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Nerfing the Top Tiers

Darth-Nero

Come Thunder! Come Lightning!
He has a 50/50 starter, but the risk/reward even taking the vortex into account is fair. In Thin Ice, the risk/reward for the overhead is never in Sub-Zero’s favor unless he has slide krushing blow loaded. In Dead of Winter even considering the vortex, the risk/reward is still in tact. If he chooses to use the vortex, the low is safe but the overhead is full combo punishable (likely for even more damage than Sub-Zero was going to do if he decided to cash out on damage).

I don’t think some of you guys actually remember the damage/safety/setups MKX characters like Demo, Grandmaster, Quan, etc would get off their 50/50s, even in Dead of Winter, Sub doesn’t do anything nearly as intense and certainly not nearly as safe.

Couple that with the fact that he is lacking a mid, has abysmal counter poking because his D1 has a joke of a hitbox, it’s damn near impossible to counter poke a character like Cage. Add on that his WU U3 can be low profiled easy and his WU U2 is free to jumps making him very weak defensively, so when you DO guess right on his mixup or knock him down, you have more than enough ways to capitalize.

Be that as it may, he is still good and I definitely am not asking for buffs, but he definitely doesn’t need nerfs.

“Still playing MKX” and “cheap as it gets” are pretty hilarious overreactions, cheap as it gets implies that he is as bad as Geras/Sonya/Jacqui/Erron/Scorpion which just isn’t true if you look at it objectively. Sub-Zero has strengths and weaknesses like most characters should.
This is textbook downplaying tho, You're trying to argue that his coin flips is fair because what? He doesn't have a disjointed poke that reach halfscreen or a fast advancing mid? gimme a break, Why are most of the roster are playing a slow neutral heavy game while our friend subzero here along with sonya and erron are running everyone over in a blender? This is all about balance, there is no skill involved in coin flips, you want your win then work for it like everyone else. If subzero is lacking in other aspects then by all means give him a better pokes and a better mids but please stop defending 50/50 in this game.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
This is textbook downplaying tho, You're trying to argue that his coin flips is fair because what? He doesn't have a disjointed poke that reach halfscreen or a fast advancing mid? gimme a break, Why are most of the roster are playing a slow neutral heavy game while our friend subzero here along with sonya and erron are running everyone over in a blender? This is all about balance, there is no skill involved in coin flips, you want your win then work for it like everyone else. If subzero is lacking in other aspects then by all means give him a better pokes and a better mids but please stop defending 50/50 in this game.
Sub isn’t running anyone over in a blender though, the vortex does so little damage and he risks a full combo punish and a bar when he uses the overhead. It seems legit to me honestly considering all of his shortcomings I mentioned. If he had Scorpion’s base normals then yeah I’d agree.

Also I’m not saying he needs the fast advancing mid or crazy poke. I’m saying he has a bad counter poking game and is one of the weakest characters in the game on knockdown. I could also point out his less than desirable damage. I think the 50/50 is fair because the overhead is unsafe, costs a bar, and doesn’t even break 30% midscreen.

To a certain point this isn’t even just about my opinion on him, it’s more that comparing him to the top 5 in an objective way makes it clear that he’s alright. I play as much JC as I do Sub, maybe more these days and I put no money into this game so I have nothing invested. I honestly think the opponent has more than enough to work with to take him out if they understand the character
 
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Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
I think Sub Zero needs reworked, personally. Not nerfed, reworked. I get what Sub Zero mains are saying about the 50/50 being fair in the context of he doesn't have x or y. But it seems to me that this 50/50 is hamstringing the character in the same way Ice Klone did in MKX. It's pretty much all the character has going for him aside from slide and.... F4, is it? Would it not be more beneficial to everyone if he lost the 50/50, that is fuzzy guardable anyway, in exchange for a better mid and/or better neutral tools?
 

REO

Undead
The reason I suggest to make Scorpion's teleport more unsafe on block is because it's the best "random" attack launcher in the entire game. It can be done from the air as well.

In reality, Scorpion players don't want it to become more unsafe because they know they get away with a surprise teleport not being optimally punished every once in a while. If their teleports were always punished optimally 100% of the time, like most Scorpions players would have you believe, they wouldn't emphasis the fact that they don't want this move to be more unsafe on block because deep down they know they get away with it occasionally and want to keep that factor. (which is fine, just be honest about it)



Basically:

Scorpion players regarding the teleport:

"My move is unsafe on block, it always gets heavily punished"

*proposed nerf that won't change Scorpion players current experience of when a teleport is blocked since they claim they always get heavily punished"

Scorpion players response:

"No, don't do that because that will make me always get heavily punished for real"



There are many attacks in this game that are much more unsafe than Scorpion teleport on block such Skarlet's Siphon (-50), Cetrion's Ground Tentacle (-50), Raiden's Storm Cell, etc. etc. and for all completely understandable reasons. I don't see why the same rule shouldn't apply to Scorpions teleport but I'm willing to hear a convincing argument.
 

