which could give it some unique utility.

TL/DR they need to give him something better to fistbump and speedbag string frame wise for it to be justified as a variation.

This or, adding in some new tools like ex bump or new properties on normals with fistbump up.

While we're at it can we made 12(1) a mid lol (irrelevant jc fix request)

 

[ismael4790]

Not read the other comments but the issue is with fisticuffs for me is.

The entire variation is based on b12 its only real use is that it brakes slow armour without any timing requirement really.

The chip buff is good but jcs zoning you can easily get around, so its a bit irrelevant for that, that he gets about 44% meterless from it and the grab is useful. But really, with the endless tools some variations get, its just not worth it. Hes giving up top 3 pressure in the game, psuedo unblockables and crazy damage.

If fist bump gave him more damage on every punch string, that would be a start.

If b12 came out in 9 frames being -2 that means most characters have 3-5 frames to poke and an armour gap.

An ex fistbump which had less recovery frames. Enough frames that it could be + 1 or 2 on s4 (only followup after this would be f34)

This is a bit random, but maybe change the 214 string with fistbump up which could give it some unique utility.

TL/DR they need to give him something better to fistbump and speedbag string frame wise for it to be justified as a variation.

This or, adding in some new tools like ex bump or new properties on normals with fistbump up.

While we're at it can we made 12(1) a mid lol (irrelevant jc fix request)

A speedbag with 9 frame startup and -2 on block would be nice, yes. I suggested -3 and -1 to keep the original spirit of different frames for even and odd hits, but if you chosse the middle point, -2, it would be decent too.

Ex fistbump in my opinion would be one of the most important changes, yes.

Good idea with the 214. About the new properties in normals with fistbump up...imagine, for example, if speedbag was +1 on block while exfistbump is up, or something like that. It would be really interesting, would give a period of time while Fisticuffs would actually have scary pressure.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Wouldn't speedbag be really broken if it was +1 on block with fistbump? Won't you be able to pseudo-infinite the opponent to death in the corner? Especially with the speedbag chip with fist bump.

 

[ismael4790]

Wouldn't speedbag be really broken if it was +1 on block with fistbump? Won't you be able to pseudo-infinite the opponent to death in the corner? Especially with the speedbag chip with fist bump.

Well, +1, or 0 on block for example, just wondering. Spending a bar with exfistbump (and even half stamina) while you are close to gain a temporary enchanced pressure would be cool. Probably exfistbump effects should last shorter than the regular one.

Anyway, was just imaginating there

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

In order to counterpoke B12121212, first you have to react/make read when Cage is gonna stop the loop, then you must press button on the right frame. Why does everyone describe Fisticuffs like after B12 everyone with 6f poke can EASILY poke out of it.

 

[M.D.]

You can spam armor and if you continue after B12 you die.

The only mandatory buff is no gap until after the entire string (9 hits I think).

 

[ismael4790]

In order to counterpoke B12121212, first you have to react/make read when Cage is gonna stop the loop, then you must press button on the right frame. Why does everyone describe Fistycuffs like after B12 everyone with 6f poke can EASILY poke out of it.

I can tell you that someone that knows the matchup (and consequently knows the frames) is going to be able to poke out from a speedbag stagger extremely consistently with a 6f d1, consistently with a 7 one, and ok with an 8 one.

I have training partners that play me almost daily. They have good knowledge of the matchup now and they rarely get caught by any speedbag stagger.

You can spam armor and if you continue after B12 you die.

The only mandatory buff is no gap until after the entire string (9 hits I think).

The gap after every two hits is really annoying, yes. The full string on hit are 8 hits, on block the maximum are 6, but you know...the random whiffing problems can make it end even at 4 xD

There is a curious way to use that gap at your advantage though. Very situational and character dependant. I should post about it some day.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

You can spam armor and if you continue after B12 you die.

The only mandatory buff is no gap until after the entire string (9 hits I think).

