Noob Saibot General Discussion Thread

[Dante]

It has to hit very shallow (late) to be consistent. Messed with this a bit but I deemed it not worth it :/

 

[fr stack]

It has to hit very shallow (late) to be consistent. Messed with this a bit but I deemed it not worth it :/

Try a higher one but dont hit confirm just input like its a string im nearly sure i was hitting shoulder height ones last night . Hopefully on block it jails but i havent tested it yet

 

[xKMMx]

I've seen a ton of people that are having a super hard time against the "TOP 5".
I honestly have a pretty good record against all of them online cause most players tend to get really lazy with their more powerful tools and become somewhat predictable.
Ive yet to play a Geras that really makes me feel like he is the OP character everyone says he is.

Right now the match up that gives me the most trouble and gets me super salty is actually Jax.

I labbed him a little and basically in the end I fell like you just have to respect every thing he does. There are a really very few ways to punish him and that string with the overhead is safe for some reason.

He has that amazing fast mid string that is only two hits but is plus five and is special cancellable.

 

[Matix218]

So what advice do you guys have on how to approach characters that can punish b1 1+3 on block? Lots of b2 and try to keep distance for the most part?

 

[Nortnauq]

So what advice do you guys have on how to approach characters that can punish b1 1+3 on block? Lots of b2 and try to keep distance for the most part?

For the most part, if they start punishing the full B1 1+3 right away, (which everyone does by now) I usually start to back up and whiff B1 and then 1+3 hits them for a combo. (It has the most deceiving range I've ever seen. lol)
Other than that, if it doesn't work then yeah just play a bit slower with B2 and BF1.
Also, sometimes I'll just type B1 alone from range and see if they do anything. In rare instances they'll try to whiff punish thinking that 1+3 will follow and then I'll just throw out another B1 1+3 and the 1+3 will end up hitting them for a combo.

 

[Dante]

D4 F22 backdash b3 for days

 

[TheOnlySurvivor]

Does anyone else use hop as fake tele to bait people?

I will be now. edited for answer two posts up

 

[Hitoshura]

Mustard posted his view on character placements for MK11 2 days ago. It's his first month tier list and his predictions seems to be reasonable. He has Noob placed in A tier, but on the lower end and explains why. It seems like the issues he states for Noob are issues many people have with the character. Check it out and let me know what y'all think.

Mustard's Post-Combo Breaker Tier List

 

[Dante]

Mustard posted his view on character placements for MK11 2 days ago. It's his first month tier list and his predictions seems to be reasonable. He has Noob placed in A tier, but on the lower end and explains why. It seems like the issues he states for Noob are issues many people have with the character. Check it out and let me know what y'all think.

Mustard's Post-Combo Breaker Tier List

I agree with what he says but why do ppl think b11+3 is hitconfirmable.
To be clear I agree that he will get worse as ppl get good. Key points to this is punishing b11+3 and ducking ghostball on reaction.

 

[Hitoshura]

I agree with what he says but why do ppl think b11+3 is hitconfirmable.
To be clear I agree that he will get worse as ppl get good. Key points to this is punishing b11+3 and ducking ghostball on reaction.

That and the fact he has a tough time opening people up. Midscreen you get high damage by punishing whiffed moves and block strings with 1,1,3; however, as the game progresses people will be more careful pressuring their opponents, so 1,1,3 will be left as whiff punishing combo starter.

The other way to deal solid damage is with b1,1+3. You can predict if your opponent is trying to throw out an advancing string within sweep distance and try to land it. B1,1+3 is punishable by a solid amount of the cast, so our only mid hitting neutral tool isn't always practical.

Most of the time we will last f2,2,12/f2,2,1 x shadow tackle midscreen since it advances Noob forward to punish advancing opponent and it punishes moves and strings that keeps the opponent within a relatively safe distance. The problem is this string/combo will net you 16-18%. I'm starting to see that he is suffering a similar problem that he had in MK9 which is lack of consistent midscreen damage, his damage primarily comes from the corner and he has problems opening people up; however, he has become a much better character with the inclusion of corner carrying strings, better normals and an amplified teleslam that bounds the opponent.

Now the question is what will make Noob a better chatacter in the long run? Some of use, including myself, feel that shadow tackle may need to be improved. That speed needs to be increased a bit and that it should not dissapear when Noob is hit. The fact that it can't trade is a problem.