ShadyHeart

Relationship with Sonya ended
I don't mean to sound rude but some of these are blatantly nonsensical changes. Acid isn't even a problem for example, and yet you want it to hurt erron? Geras sand trap/quick sand being a low at one specific distance? They make no sense. You also have to keep in mind plenty of people play seriously with custom variations and your Scud shot suggestion is a bit of a middle finger to us.
 

Kiss the Missile

Red Messiah
The reason I suggest to make Scorpion's teleport more unsafe on block is because it's the best "random" attack launcher in the entire game. It can be done from the air as well.

In reality, Scorpion players don't want it to become more unsafe because they know they get away with a surprise teleport not being optimally punished every once in a while. If their teleports were always punished optimally 100% of the time, like most Scorpions players would have you believe, they wouldn't emphasis the fact that they don't want this move to be more unsafe on block because deep down they know they get away with it occasionally and want to keep that factor. (which is fine, just be honest about it)



Basically:

Scorpion players regarding the teleport:

"My move is unsafe on block, it always gets heavily punished"

*proposed nerf that won't change Scorpion players current experience of when a teleport is blocked since they claim they always get heavily punished"

Scorpion players response:

"No, don't do that because that will make me always get heavily punished for real"



There are many attacks in this game that are much more unsafe than Scorpion teleport on block such Skarlet's Siphon (-50), Cetrion's Ground Tentacle (-50), Raiden's Storm Cell, etc. etc. and for all completely understandable reasons. I don't see why the same rule shouldn't apply to Scorpions teleport but I'm willing to hear a convincing argument.
Problem is you're proposing that along with removing his ability to amplify on block. The only reason people don't punish tp is because they're afraid of the amp. It's unecessary for both of those nerfs to hit him
 
Sub Zero is not Sub Zero this time around. a lack of a second freeze ability hinders him quickly. Look at the other characters!. Even the lowest tier character has more special moves and strings than Sub Zero. His gameplan is so linear that it becomes ridiculous. Now that sonic exposed his big weakness... The character usage of him will decay in favor of Scorpion. Which Still has his two special combo starters as always....
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I'll take it one step further. I have a list of characters I think that characters should be balanced around, or similar too. As in, the highest/lowest tiered characters should be within the brackets of these characters-

-Baraka
-Skarlet
-Noob
-Sub
-Raiden
-Cetrion
-Jax
-Liu
-Lao
-Jade
-Kitana

If the others above/below got adjustments to align them into that grouping I think the game would play perfectly, and as advertised to us. If we buff up it will just become MKX 2.0 where all characters play like Sonya/Geras/Jacqui, and if we nerf down it will be a never-ending witch hunt of who's next.
Real talk, I don't think Baraka is a perfect epitome of balance.

He's supposed to be more damaging than most characters, I get it. But there is no reason he needs 60% FB combos or 50% 1 bar combos midscreen. It's honestly absurd that I can win off of two combos. He can still be the most damaging character in the game without being as ridiculous as he is now.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Real talk, I don't think Baraka is a perfect epitome of balance.

He's supposed to be more damaging than most characters, I get it. But there is no reason he needs 60% FB combos or 50% 1 bar combos midscreen. It's honestly absurd that I can win off of two combos. He can still be the most damaging character in the game without being as ridiculous as he is now.
Damn, props to being part of the 1% and not downplaying your character.

I think it's to help cover his flaws, and the fact that he has to be played at such a fundamental level to excel in MUs. But I do agree though. I'd keep him virtually the same with a damage reduction. His optimal combos are a bit over the top. MKX damage if he touches you.
 
Problem is you're proposing that along with removing his ability to amplify on block. The only reason people don't punish tp is because they're afraid of the amp. It's unecessary for both of those nerfs to hit him
Nobody forces you to throw random teleports in neutral. The moves is fast enough to be used as whiff punish and projectile punish on reaction. Doing it on neutral needs to be heavily punished, like nomad dash or noob saibot teleport (moves that are even weaker)
 
Real talk, I don't think Baraka is a perfect epitome of balance.

