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NORTHEAST CHAMPIONSHIP (NECXI) Dec 4th & 5th - PHILADELPHIA, PA - UMK3 & MKII

Tim Static

Adminerator
Lead Moderator
Its never been an issue, and is again, another thing that seperates MK from other fighters.

Like Shock mentioned, everytime it goes back to character select, it allows both players to choose new characters. As long as MK does this, the "winner stays with character" rule should never ever apply. Never has and it shouldnt start now. If MK9 is different, thats fine. But for games 15 years old plus, its ok.

BTW, counter picking is a strategy. Play to win or gtfo.
 

btbb99

Apprentice
i'm happy to realize now that stratagy should be used not only in the actually fight but in the character select screen as well, because i have a great one in mind:)
 

He Is Close

The Puppet Master
Im late but much props to Marvirrasta and Crazy Dominican. Marvirrasta is one on the ppl I believe I've never beaten at this game, nice homie.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
I just want to make it clear that between December 2001, and October 2010, this was never an issue. Before that, I don't know how tournaments in Chicago or anywhere else were run, but I'm fairly certain free select and random select were allowed.
 

Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
How about winner has to pick first, but can change their character... then you might see a lot of dancing cursors. lmao
 

Dark_Rob

Champion
Dreamcatcher said:
How about winner has to pick first, but can change their character... then you might see a lot of dancing cursors. lmao
I know you thought you were making a joke there, but actually thats a pretty damn good compromise. The winner still can change characters if he wants but the loser still gets his shot at counterpicking. Id be for this if everyone agreed. Its definitely a good meeting point between the two different viewpoints we have now.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Lead Moderator
this is just something that you cant and should never regulate.

this is one good reason the character select screens have timers. Well most of them do.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Lead Moderator
oh and btw, i will purposely choose certain characters to play certain characters, especially when i know that a person mains a certain character. Example, i've always used Sindel as a counter to Kung Lao. So again, its a strategy. it just only seems like the MK community makes a stink about it.
 

btbb99

Apprentice
first off ojauggernaut said that some street fighter tourneys have counter rules set in place so if that true then its not just mk that makes a stink about it, secondly im going to flip the script and pick certain characters to other guys certain character as opposed to guys picking certain characters to my certain characters, i will dance all over the character select screen if i have to and no matter who i fall on i will be very confident i will win since i no i can play the whole mk2 cast well, like i said before i really like that this counterpicking is accepted because i think it will give me more of an advantage:)
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
btbb99 said:
first off ojauggernaut said that some street fighter tourneys have counter rules set in place so if that true then its not just mk that makes a stink about it, secondly im going to flip the script and pick certain characters to other guys certain character as opposed to guys picking certain characters to my certain characters, i will dance all over the character select screen if i have to and no matter who i fall on i will be very confident i will win since i no i can play the whole mk2 cast well, like i said before i really like that this counterpicking is accepted because i think it will give me more of an advantage:)
I would go as far as to the say the overwhelming vast majority of SF tournaments have no repicks, but I think this only goes back to the fact that this was a default option for Capcom games before they got to consoles with vs mode. There is an option in Capcom menus on arcade games that allow you to reselect, but it requires the game going to Game Over after every match, but still only requires one credit. I think it might come down to a vote. I'll talk to Phil and some other players about it, and come up with perfectly worded options, and post it on ultimatemk. I have no personal preference but I'm willing to choose a compromise option.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Lead Moderator
btbb99 said:
first off ojauggernaut said that some street fighter tourneys have counter rules set in place so if that true then its not just mk that makes a stink about it, secondly im going to flip the script and pick certain characters to other guys certain character as opposed to guys picking certain characters to my certain characters, i will dance all over the character select screen if i have to and no matter who i fall on i will be very confident i will win since i no i can play the whole mk2 cast well, like i said before i really like that this counterpicking is accepted because i think it will give me more of an advantage:)
Go for it dude. But like Shock said, thats just how the Capcom games were made. Arcade era MK's didnt keep winner's character.

But i dont think this should ever change. its been that way for almost 2 decades, why change now? It seems as if only people who complain about it are the people who lose to counterpickers. (that wasnt directed at anyone in particular, fyi)
 

btbb99

Apprentice
Tim Static said:
Go for it dude. But like Shock said, thats just how the Capcom games were made. Arcade era MK's didnt keep winner's character.