I was thinking last night that maybe f4 needs to be special cancelable. He has a hard time opening up the opponent and when he wants to do this the most is in the corner. Giving him a low starting combo could help alleviate the problem. Ending a combo in a restand into ghostball lands use +5 frame of advantage and if the opponent doesn't watch their feet we can essentially get another combo going. If they're smart and block low then we can use our tools to condition the opponent to block high and attempt to mix them up again. My only concern is would giving Noob a low combo starter with the damage he has now prove to be too much of an improvement? Does his damage need to be reduced with a buff like this? What do you guys think?

 

[Dante]

Lows are essentially mids so i dont see a point in changing f4 instead of making b11+3 safer in some way.
This and improving his KBs are honestly all the changes he needs to be a true A tier.
Another cool change would be making either ghostball or low shadow kick (bf3 short range -7 move) a Noob special rather than variation specific so we can actually fit it in the future.

I actually found a cool use for tackle and thats throwing it out at footsies (like backdash into that). Its fast enough and has no hurtbox and isnt easy to jump out from. Safety is rarely an issue. Still not great with current KB condition.

 

[Hitoshura]

Lows are essentially mids so i dont see a point in changing f4 instead of making b11+3 safer in some way.
This and improving his KBs are honestly all the changes he needs to be a true A tier.
Another cool change would be making either ghostball or low shadow kick (bf3 short range -7 move) a Noob special rather than variation specific so we can actually fit it in the future.

I actually found a cool use for tackle and thats throwing it out at footsies (like backdash into that). Its fast enough and has no hurtbox and isnt easy to jump out from. Safety is rarely an issue. Still not great with current KB condition.

How would he be true A tier if he still will have problems opening people up? His B1,1+3 needs to be safer. That alone being as unsafe as it is gives him problems in the neutral game. Lows aren't essentially mids. They're lows. They have properties that mids don't have.

Do you mean throwing it out within sweep distance?

 

[M2Dave]

How would he be true A tier if he still will have problems opening people up?

He does not need to open people up in my opinion. He is supposed to be a "premier zoning character", according to NRS's own words. He should have better zoning tools, which means a much better tackle and an EX version of spirit ball. I say leave safe 9 frame mid strings and overhead starters for the rush down characters. I am certain that a safe b+1,1+3 and an overhead tackle would cause him to jump in the tier list yet would make him very boring to play in my humble opinion. I like the fact that b+1,1+3 has a risk and that a lot of his moves (i.e., b+2, f+4, throws, etc.) leave the opponent full screen away, which is fitting for a zoning character. With better zoning potential, practical krushing blows, and a couple of hitbox fixes, he would be a lot more fun to play, irrespective of his position on the tier list.

 

[Dante]

How would he be true A tier if he still will have problems opening people up? His B1,1+3 needs to be safer. That alone being as unsafe as it is gives him problems in the neutral game. Lows aren't essentially mids. They're lows. They have properties that mids don't have.

Do you mean throwing it out within sweep distance?

Since we don't have overheads I don't see how lows are different than mids. D4 is for all intents and purposes my safe mid button to check ppl.
Opening them up suggest we actually pressure them on block. To me it's not different from how thin ice does it at all with the major exception of their b31 vs our b11+3. I'm a strong believer on the absolute nessecity of such a string to play this game.

Think of tackle as a b3 with less hurtbox. Less rewards for sure but since it has infinite active frames it can collide with other moves/movement that much often. Give it a try if you will

 

[Hitoshura]

He does not need to open people up in my opinion. He is supposed to be a "premier zoning character", according to NRS's own words. He should have better zoning tools, which means a much better tackle and an EX version of spirit ball. I say leave safe 9 frame mid strings and overhead starters for the rush down characters. I am certain that a safe b+1,1+3 and an overhead tackle would cause him to jump in the tier list yet would make him very boring to play in my humble opinion. I like the fact that b+1,1+3 has a risk and that a lot of his moves (i.e., b+2, f+4, throws, etc.) leave the opponent full screen away, which is fitting for a zoning character. With better zoning potential, practical krushing blows, and a couple of hitbox fixes, he would be a lot more fun to play, irrespective of his position on the tier list.