Then block and bait armors. Noone has infinite meter, many characters don't have safe armors. Johnny players keep comparing Fisticuffs to Flamefist, do you know after Liu does Windmill punch everything he cancel into has a gap? if he does WP into dragon roar (the safest option, -2 on block) the gap is so big that you can use your normal to full combo punish it

 

[ismael4790]

Then block and bait armors. Noone has infinite meter, many characters don't have safe armors. Johnny players keep comparing Fisticuffs to Flamefist, do you know after Liu does Windmill punch everything he cancel into has a gap? if he does WP into dragon roar (the safest option, -2 on block) the gap is so big that you can use your normal to full combo punish it

I compare Fisticuffs with Flame Fist specially because of the bump. FF makes much better use of it, it can be integrated in combos to extend them and continue pressuring/chipping, and the frames after doing a string canceled into it are way better than the ones Cage gets. It also increases damage of every punch attack and projectile, unlike cage where only regular damage increase comes from speedbag (and this is only since march, before it only added chip).

The gap is annoying in fisticuffs because you have to be scared of doing more than 2 reps of the string. Anyway, if they don't remove it it's ok, that's not the greatest problem the variation has. Also the gap has a nice use, I would prefer if it stayed xD

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

I compare Fisticuffs with Flame Fist specially because of the bump. FF makes much better use of it, it can be integrated in combos to extend them and continue pressuring/chipping, and the frames after doing a string canceled into it are way better than the ones Cage gets. It also increases damage of every punch attack and projectile, unlike cage where only regular damage increase comes from speedbag (and this is only since march, before it only added chip).

The gap is annoying in fisticuffs because you have to be scared of doing more than 2 reps of the string. Anyway, if they don't remove it it's ok, that's not the greatest problem the variation has. Also the gap has a nice use, I would prefer if it stayed xD

I actually agree make his BF1 have better recovery, or at least give him more advantage on some hard knockdown to allow him activate BF1 more frequently. Assasin's regular sharpen has 54f recovery but she actually has her setup to activate it safer without sacrificing too much damage in a combo. The frame data of B121212 doesn't need to change, or we're gonna have something worse than prepatch Kobu Jutsu. The whiffing issue and inconsistency of B12 is more like a technical problem of the game itself, I don't think NRS can do anything to fix it without fucking up everything

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Cage Fisticuffs was my first main at the game release before I go to A-List, I'd like to see the full potential of Fisticuffs before the game stops being patched.

Best brutality in the game !

 

[honeybooboo]

Watch this, it was insane. -

after watching this again. I noticed how calculated every move was, by both players. Didnt understand the lao switch but man thats some high level play there. "#The caltrops!"

 

[ismael4790]

I actually agree make his BF1 have better recovery, or at least give him more advantage on some hard knockdown to allow him activate BF1 more frequently. Assasin's regular sharpen has 54f recovery but she actually has her setup to activate it safer without sacrificing too much damage in a combo. The frame data of B121212 doesn't need to change, or we're gonna have something worse than prepatch Kobu Jutsu. The whiffing issue and inconsistency of B12 is more like a technical problem of the game itself, I don't think NRS can do anything to fix it without fucking up everything

There is space between current speedbag frames and kobujutsu situation. Fistucuffs could get some help here and not be broken, don't panic xD Things have changed a lot since last year. People didn't have much time to learn that matchup and he was a bit overestimated back then. But anyway, not even asking for prepatch frames, just 9 startup and -2 on block -or a middle point, -3 and -1 to differentiate odd hits from even ones- would be fair. I think the first option is better, since people should not be worried about a different timing for even and odd hits. I liked that from the original design, but anyway...

Cage had other whiffing problems related to his normals that have been fixed through this year.
Speedbag whiffing is a problem of the string, not of the game, I'm sure they can fix it. Colt knows the problem. If they have not fixed yet it's probably because not many people play the variation, which is sad, because this problem hurts him A LOT.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Fisticuffs needs to have something that doesn't already exist in the game, like a free HTB and the ability to be +15 off of everything.
O wait..