But i dont think this should ever change. its been that way for almost 2 decades, why change now? It seems as if only people who complain about it are the people who lose to counterpickers. (that wasnt directed at anyone in particular, fyi)
i'm not saying it should be changed or it shouldn't, whatever you guys decide to do is 100% fine with me
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
It's definitely questionable and as a SF player myself I can completely understand if say, MK went on the stream and 3000 players saw Marv change his winning character at NEC, they would be like "Uh, why is he picking a different character?" but the explanation would have to be "Be prepared for anything within the game's default rules, to the line." Also, another thing I see more often than entire character switching, is Robot Smoke to Human Smoke switching. This is obviously a property inherent to Robot Smoke, and it'd be like saying it's ok to pick Sonya, play a round, then reset, switch to Reptile and keep the record of the first round of the match. Smoke happens to have no delay between changing and it doesn't affect the flow of the match, and it's just a part of the game. It'd almost be like saying "Morphs are banned" even though morphs are reverse limited compared to picking H Smoke, and having to stay as H Smoke. Now that we have a hacked version that makes him selectable, it might be pertinent to say "Picking Robot Smoke means staying as Robot Smoke, and Human Smoke is only selectable through his portrait." I'll address all of this one more time and see what everyone thinks with a vote. I will say that the poll should require at least 50 total votes and at least 25 people who have played in a UMK3 tournament for now.
 

summoning

Noncompliance to ASTM F 899-12 Standard
for MKII which we were talking about here, I counterpick when i know a clearly better player is playing me , its mkII... not much else you can do if im going to lose anyways might as well pick a character than I think I can do better with

let me just throw this out
I have been playing offline in tournaments since 1992, I never once ever heard anything at least in an MK game about character regulations , it has never been forced to stay with one character win or lose

What i can't believe that it was even mentioned in the first place , this was my reason to post in this thread
 

summoning

Noncompliance to ASTM F 899-12 Standard
btbb99 said:
i'm happy to realize now that stratagy should be used not only in the actually fight but in the character select screen as well, because i have a great one in mind:)
now all of a sudden you are ok with it? you are going to win anyways no matter what anyone does , again the main reason i posted on here is because of what you said about the counterpicks is all
 

btbb99

Apprentice
summoning said:
now all of a sudden you are ok with it? you are going to win anyways no matter what anyone does , again the main reason i posted on here is because of what you said about the counterpicks is all
i'm really trying my best to stay away from this thread but everytime i check it somebody says something that i have to reply to, i will say it one last time I AM NOT A FAN OF COUNTERPICKING, PERIOD. ITS NOT SOMETHING MYSELF OR MANY OTHER PLAYERS THAT PLAY MK2 LIKE EITHER, I AM NOT BY MYSELF ON THIS. i am really new to offline tournaments, the 2 i won were the only 2 i EVER PLAYED IN.. now, after i read alot of guys post on here saying that counterpicking was always in tournaments and it was never complained about nor should it be changed, i figured ok if thats the way they always were and nobody ever complained then I WON'T EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT COUNTERPICKING AGAIN, TRUST ME I WON'T... WHATEVER THE RULES ARE I AM FINE WITH.

@summoning, I AM SORRY I MENTIONED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, I AM JUST LEARNING ABOUT OFFLINE TOURNAMENTS..........
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
btbb you aren't the first person to talk about this though, is what I'm saying, but this year is the first time in all my 18 years of MK has it ever come up. Maybe the competition is finally where it needs to be.
 

summoning

Noncompliance to ASTM F 899-12 Standard
btbb99 said:
@summoning, I AM SORRY I MENTIONED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, I AM JUST LEARNING ABOUT OFFLINE TOURNAMENTS..........
i simply came into this thread when i saw what you said about the matches vs me , your the one who brought up all the other things , i never said i was better than you and now your all heated up , you play 1 game and you won 2 tournaments vs players that are no where near as good as you

ill take you on in mk1, umk , mk4 , ki , ssf4 and sf4 anytime you are ready :) and i wont counterpick in any of those games

mk2 you got me what can I say , ill try to pratice more for WB
 

btbb99

Apprentice
i feel great, you seem like the one thats all heated to me. did you read my last post? i apologized to you and you still come back firing at me. i never said i was better then you at mk1 umk3 ssf4 or even mk2 for that matter so i don't no where all that talk is coming from. you should relax man.
 

summoning

Noncompliance to ASTM F 899-12 Standard
well it was
btbb99 said:
i feel great, you seem like the one thats all heated to me. did you read my last post? i apologized to you and you still come back firing at me. i never said i was better then you at mk1 umk3 ssf4 or even mk2 for that matter so i don't no where all that talk is coming from. you should relax man.
well it was all in caps , do you not know what caps means , it means YELLING :)

all is well all is accepted
 

btbb99

Apprentice
well i didnt mean it like i was yelling, i put in in caps because i really wanted you to understand that i was sincerely apologizing. thats all. hey if you read this go in the chat because i want to ask you something
 

9.95

Champion
In all honesty, counterpicking has only become a real issue in the last 2 tournaments of 2010. I definitely see this as inherent to increased level of talent that attends each tournament. In the past, while we may have had 24 players, only a handful... maybe 10 of those players were actually good players who felt confident enough to use anyone in the tournament and it honestly made no difference if they used Sektor or Kabal against the "other" 14 players in a 24 man tournament.

