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New UMK3 Tier List? (update for 2012)

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Hi. kind of n00b in umk3. Why you Juggs put Ermac higher than before?

Also... why is Jade getting up? I understand he has some nice jabs, but is that enough?
73% punisher, 68% BnBs, 48% off a HK,LP-launcher, Teleport makes him virtually impossible to rushdown or corner, excellent jabs, best RH in the game - RH links into (up to) a 68% aaCombo, 100%+ in the corner from numerous set-ups.....the list goes on, man. I agree that Ermac should be #3 without question

His only real downfall is against characters like Sheeva and Shang that are difficult to juggle due to their abnormal fall-arch

If my Jade isn't enough to convince you, NoDoubt 's Jade will be plenty.
 

Mgo

Noob
Everyone have his list. Some of the best players of the world not follow this list.
Few examples, Chile players use H.Smoke,Nightwolf,Kabal,Ermac in his top 4. Marvirrasta and Crazy Dominican choose Nightwolf and Kitana over Kano, Kung Lao and Reptile. MKK hanzo too, i never see him choose Kung Lao for example.
Also, there are high level players who dont think Kabal is the best, 'cause is easy punish him with characters like Kitana or Reptile, instead Human Smoke seems better to be more safe and have great qualities.
 

Clayman

you don't get it, do you?
My opinion:
1) Classic Sub-Zero
2) Cyrax
3) Ermac
4) Human Smoke
5) Jade
6) Jax
7) Kabal
8) Kano
9) Kitana
10) Kung Lao
11) Liu Kang
12) Mileena
13) Nightwolf
14) Reptile
15) Robot Smoke
16) Scorpion
17) Sektor
18) Shang Tsung
19) Sheeva
20) Sindel
21) Sonya
22) Stryker
23) Unmasked Sub-Zero
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Where is that lex' umk3 compendium? btw
In the trash? Actually it's fused into the strategy guides on UltimateMK.com. A lot of useful stuff in there. A lot of valid points are brought up, but the problem with moving so many characters up, is that some inarguably top tier characters get moved down. There can only be so many "top 10" characters. IMO, an example of a character that is highly overrated by the handful, handful of players who use her, is Sheeva. That character does not have good matchups, she is good for a couple rounds against a competent player and she becomes useless as her patterns and tricks become easy to neutralize. I am not saying that Sheeva is the worst character to use in application, I'm saying that the only time she will be effective for more than 5 matches is in a lopsided skill set.

Here's the hybrid tier list that resulted from everyone putting in their 2 cents on UMK a while back:

2. Human Smoke
3. Kung Lao
4. Ermac +2
5. Reptile
6. Kano -2
7. Nightwolf
8. Robot Smoke
9. Sindel
10. Jax
11. Sonya
12. Kitana
13. Stryker
14. Scorpion
15. Unmasked Sub-zero
16. Jade
17. Liu Kang
18. Sektor
19. Classic Sub-zero
20. Mileena +2
21. Cyrax -1
22. Sheeva +1
23. Shang Tsung -2

And here is the match based tier list, also via group discussion which I think is the best tier list for the game thus far.

Kabal - 155
Human Smoke - 145
Ermac - 135
Kung Lao - 134
Nightwolf - 132
Kano - 128
Reptile - 127
Robot Smoke - 126
Kitana - 126
Sonya - 114
Jax - 113
Sindel - 111
Unmasked Sub-zero - 108
Scorpion - 107
Stryker - 100
Jade - 93
Liu Kang - 91
Sektor - 88
Mileena - 87
Classic Sub-zero - 80
Cyrax - 77
Sheeva - 77
Shang Tsung - 76

Here is the chart: http://ultimatemk.com/umk3mocktier.htm
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
In the trash? Actually it's fused into the strategy guides on UltimateMK.com. A lot of useful stuff in there. A lot of valid points are brought up, but the problem with moving so many characters up, is that some inarguably top tier characters get moved down. There can only be so many "top 10" characters. IMO, an example of a character that is highly overrated by the handful, handful of players who use her, is Sheeva. That character does not have good matchups, she is good for a couple rounds against a competent player and she becomes useless as her patterns and tricks become easy to neutralize. I am not saying that Sheeva is the worst character to use in application, I'm saying that the only time she will be effective for more than 5 matches is in a lopsided skill set.

Here is the match based tier list, also via group discussion which I think is the best tier list for the game thus far.