With all due respect, and I do respect your opinion, M2Dave, NRS has made statements regarding how characters are suppose to play in the past, especially with MK11, and they're not what they say they are. It happens. Noob was designed to be a punishment character and that's what he is going to be. He has a zoning variation, but it's trash, so NRS needs to make improvements on Seeing Double if they want that variation to be viable.

Since most of us are playing Dark Sabbath we're playing a more punishment based character and there are things that he needs in order keep up with the meta. These are some suggestions I'd make to his character and not the Dark Sabbath variation, in my opinion:

• B1, 1+3 to be safer.

- This is one of his main neutral tools, so if this move is unsafe and characters can punish it, then the Noob has an immediate disadvantage in that specific matchup.

• A faster shadow tackle that can trade.

- This move can only be used in combos at the moment and fails as a zoning tool. It's too slow and can easily be read, and it disappears when Noob is hit.

• Some sort of way to open the opponent up.

- Noob's game plan is to get the opponent into the corner and bully them until they die while simultaneously punishing the opponent, whether on whiff or block. These punishments carry the opponent into the corner where we are left in the right position to bully them for their milk money. Problem is we can't open them up to land damage and we have to rely on empty jumping, back dash into b1, etc. It's gimmicky. Good players will see this coming and have their defense on point, so at that point we're left to abusing throw after a confirmed poke, or jailing 1,1,3 off of a successful d1.

I'm not sure if giving Noob the ability to open up the opponent with the damage he has would be too broken. That will have to be tested. If it does prove to be too broken, then he can take a damage nerf. I'd be fine with that trade off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For Seeing Double, I'd suggest this:

• Make Ghostball a core move for Noob Saibot and replace it with an amplified Shadow Upknee.

- I'm suggesting this because Seeing Double has no damage, not even in the corner. By adding an amplified upknee that sends the opponent up higher we can extend combos in the corner and land some solid damage, because right now his damage is in the 200's with this variation. Ghostball should just be a core move. It's a waste to have it as a added move. Spirit ball can act as a substitute move for Noob in his Dark Sabbath variation, much like other characters have moves in their variations that replace existing moves in their core moveset.

• Ghostball needs to be useful.

- The move depletes the opponent of 1 defense and 1 offensive bar; however, is too slow to connect into combos and too slow to use as a setup. It's a useless move that needs fixing. We should be able to combo into it off of b1,1+3. At least an amplified version of it.

• Shadow Slide should travel full screen. If not, then 3/4 screen.

- This move is utterly useless as a zoning tool. It travels half screen. It is fast, but who cares. You can't zone with it. Zoning midscreen is a dangerous area for zoning characters we have less security around there.

 

[Metzos]

I seem to struggle against Cassie, Sonya and Scorpion (who doesnt). Sonya and Cassie especially if they just decide to zone there isnt much NS can do about it. Just patiently walk in and even then against Cassie its still hard. Against Sonya, you have to be aware of the 50/50s.

 

[Saltea Mike]

I seem to struggle against Cassie, Sonya and Scorpion (who doesnt). Sonya and Cassie especially if they just decide to zone there isnt much NS can do about it. Just patiently walk in and even then against Cassie its still hard. Against Sonya, you have to be aware of the 50/50s.

Yeah you have to have a hard read to teleport their zoning. There's no punishing on reaction.

Cassie has much better up close tools and far away tools. This MU sucks. Same goes for Zonya - basically cassie + 50/50 and even more damage.

Scorpion... you just play his game. That's like that with every character, not only noob.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Lui Kang - D3 becomes invaluable to breaking up his staggers but I still suck at turning anything into a full combo against him
Jacqui - She's all up in my face non stop I usually get destroyed
Jax - same as Jacqui

I've found if I'm getting straight up worked for 4+ matches in a row my only consistently reliable tool is a throw and jump in kick.

 

[M2Dave]

With all due respect, and I do respect your opinion, M2Dave, NRS has made statements regarding how characters are suppose to play in the past, especially with MK11, and they're not what they say they are. It happens. Noob was designed to be a punishment character and that's what he is going to be. He has a zoning variation, but it's trash, so NRS needs to make improvements on Seeing Double if they want that variation to be viable.

Since most of us are playing Dark Sabbath we're playing a more punishment based character and there are things that he needs in order keep up with the meta. These are some suggestions I'd make to his character and not the Dark Sabbath variation, in my opinion:

• B1, 1+3 to be safer.