He's supposed to be more damaging than most characters, I get it. But there is no reason he needs 60% FB combos or 50% 1 bar combos midscreen. It's honestly absurd that I can win off of two combos. He can still be the most damaging character in the game without being as ridiculous as he is now.
He has weaknesses, no hit confirmable mid, can be zoned. It's strong, but I don't consider him unfair. Kitana, Kabal (surprisingly), Liu Kang, Jade, Cetrion (even Geras without the throw loop) are also good examples of well rounded characters and how I hope mk11 to be played.
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
I don't mean to sound rude but some of these are blatantly nonsensical changes. Acid isn't even a problem for example, and yet you want it to hurt erron? Geras sand trap/quick sand being a low at one specific distance? They make no sense. You also have to keep in mind plenty of people play seriously with custom variations and your Scud shot suggestion is a bit of a middle finger to us.
Bro, custom variations won't have anything to do with what he said about Scud Shot. He's just saying take it out of that competitive variation, he didn't even propose a change to the move itself.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
He has weaknesses, no hit confirmable mid, can be zoned. It's strong, but I don't consider him unfair. Kitana, Kabal (surprisingly), Liu Kang, Jade, Cetrion (even Geras without the throw loop) are also good examples of well rounded characters and how I hope mk11 to be played.
Of course he has weaknesses, but you could straight up take off 5% damage off of most of his combos and he'd still be fine, that's how insane most of them are.

All I would do is heavily increase FB scaling on longer combos (for all characters, Sonyas FB combos are also stupid) and maybe reduce Gutted KB to 40 damage in ticks instead of 80. He'd still be doing up to 50% but it would require two KBs instead of one, and most of his damage would still be well ahead of the rest of the cast but not stupid.

Edit: Also his hitboxes for D4 and F44 are pretty dumb, there's an invisible hitbox the length of his whole foot on them which would probably fall under hitbox fixes but just throwing it out there.
 
Adjusting the handful of offenders is the sensible way to go. This attitude of "don't nerf the tops, just buff everyone else" is a flawed approach. We've seen what this does firsthand in MKX. Putting the above mentality into effect is colloquially known as "power creep" in the MOBA (and probably other) community(s). What this term refers to is a situation where one or more characters or elements (usually those introduced later in the form of an update) are extraordinarily overtuned either in power, in ability, in 'tools', mobility, et al. and instead of reining them in to a more reasonable level you move the whole roster upwards to meet them, effectively shifting the average strength of the entire cast. Often the effects and consequences of power creep seeping in are somewhat gradual, so at face value everything may seem okay. You are, in a sense, achieving some semblance of inherent "balance" in the fact that everyone is now (in theory) similar overall 'strength.'

The problem, as mentioned before, is that this is how you end up with your agency and decision making diminished, as in MKX (combos do more damage, 50/50s are more abundant, etc.) or Marvel 3 where you get touched once on a left right guess and lose a character. Is it balanced if everyone has a touch of death? Sure. Is it fun and the healthiest way to structure your competitive game? No. The stronger everyone collectively is, the less you need to do to win. More 50/50s means less neutral, more damage (be it in the form of krushing blows, combos, whatever) quite literally directly translates to "I need to make less guesses/reads/outplays to defeat my opponent and close out a round." The answer to say Geras is not to give everyone oki off every throw, or every character 5-6 krushing blows that deal 32-35% per use. It's to rein that silly sh*t in so instead of nobody getting to play the game no matter their character, we ALL get to play it.

We can take a look at the mid range characters and see they feel like healthy designs, most of them not overbearing in the least -- NRS just needs to determine who they want to balance the game around and what they consider to be the ceiling for strength. I'd say Baraka or Kabal feel like respectable bars to meet from above and below, as capable and even powerful characters that don't lack tools or come across as haphazardly stitched together and innately hold a fairly level "strengths and weaknesses" balance, but that's just me.
 
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DarkSado

Noob
NO MORE NERFS! Please for the love of god just BUFF the characters that are lacking.

I don't want to come in after the balance patch and find that the only thing that's changed is Geras now has 2 easy KB, Errons F4 is a Mid, and Sonya only does 30% with 2 meters. And characters like D'vorah and Kitana are left in the dust.
Fuck that, buff the ones people aren't using, give them incentive to play Shao Kahn because his strings no longer suck ass instead of taking incentive away from playing Sonya because now her post patch damage is half of what it once was.

I get what your saying, but i'm not talking about making everyone top tier, just promote all the B and C tiers like Jonny, Kollector, D'vorah, Kitana etc to at least A tier. They don't have to be godly but make them at least compare to the god level characters.
Naw nerf top tier pls!
 

