NRS working conditions - This NEEDS to be discussed

[TackyHaddock]

You can love NRS and their games and provide constructive criticism of this sort of thing at the same time. Pushback from the fans will help encourage them to improve this.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Agreed. Last I heard Jason from Kotaku was investigating this. He’s a very good investigative journalist, so he’ll get to the bottom of it and confirm or deny the allegations soon.

so this is good then ..... sooner or later, the real truth will emerge to the surface of this so call polemic crackdown .... let's wait for

 

[Charybdis]

The sheer volume of bootlickers in this thread is disgusting. Particularly considering some of them are very quick to scream for solidarity when the stories about their people struggling are released or who are so quick to trumpet their struggles because of XYZ.

Support workers. Believe workers. Always and forever. Some of you people grew up far from working class and it shows like a motherfucker.

NRS arent getting a single cent from me until this is fixed. Thank god for preowned copies

 

[MalevolentFix]

The sheer volume of bootlickers in this thread is disgusting. Particularly considering some of them are very quick to scream for solidarity when the stories about their people struggling are released or who are so quick to trumpet their struggles because of XYZ.

Support workers. Believe workers. Always and forever. Some of you people grew up far from working class and it shows like a motherfucker.

NRS arent getting a single cent from me until this is fixed. Thank god for preowned copies

That's a legitimate fighter ladies and gents. That's what it takes to make a difference lol I ordered digitally so I'm part of the problem, but I'm at least adult enough to own up to it.

 

[Marinjuana]

Personally I don't view this as shocking or unusual compared to other industries. At least with what this one cat is describing. Ever work in the printing industry? Temps and contractors being lesser employes? Crunch time to meet deadlines is stressful? Welcome to the real world.

But I guess the big difference is that a lot of these employes have skills that could be making them better money in another, "less fun" industry. The supply of quality workers is seemingly very large compared to a smaller demand for labor. Why pay someone 20 per hour when a fresh college grad with 80% of the same skill will literally do it for 12 an hour? How many people here would take a job at NRS for 12 an hour? If I lived in Chicago, my ass would have been trying to get in there for years.

Take note folks, you don't get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. But hopefully these types of talk can help workers negotiate for better pay/stuff across the industry as you often hear horror stories.

All said, this guy said in no un-certain terms that Miguel Parts died at his desk from overwork during Injustice 2 crunch, saying he believed he would be alive today otherwise. He said he wasn't there for it though, he said he left during MKX. He since deleted that tweet which makes me question how reasonable the guy is. How do you make such a horrible claim and then be like "nah, nvm, forget I said anything".

 

[Juggs]

Not enough solid evidence here. I don’t believe stories from people I do not know making accusations without evidence to support their claims. Asking for more information and evidence isn’t “defending big companies/corporations”, it’s being logical and rational and not just believing everything you read.

 

[portent]

Take note folks, you don't"t get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. But hopefully these types of talk can help workers negotiate for better pay/stuff across the industry as you often hear horror stories.

One of the best things said in this thread so far, both points actually.

 

[portent]

Not enough solid evidence here. I don’t believe stories from people I do not know making accusations without evidence to support their claims. Asking for more information and evidence isn’t “defending big companies/corporations”, it’s being logical and rational and not just believing everything you read.

That's why I said earlier that you can't just jump off the bridge. You have to take the info and process it and understand that there are 2 more sides to the story.

 

[Ilthuain]

They can’t sue, these terms will be covered in their contracts. There isn’t anything illegal about it, just immoral practices.

Proof would require them most likely breaking their NDA. Breaking an NDA will blacklist them from ever working in the industry again and could result in a lawsuit against them.

So yeah, you have to take people for their word at times like these. It’s odd some choose to defend a corporation first over somebody being overworked. Modern society eh.

This line of conversation needs a reality check.

First, you can sue. You can always sue. You might not -win-, but you can sue.

Second, you can't NDA-away a hostile work environment. That's just not how NDAs function. There's also no 'blacklist' in the games industry. I've worked with people who speak very freely about shitty conditions at other companies.

I haven't worked at NRS, so I can't say if the work environment is super-crappy. It might be! What I do know is some of these claims are outrageous and shouldn't be accepted without additional evidence. A man dying at his desk due to overwork, explicit exclusion of female employees (exclusions are real but are normally a bit more covert), minimum wage developers... it's just so over-the-top and divorced from the real (and potentially very crappy for other reasons) world of gamedev.

 

[SHAOLIN]

why does test your might, a forum site based on the discussion of mk need to discuss the work policies of the nrs company? it's none of your business. what are you going to do?

I, myself believe different. We as consumers should be vocal in this matters, because no matter how good the product comes to us; it shouldn't be at the expense of worker's mental and physical health.

We need to expose this to the world and let it be known we don't condone nor support this type of treatment to its workers because you know, they are human beings after all, supporting there family and such.