- This is one of his main neutral tools, so if this move is unsafe and characters can punish it, then the Noob has an immediate disadvantage in that specific matchup.

• A faster shadow tackle that can trade.

- This move can only be used in combos at the moment and fails as a zoning tool. It's too slow and can easily be read, and it disappears when Noob is hit.

• Some sort of way to open the opponent up.

- Noob's game plan is to get the opponent into the corner and bully them until they die while simultaneously punishing the opponent, whether on whiff or block. These punishments carry the opponent into the corner where we are left in the right position to bully them for their milk money. Problem is we can't open them up to land damage and we have to rely on empty jumping, back dash into b1, etc. It's gimmicky. Good players will see this coming and have their defense on point, so at that point we're left to abusing throw after a confirmed poke, or jailing 1,1,3 off of a successful d1.

I'm not sure if giving Noob the ability to open up the opponent with the damage he has would be too broken. That will have to be tested. If it does prove to be too broken, then he can take a damage nerf. I'd be fine with that trade off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For Seeing Double, I'd suggest this:

• Make Ghostball a core move for Noob Saibot and replace it with an amplified Shadow Upknee.

- I'm suggesting this because Seeing Double has no damage, not even in the corner. By adding an amplified upknee that sends the opponent up higher we can extend combos in the corner and land some solid damage, because right now his damage is in the 200's with this variation. Ghostball should just be a core move. It's a waste to have it as a added move. Spirit ball can act as a substitute move for Noob in his Dark Sabbath variation, much like other characters have moves in their variations that replace existing moves in their core moveset.

• Ghostball needs to be useful.

- The move depletes the opponent of 1 defense and 1 offensive bar; however, is too slow to connect into combos and too slow to use as a setup. It's a useless move that needs fixing. We should be able to combo into it off of b1,1+3. At least an amplified version of it.

• Shadow Slide should travel full screen. If not, then 3/4 screen.

- This move is utterly useless as a zoning tool. It travels half screen. It is fast, but who cares. You can't zone with it. Zoning midscreen is a dangerous area for zoning characters we have less security around there.

The vast majority of characters in this game open opponents up with throws, whether they be regular or command throws. I highly doubt NRS is giving a punishing character, or a zoning character, or however you want to label Noob, 50/50 mix ups or pressure that can be staggered. If Noob's zoning game were "premier", he would not need mix ups because he could chip the opponent full screen away, similar to a character like Cetrion.

In my opinion, speculation about buff serves no purpose as NRS will do what they will do. However, I think the whole Noob community can agree that the character needs hitbox fixes on wake up 3 and tackle, functional krushing blows on b+3,1+3 and tackle, and a couple of improvements on tackle. Everything else is debatable. He may need nothing else if you consider the inevitable nerfs to the top five characters.

Keep in mind that a safer b+1,1+3 will be safer in all variations. I also have no expectations for ghost ball. When has an unblockable move in fighting games not been either worthless or overpowered? The design ought to be discarded and overhauled.

 

[M2Dave]

I seem to struggle against Cassie, Sonya and Scorpion (who doesnt). Sonya and Cassie especially if they just decide to zone there isnt much NS can do about it. Just patiently walk in and even then against Cassie its still hard. Against Sonya, you have to be aware of the 50/50s.

Fighting characters who out-zone Noob such as Cassie, Cetrion, Jade, Geras, and Sonya may be more difficult than fighting characters who punish b+1,1+3 on block. I am aware that a couple of the aforementioned characters do both. Noob has no mix ups, no pressure that can be staggered, and no throws that give okizeme so the reward for closing the gap is poor. I think @Hitoshura is right when he states that Noob is going to become worse as the game develops. I also noticed that Chris G made the switch to Scorpion while Honey Bee has been using D'Vorah a lot more. Waz is exclusively using Jade now. As far as I know, only Toxin is left. LOL.

 

[Hitoshura]

The vast majority of characters in this game open opponents up with throws, whether they be regular or command throws. I highly doubt NRS is giving a punishing character, or a zoning character, or however you want to label Noob, 50/50 mix ups or pressure that can be staggered. If Noob's zoning game were "premier", he would not need mix ups because he could chip the opponent full screen away, similar to a character like Cetrion.