Summer Jam was different in that it really had mostly good players with only like 2 "throw in" players that couldn't compete... and though the tournament only had like 14 or 16 players, the talent pool was that much greater.

NEC was a nightmare of a bracket... even the "average" player in that bracket was good enough that nobody could sleep on them. Counterpicking definitely happened in this tournament and I believe that it was a result of the increased talent because it was truly the first time that there were enough high level players that considered it and used it as a strategy.

This has been the biggest difference in tournaments past as opposed to 2010 Summer Jam and NEC, and I suspect it will continue at this point.

I have talked at great lengths with Shock regarding the repicks... and while my personal opinion is "I don't care" and "I prefer standard arcade rules", that doesn't necessarily mean it's fair. Shock and myself both agree that paying homage to the standard arcade rules is a good idea but that the best possible answer might be to allow repicks for the winner but he/she must announce the character to the loser so as to allow a counterpick.

In terms of the R.Smoke/H.Smoke, as Shock already knows, I'm completely against banning the change in between rounds because for the last 15 years, when someone picked R.Smoke, who you pick against him MUST factor in that he could change. Again, though, now that we have the Juggernauts hack, this could see change.... as Shock said, we will most likely make a poll about it on ultimatemk and put it to a vote by mostly tournament players and see how people feel about it. Keep in mind though, it definitely puts question on the Shang morphs... which is another thing Shock and I discussed and he stated on here.
 

OJuggernaut0

Apprentice
While I realize the rules have been the same for 15 years, that doesn't mean new rules shouldn't be considered. Rules like "no re-picks" are designed to prevent problems from occurring in the first place. Rules to prevent counterpicking never really were implemented before because it was never a problem. However, now it is a problem, and you can't just ignore it.

I know you guys have the firm belief that UMK3 or MK2 should have no rules, that you should play the game "as is". I agree, the gameplay itself should be played as is. But we're not talking about the gameplay necessarily, with the exception of the R.Smoke/H.Smoke problem. It doesn't matter how frequently a counterpicking problem occurs, it only needs to be a problem for one tournament. After that, changes need to be made in order to prevent it in the future. Of course not drastic changes, but changes non the less. You can ease into it as subtly as you like, but you cannot simply ignore it.

Something like a prevention of counterpicking is enforceable, discrete, and warranted. We don't have to adopt the same exact no re-pick rules as SSF4, we can do what Dreamcatcher mentioned, and go with winner can re-pick but has to pick first. This however, would need an extra rule added to it. Such as how long the winner can take to choose his character, since there is a time limit at the select screen.

Keep in mind, I am speaking from a non-bias view point. I use Human Smoke, a character that really has no solid counter. I use him and don't switch. So this rule wouldn't effect me hardly at all. Just wanted to point that out in case someone thought I am campaigning this because of someone counterpicking me. I don't even mind counterpicking at all, I even encourage it. I love beating a character I have disadvantages to.

Tim mentioned he likes to use certain characters against certain characters. Many people like to do this. So what happens when both people want to use a certain character depending on who the opponent chooses? You will see two players just waiting for the other to pick at the select screen. The rules we're trying to implement would allow both players a chance to do this, at least if they lose. If you win, you shouldn't mind the opponent getting a slight advantage by being able to counter your character. Tim also mentioned you couldn't regulate this, when in fact it would be fairly easy to. First match, both players tells one person who they're picking. This will prevent first match counterpicking. Then whoever loses, gets to pick second next match. Either by having winner no-repicks, or winner has to pick first. They have counterpicking rules in every other fighting game tournament, it's time for MK to follow suit!
 

Dark_Rob

Champion
Juggs makes alot of good points. I can see validity in both sides of the argument. I also think dreamcatchers suggestion is a good compromise for both sides. Winner can re pick but he has to pick first giving the loser a chance to counterpick.

How about we try this at Winter Brawl? We'll call it a test run and we can talk about it more after the tournament. Keep in mind none of this has to be set in stone, but we need to try it and see it implemented to see how it works.

EDIT: Also in regards to R.Smoke/H.Smoke and Shang Tsung morphs, I dont think any of this should apply to that. Were only talking about at the select screen, not in game play. Turning into H.Smoke is an in game decision. And Shang Tsungs morphs are a part of his gameplay. These are not things that should be regulated.