Kabal - 155
Human Smoke - 145
Ermac - 135
Kung Lao - 134
Nightwolf - 132
Kano - 128
Reptile - 127
Robot Smoke - 126
Kitana - 126
Sonya - 114
Jax - 113
Sindel - 111
Unmasked Sub-zero - 108
Scorpion - 107
Stryker - 100
Jade - 93
Liu Kang - 91
Sektor - 88
Mileena - 87
Classic Sub-zero - 80
Cyrax - 77
Sheeva - 77
Shang Tsung - 76

Here is the chart: http://ultimatemk.com/umk3mocktier.htm
It's hard to disagree that this chart is better than the other. I vote we use this to decide new placements for Kitana, Jade, Mileena, Kano, Jax, Sindel. I have an order in mind but I'd like to see more 1st. Kitana top 5, Jade maybe top 10 in the right hands. Mileena needs more work but I doubt is bottom tier or even low now w/ G/J and K/J. Put her the very next character after Jade then ask yourself why she beats the people I put her above.

I might main 3 bitches at NECXIII for UMK3. ;)
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
73% punisher, 68% BnBs, 48% off a HK,LP-launcher, Teleport makes him virtually impossible to rushdown or corner, excellent jabs, best RH in the game - RH links into (up to) a 68% aaCombo, 100%+ in the corner from numerous set-ups.....the list goes on, man. I agree that Ermac should be #3 without question

His only real downfall is against characters like Sheeva and Shang that are difficult to juggle due to their abnormal fall-arch

If my Jade isn't enough to convince you, NoDoubt 's Jade will be plenty.
Ermac has no downfall in damage dealing against Shang or Sheeva, there are very basic 60% combos off jump punish of naked TKS, and mid to high 40s off a knee lift, aside from the fact that he doesn't even need high damage combos to beat those characters. Also, how they fall isn't the problem, it's purely collision box vs push box. Shang and Sheeva have narrow collision, Shang's is also short, and at times, it's virtually impossible to hit two consecutive attacks because he gets too far away too fast. Sheeva has the tall collision box which results in a lot of blockable combos when she gets close to the ground. As from that, his combos don't make him hard to rush down, but you can put yourself in the corner and trap them with the teleport. The proper setup with result in 100% Ermac death combo every time because your opponent feels forced to escape.

Show me your Jade at NEC. I wanna see her.


Edit: The highest I could see Kitana go is above Kano in the match tier chart, but there'd have to be a redefining of her matchups. Everyone should take a look, point out matchup discrepancies that have changed her for the better over the last couple years and add her up. IMO, she will never make higher than 6th, which again, is a deserving spot for her.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Ermac has no downfall in damage dealing against Shang or Sheeva, there are very basic 60% combos off jump punish of naked TKS, and mid to high 40s off a knee lift, aside from the fact that he doesn't even need high damage combos to beat those characters. Also, how they fall isn't the problem, it's purely collision box vs push box. Shang and Sheeva have narrow collision, Shang's is also short, and at times, it's virtually impossible to hit two consecutive attacks because he gets too far away too fast. Sheeva has the tall collision box which results in a lot of blockable combos when she gets close to the ground. As from that, his combos don't make him hard to rush down, but you can put yourself in the corner and trap them with the teleport. The proper setup with result in 100% Ermac death combo every time because your opponent feels forced to escape.

Show me your Jade at NEC. I wanna see her.


Edit: The highest I could see Kitana go is above Kano in the match tier chart, but there'd have to be a redefining of her matchups. Everyone should take a look, point out matchup discrepancies that have changed her for the better over the last couple years and add her up. IMO, she will never make higher than 6th, which again, is a deserving spot for her.
Yea, you hit the nail on the head w/ backwards-trap into teleport--->combo, and I'll give you what I got w/ Jade, but im just part of a larger force, so don't forget NoDoubt Arion's if he can't make it to NECXIII, cuz mine is just an example of why she is so good. We still are similarly good, but the standard for her is already low so I naturally place high by default , despite his win-ratio and merely by knowing how to play her at all properly. Using a basis of skill gap between players It's based on relativity since we both have formidable Jade but he is still a good skill level above me in some aspects of the meta-game, specifically aspects that win more. Jade at the highest level - it's obvious where her ability stops.