In my opinion, speculation about buff serves no purpose as NRS will do what they will do. However, I think the whole Noob community can agree that the character needs hitbox fixes on wake up 3 and tackle, functional krushing blows on b+3,1+3 and tackle, and a couple of improvements on tackle. Everything else is debatable. He may need nothing else if you consider the inevitable nerfs to the top five characters.

Keep in mind that a safer b+1,1+3 will be safer in all variations. I also have no expectations for ghost ball. When has an unblockable move in fighting games not been either worthless or overpowered? The design ought to be discarded and overhauled.

A valid point; however, I'd like to clarify that I wasn't insisting, nor suggesting that Noob be given 50/50 mixups. I just wanted f4 to be special cancelable as a way fo have another low move that leads into a combo. I don't want a 50/50 mixup character like Sonya. Although, @M2Dave , throwing isn't a reliable tactic unless you have a way to set up a throw loop, like Kung Lao. The best we have is a down poke into a throw, or down poke into f2/f22, then throw. Plenty of players online are wising up to this and duck the throw, then whiff punish or uppercut to get the krushing blow trigger.

 

[TheGlow]

Fighting characters who out-zone Noob such as Cassie, Cetrion, Jade, Geras, and Sonya may be more difficult than fighting characters who punish b+1,1+3 on block. I am aware that a couple of the aforementioned characters do both. Noob has no mix ups, no pressure that can be staggered, and no throws that give okizeme so the reward for closing the gap is poor. I think @Hitoshura is right when he states that Noob is going to become worse as the game develops. I also noticed that Chris G made the switch to Scorpion while Honey Bee has been using D'Vorah a lot more. Waz is exclusively using Jade now. As far as I know, only Toxin is left. LOL.

Yes noob is drying up. And Toxin has used Skarlet and Kabal numerous times now.

 

[Hitoshura]

I also noticed that Chris G made the switch to Scorpion while Honey Bee has been using D'Vorah a lot more. Waz is exclusively using Jade now. As far as I know, only Toxin is left. LOL.

Damn. Haha.

Fighting characters who out-zone Noob such as Cassie, Cetrion, Jade, Geras, and Sonya may be more difficult than fighting characters who punish b+1,1+3 on block. I am aware that a couple of the aforementioned characters do both. Noob has no mix ups, no pressure that can be staggered, and no throws that give okizeme so the reward for closing the gap is poor. I think @Hitoshura is right when he states that Noob is going to become worse as the game develops.

I will say that Centrion isn't that bad of a matchup. Noob can teleslam in between earthquakes hits, but the timing is odd. You inch in and need to be patient, but maybe I haven't fought any good Centrion's.

It seems a solid amount of characters give Noob some issues, but only slightly. I don't want to say he has any 3-7s because it's still early to tell; however, I will say I have the toughest time against Skarlet, Sonya, Jax, and Cassie.

 

[Metzos]

Fighting characters who out-zone Noob such as Cassie, Cetrion, Jade, Geras, and Sonya may be more difficult than fighting characters who punish b+1,1+3 on block. I am aware that a couple of the aforementioned characters do both. Noob has no mix ups, no pressure that can be staggered, and no throws that give okizeme so the reward for closing the gap is poor. I think @Hitoshura is right when he states that Noob is going to become worse as the game develops. I also noticed that Chris G made the switch to Scorpion while Honey Bee has been using D'Vorah a lot more. Waz is exclusively using Jade now. As far as I know, only Toxin is left. LOL.

Yeah i m starting to agree with you that NS might not be that good after all. His dmg output is awesome but he is like Ermac in mk9. He has to resort to whiff punishing, interrupts and punishes in general to get his dmg going.

 

[STB Bodam]

here ya go 8)

No offense, my man but unless we're talking offline, that is insanely droppable. Although, I suppose we're talking "optimal" here.

I like @Hitoshura's suggestion to make F4 special cancel. I don't think Noob needs a lot besides corrections to his hurtbox/hitbox, his Krushing Blows fixed a bit, and the properties of Shadow Tackle not being so garbage. I don't much care for Ghostball or really the Seeing Double variation as a whole, as plenty of characters have one terrible variation (I know... that's a lame thing to say but it's true.) I think @M2Dave hit it right on the head really when he said that Noob will essentially be "buffed" by the top-tier characters getting nerfed.