 

[Marlow]

First, you can sue. You can always sue. You might not -win-, but you can sue.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. A lot of workplaces have mandatory arbitration clauses in the employment agreement which force an employee to settle disagreements through individualized arbitration, instead of the court system. These arbitration settings typically heavily favor the employer over the employee.

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[portent]

I, myself believe different. We as consumers should be vocal in this matters, because no matter how good the product comes to us; it shouldn't be at the expense of worker's mental and physical health.

We need to expose this to the world and let it be known we don't condone nor support this type of treatment to its workers because you know, they are human beings after all, supporting there family and such.

Agreed, however we also cannot crucify NRS (or any other employer, for that matter) without first giving them the opportunity to respond, and then deciding for ourselves what the truth really is.

Someone said this earlier, that choosing to boycott actually only further hurts the "small guy" because if the dev studio goes under, that's more jobs lost. Boycotting isn't the answer; asking the right questions, asking how (as a consumer) you can help ensure that employees get fair compensation for their work, and learning what fair workplace treatment is as well as helping to enforce it instead of ignoring it.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The sheer volume of bootlickers in this thread is disgusting. Particularly considering some of them are very quick to scream for solidarity when the stories about their people struggling are released or who are so quick to trumpet their struggles because of XYZ.

Support workers. Believe workers. Always and forever. Some of you people grew up far from working class and it shows like a motherfucker.

NRS arent getting a single cent from me until this is fixed. Thank god for preowned copies

Saying it's true or false is one thing. Saying you want to get all the available information and make your own decision rather than sending people to the gallows based on random tweets is another.

The people who have the biggest bone to pick are always the most outspoken, so that's why it's always worth digging in deeper to find the full truth.

But no one should be chastised for keeping an open mind until they know more.

I can say "A couple people told me @Chaybdis is a horrible person and was stuck up at events" or whatever, but I'm not going to immediately co-opt someone else's narrative about you without getting the whole story first. And just like all these other companies, the truth with come out in the end.

 

[ItsYaBoi]

This line of conversation needs a reality check.

First, you can sue. You can always sue. You might not -win-, but you can sue.

Second, you can't NDA-away a hostile work environment. That's just not how NDAs function. There's also no 'blacklist' in the games industry. I've worked with people who speak very freely about shitty conditions at other companies.

I haven't worked at NRS, so I can't say if the work environment is super-crappy. It might be! What I do know is some of these claims are outrageous and shouldn't be accepted without additional evidence. A man dying at his desk due to overwork, explicit exclusion of female employees (exclusions are real but are normally a bit more covert), minimum wage developers... it's just so over-the-top and divorced from the real (and potentially very crappy for other reasons) world of gamedev.

I can tell you for a fact you’re wrong, I’m in the industry and have worked at a AAA company. The hours and overtime WILL be written in the contract. Anything else needs a lot of proof to investigators. They can’t share that proof online as one, it could fall under slander unless proven, and two, the proof will most likely be considered a breach of NDA if it is internal chats, emails etc.

You in the industry out of curiosity?

Edit: you also don’t seem to realise I’m on your side here. And good luck thinking that if anybody broke an NDA they’d likely get an industry job again that wasn’t independent....

 

[Ilthuain]

I can tell you for a fact you’re wrong, I’m in the industry and have worked at a AAA company. The hours and overtime WILL be written in the contract. Anything else needs a lot of proof to investigators. They can’t share that proof online as one, it could fall under slander unless proven, and two, the proof will most likely be considered a breach of NDA if it is internal chats, emails etc.

You in the industry?

Yup. I'll tell you more in PM.

I didn't say that overtime isn't in your contract. It's in mine, and it always has been.

As far as needing a lot of proof, I didn't say that you wouldn't, so I'm not sure where you're upset about there.

I also didn't say that someone should share this stuff online... I said that the claims shouldn't be accepted without additional evidence. The additional evidence could be from litigation, journalists, whatever. One of the sources people are uncritically accepting claimed that a man died at his desk due to overwork during a project that he wasn't on (a claim later removed), so I don't think it's too improper to be skeptical.

Concerning the "you can always sue" thing, I was being a bit pedantic. In the case of mandatory arbitration clauses, you would obviously have your suit dismissed unless part of the argument was that the contract was invalid (which was part of the "you might not win" bit). My 'expertise' in this subject is a discussion about signing away your right to sue with my (ex) father-in-law who is an attorney, so I'm not exactly an extremely knowledgeable source.

EDIT!!:

You made some edits while I was slowly typing (and eating chili at my desk like a slob). I read your statement as more confrontational than was probably intended. If my statement above reads as confrontational I apologize.

 

[Marlow]

I'm no legal expert, but I do try and keep up with some of the worker's rights related issues. Don't know why, it's always just been something I feel passionately about.

Mainly what I was trying to point out was that while employees technically have a path to remedy these things, either by a lawsuit or arbitration, in practice it can be pretty hard. Especially in America, where the court system has really tended to lean heavily in favor of employers over employees in most recent cases. In fact there was a recent 5-4 SC decision this past week which just limited employees ability to file class action. Elections have consequences, I guess.