Vs. alot of others I doubt it will matter, but at the highest level and your understanding of the characters, you're probably determining the opposing side to her's standard and showing us what to do when fighting the best Jades. It will no doubt be very useful nd helpful, but I doubt many players will be as advanced in strategy vs Jade as you. So does that count to change under-rated to just rated realistically ranked:p?
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Agree with some characters moving around.

uSub, Mileena, Jade, Kitana moving up due to their top tier jab game.

Kung Lao moving down... at high level, nobody jumps; and with kjs, nobody is going to be hit by that spin.

EDIT: As I am sure all of the top players know, uSub has a corner jab infinite if he freezes you on the ground. With some of the best rjs in the game and a corner infinite... how is he not top 10 at the least?
While Sub is one of my favorite characters, and you know that, he is just not quite a top 10 character. Think about what characters would have to step down for Sub. I have a character defining style with U-Sub based on the many different Sub's I've played, and the only way he could be top 10 is if he could freeze while the clone was on the screen.

Edit: Jade is a bottom half tier character, pretty decisively.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Edit: Jade is a bottom half tier character, pretty decisively.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......................................



You're just ripping my heart out Brother. :( You don't think Arion playing Jade could rival Arion playing Kitana? Look how their move sets counter each other and she can't be Zoned at all really. Jade is good, man....I put her at #12-#13 above U Sub, Stryker, Scorp and maybe more. She beats all them, man. How else could #13-#18 say she isn't as good as them? Jade and Mileena advance on the Chessboard from whatever Kitana benefits from KJ/GJ, right? No difference among girls. But it matters to the rest of the cast, I'm sure. Any female ninja's GJ/KJ is among the best in the game. I can't even justify placing her below top 15 with anything. Nearly un-zoneable; PI lasts full-screen making her rushdown rival NightWolf nearly, IMO.
 

ded

Elder God
This is what me and HRZ came up with:

1.Kabal
2.Human Smoke
3.Kung Lao (high level Lao looks like random jumps and div kicks but its actually one hell chaos if you are not Kabal against him, youtube "marcelo kung lao" although its mkt)
4.Reptile (this is my opinion for the character if used in the right hands)
5.Nightwolf (or 6 debatable with Ermac)
6.Ermac (or 5 debatable with Nightwolf)
7.Robot Smoke
8.Noob Saibot
9.Kano (very close to Noob)
10.Kitana
11.Sonya (very close to Kitana)
12.Jax (kbd)
13.Sindel
14.Stryker
15.Scorpion
16.Unmasked Sub-Zero
17.Liu Kang (whiffed Flying Kicks makes him impossible to karajab, kbd)
18.Classic Sub-Zero
19.Mileena
20.Jade
21.Cyrax
22.Shang Tsung
23.Sektor
24.Sheeva

This includes corner traps, otg patterns, placement, relaunchers, combos and etc...
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
It's in alphabetical order lol
LMAO
I would trade Human Smoke whit Kabal, Human Smoke is way better, in a pro's hands...
It's actually 5.5-4.5 in Kabal's favor, but there are a few things that alternate advantages....despite H. Smoke being a 2-mistake character, Kabal's Spin combined w/ KJ/GJ (best in the game) just proves too much for Smoke in most cases, but it truly can go either way. it's a very winnable match for Smoke and Teleport helps him tremendously in countering Kabal's overwhelming rushdown, but he will never have the advantage - Kabal will remain slightly ahead of him. We can say H. Smoke is the lone S-tier member, while Kabal is S+. Everyone under H. Smoke begins S- and/or A+ tier
 

REO

Undead
Nice lists so far. I agree with the placements in some of them. I'm not ready to get into a full roster discussion, I want to mainly talk about Kitana. I believe Kitana has been the most underrated character since the beginning of time. I'm not exactly sure why some of you feel she cannot be top five material, and I would like to know reasons as to why. I feel like I already discussed her key strengths so I'm not going to be writing a book about her (yet). But below I will create a short pros and cons list on what I believe stands out with her.

Kitana

Pros:
- arguable best jabs in the game
- arguable best throw in the game
- extremely safe character
- best projectile in the game
- small hitbox
- highly practical with corner jab infinite

Cons:
- somewhat vulnerable to cross-ups
- minimal damage on grounded opponents
- cannot perform relaunch infinites



Let me know what your opinions are.
 

ded

Elder God
good stuff. people seems to not listen me any more, but here is what i believe should be:

- best jabs in the game - kabal (its been discussed before)
- best throw in the game - its debatable between rsmoke (crossover/invert directions throws), sheeva (shock is right), kitana and kabal (into unblockable spin)
- the most safe character in the game is hsmoke
- best projectile in the game - reptile's forceball (fast), it is almost impossible to punish this, combine it with slow forceball and invis and you get the idea
- i dont think her hitbox is a plus against top 10 characters (from the list i posted)
- she is very dangerous in corner but so are almost every other character in the game

kitana has a limited game into karajabing, throw/knee mixups and low air fans which may work for a game or two, thats it. she is just too limited. i said that before: karajabs will take you nowhere...you have to do mixups including jumps, otgs, mind reading traps and etc.

again, this is my opinion, i dont insist people would agree with it, only the ones i play against ;)
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
- arguable best jabs in the game
Define best jabs, because obviously in terms of collision, Mileena and Jade have the same jabs, but you mean the best follow up pressure to jabs? IMO, Nightwolf or Kabal would have the best jab pressure in the game. Even H Smoke, Ermac, and Sindel have more dangerous jab pressure results, but my point is, her reach, collision, etc, would then just be considered "female ninja jabs are best" IE Male Ninja RH is one of the best.

- arguable best throw in the game
Throw damage vs frame advatange and the cross up? Because I'd say Cyrax's or Sheeva's is better. Again, this would have to be rolled up into the jab pressure biproduct, and not so much the throw itself.

- extremely safe character
fan lift, air wave and ground fan are not safe, in fact some of the most unsafe moves in the game. Based purely on normals, we really start splitting hairs. Air fan is good but it creates a very obvious pattern and avoided by sweeps like the plague, resulting in potential rush down follow up neutralizer. Even instant air fan, while extremely useful, becomes pattern based or predictable and will result more often in unwanted ground fans. You can even bait the instant air fan for example, wasting her one good attack for a few seconds.

- best projectile in the game
Again, I'd give the nod to Kabal because of spammability/2 on screen at once with lock down, air avoidance more often, positioning/ reverse/backward movement on crossing, baiting, and the fact that it can be used to set up nearly 60% damage combos, and extend corner combos far beyond Kitana's damage potential. While Kitana's fan is pure containment, the damage protection and time limit to me make it pretty average. However, I'm aware this just means there's less chance that she'd be above Kabal haha. In any event, I think these comments bring her down to earth more.

- small hitbox
OK

- highly practical with corner jab infinite
OK
 

REO

Undead
How is Kitana's hitbox not considered a positive? She is invulnerable to relaunches and among other nifty things. Also I don't believe Human Smoke is the safest character in the game. At a high level you will be forced into certain situations to rely on the teleport or face death. Kitana at the highest level does not need to rely on moves like square wave or fan lift, all she needs is proper use of instant aerial fan. You're right though, I should have lumped throw with jabs in the game and treat them together instead of separately. And instant aerial fan is one of the most ambiguous specials in the game, she can do it literally at any given time. It's more the player's fault if she's being predictable with it. I think Kitana can go punch for punch with any character in a jab war (even Kabal), hence why I believe she is a contender for the best jabs.

Had to make this short because I'm about to leave. Shock, we can discuss how gdlk Kitana is later at RB.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
How is Kitana's hitbox not considered a positive? She is invulnerable to relaunches and among other nifty things. Also I don't believe Human Smoke is the safest character in the game. At a high level you will be forced into certain situations to rely on the teleport or face death. Kitana at the highest level does not need to rely on moves like square wave or fan lift, all she needs is proper use of instant aerial fan. You're right though, I should have lumped throw with jabs in the game and treat them together instead of separately. And instant aerial fan is one of the most ambiguous specials in the game, she can do it literally at any given time. It's more the player's fault if she's being predictable with it. I think Kitana can go punch for punch with any character in a jab war (even Kabal), hence why I believe she is a contender for the best jabs.

Had to make this short because I'm about to leave. Shock, we can discuss how gdlk Kitana is later at RB.
I totally get what you're saying, don't get me wrong, it's just, I think Kitana is more a specialist character than top tier character, but having said that I don't think she is ever higher than 6th if anyone wants a specific 1-23 rank. IE the same reasons why people think certain characters should move up so many spots just because they use them well. Definitely talk more tonight.

Edit: Also REO, H Smoke, Ermac, Kamo and I think Sonya? can relaunch female ninjas. It is most difficult, but she is not invulnerable.