To tie this back to the thread, if people want better working conditions, part of that is finding ways to give workers better legal protection, so that if WB/NRS/Whoever creates a bad work environment, they get held liable for it.

 

[ItsYaBoi]

Yup. I'll tell you more in PM.

I didn't say that overtime isn't in your contract. It's in mine, and it always has been.

As far as needing a lot of proof, I didn't say that you wouldn't, so I'm not sure where you're upset about there.

I also didn't say that someone should share this stuff online... I said that the claims shouldn't be accepted without additional evidence. The additional evidence could be from litigation, journalists, whatever. One of the sources people are uncritically accepting claimed that a man died at his desk due to overwork during a project that he wasn't on (a claim later removed), so I don't think it's too improper to be skeptical.

Concerning the "you can always sue" thing, I was being a bit pedantic. In the case of mandatory arbitration clauses, you would obviously have your suit dismissed unless part of the argument was that the contract was invalid (which was part of the "you might not win" bit). My 'expertise' in this subject is a discussion about signing away your right to sue with my (ex) father-in-law who is an attorney, so I'm not exactly an extremely knowledgeable source.

EDIT!!:

You made some edits while I was slowly typing (and eating chili at my desk like a slob). I read your statement as more confrontational than was probably intended. If my statement above reads as confrontational I apologize.

No worries. My initial response was super confrontational, hence the edits. Apologies.

To be honest we seem to agree on a lot of things. I also agree that the claim about a man dying should not be accepted without proof, because that is a big fucking claim. That’s the kind of shit that needs a proper investigation.

Not sure if legalities in suing differ here, because I’m based in the UK and without sounding offensive to Murricans, they’re a pretty sue happy nation. But somebody else mentioned something which seems to be covering it in the US.

When I initially said blacklist I didn’t mean a literal list that gets sent around to not employ somebody, it was more of a figure of speech. If somebody breaks an NDA they’ll not be hired by an established company again. Least from people I’ve known and I mean, it’s kind of common sense as they’re a huge risk. Talking about work experiences at a AAA company - at least in my experience at a UK studio - can sometimes be a fine line of what you’re allowed to say. It’s overly strict, but you’re in the industry so you probably know all of this anyway.

 

[SHAOLIN]

Agreed, however we also cannot crucify NRS (or any other employer, for that matter) without first giving them the opportunity to respond, and then deciding for ourselves what the truth really is.

Someone said this earlier, that choosing to boycott actually only further hurts the "small guy" because if the dev studio goes under, that's more jobs lost. Boycotting isn't the answer; asking the right questions, asking how (as a consumer) you can help ensure that employees get fair compensation for their work, and learning what fair workplace treatment is as well as helping to enforce it instead of ignoring it.

I should have wrote what I wrote a little bit different lol
But I really don't condone boycotting because I know that in the end it might hurt those investors and those big guys in the company but the workers that we're trying to defend or support gets it the worst.

And if we, the consumers can find a way to support the workers at NRS anyway possible I say we go for it because I love NRS and do produce great content and does communicate with us more then I can say for other companies cough Bioware cough

And yes we do need to get the full story of what's really going on but I do have faith in Jason on getting to the bottom of this.

 

[MalevolentFix]

I should have wrote what I wrote a little bit different lol
But I really don't condone boycotting because I know that in the end it might hurt those investors and those big guys in the company but the workers that we're trying to defend or support gets it the worst.

And if we, the consumers can find a way to support the workers at NRS anyway possible I say we go for it because I love NRS and do produce great content and does communicate with us more then I can say for other companies cough Bioware cough

And yes we do need to get the full story of what's really going on but I do have faith in Jason on getting to the bottom of this.

Bioware is a really sad dark story isn't it?... God... Really think about it. Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights before it became an MMO, the first Mass Effect, KOTOR 1&2, Jade Empire, Dragon Age 1.... What HAPPENED Bioware?....

 

[kabelfritz]

this is terrible. i suffered under bad working conditions too and i really want nrs and wb to understand that id rather have my mk a year later than have people exploited for it!

 

[SHAOLIN]

Bioware is a really sad dark story isn't it?... God... Really think about it. Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights before it became an MMO, the first Mass Effect, KOTOR 1&2, Jade Empire, Dragon Age 1.... What HAPPENED Bioware?....

Jade Empire! You about to make me cry manly tears, that was The game!

 

[Marlow]

KOTOR 1&2...so great.

 

[MalevolentFix]

KOTOR 1&2...so great.

Now it's... Anthem... And their F2P MMO cash grab games for addicts and people who like staying poor.

 

[xWildx]

The best way to deal with it (from our standpoint of not really being able to do anything) is to keep the dialogue open. Do not sweep this under the rug.

They have to know that now we are aware, and that we are watching.

 

[NotBatman]

kind of sucks only 12 bucks an hour, i make 18.05 just walking around a amazon factory for a while...