Kiss the Missile

Red Messiah
Scudshot being removed I don't think is the right asnwer. I think they should limit how long he can sit in it as a stance so he can't stare you down in acid as long.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
Despite certain strengths of Sonya, Geras, Erron, Scorpion, Jacqui I don't think they are really deserving of Nerfs.

Theta are definitely strong and do very well at what they do or are jack of all trades.
Scorpion has a fuck neutral teleport, Sonya does hells damage off mix, geras controls the entire screen with sand and has very good mid and close game but there are counters to the characters.

I don't think they are opressive and have no possibility to win against them. I think they are just very strong. If we nerfed them just one nerf each.

Geras - like REO said, sand from everywhere but close is a mid, close stays low.

Sonya- ERDC slight damage reduction only on combos after the cancel. But I don't really think she needs that.

Erron- can't use Scud Shot on B222.

Scorpion- can't meterburn teleport on block.

Jacqui's- throw when teched is farther away from her.

Jax- Fatal Blow from Mid to High.



All the mid to lower tiers need help according to thief specific strengths.
All characters hitboxes need fixed regardless of tier.
All Krushing Blow Requirements need to all be made practical.
For Example: Jax's Quad Grab requires you to press a button on last possible frame 3 times at different timing on animation, its absurdly hard, make it just the last button or to have 2-3 more frames to press each one..
Many other characters need wiffing moves fixed: Jaxs 22 is a high mid but acts like a high high. Kotal everything wiff's, frost has some wiffing issues and others.
Then characters with bad frame data should get help like Kotal, Shao, Kung Lao, Raiden, Frost etc.
 

ShadyHeart

Relationship with Sonya ended
Bro, custom variations won't have anything to do with what he said about Scud Shot. He's just saying take it out of that competitive variation, he didn't even propose a change to the move itself.
That's my point. It leaves you with the ability to just make a variation with both again so we have to deal with it still. The problem would persist.
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
That's my point. It leaves you with the ability to just make a variation with both again so we have to deal with it still. The problem would persist.
Well... yeah. You can do that now. That's how custom variations work, you can add whatever moves you want if they fit in the slots. His whole video is clearly about balancing competitive variations, what exactly is your point?
 

Ayx

Omnipresent
This is textbook downplaying tho, You're trying to argue that his coin flips is fair because what? He doesn't have a disjointed poke that reach halfscreen or a fast advancing mid? gimme a break, Why are most of the roster are playing a slow neutral heavy game while our friend subzero here along with sonya and erron are running everyone over in a blender? This is all about balance, there is no skill involved in coin flips, you want your win then work for it like everyone else. If subzero is lacking in other aspects then by all means give him a better pokes and a better mids but please stop defending 50/50 in this game.
At least he doesn't have a restand. I know the SZ 50/50 madness sucks but honestly it's all he really has. He's also high tier online due to the input lag being an issue, but that could be the same for many characters who are borderline getting away with murder. (Liu Kang's kick string for example). If he had a restand then he would 100% be like MKX and I'd agree with you. But the knockdown game right now is very strong.. way too many options that a SZ player can sleep on and cost him his entire positioning. There's characters like Cetrion, Scorpion and especially Kabal who has a meterless restand that forces you to play the neutral all over again and hold that. (Maybe not Kabal, can't confirm since I don't play him.)

Watching that vid.. I knew REO would bring up Cetrion's teleport nerf again because he's done it before. I sadly have to agree. There's a lot of situations that her back TP can be abused (even midstring to make it safe.) and against a non-TP character it's a nightmare. I wouldn't agree on spending two bars (Unless Scorpion's full screen retreat cancel is also 2 bar) but I can agree on his opinion on nerfing the recovery time of the 2nd bar by 50%. Making it longer doesn't do too much harm to her but enough to not make the move too punishing. Like I said, unless all far TP chars get the same treatment, two bars for an escape is too much against her.

Regarding Erron Black.. I think having B22 Spud Cancel being removed is good enough. Making him use meter is tough for me to agree but then I realize that most characters need meter to launch/extend their combos and Erron having it for free is pretty annoying. However I think it should be one nerf or the other, not both. Puddle hitting both players is also an interesting balancing mechanic.. but doesn't sound practical. Only if when he's in his throw animation he does not get hurt, I could see it being okay. Otherwise there's no value into puddle+grab which is one of his gimmicks.

Finally I think most of us are really looking forward to making the low tiers more viable than nerfing the tops. I think some slight damage nerfs on the top tiers can go a long way for the lower tiers to catch up. KB requirements need to be looked at across the board. Some of them are extremely situational. Like Cetrion's tentacle grab KB that requires them to block "late". The thing is more full screen grabs is used as a punish is to convert w/ a restand to re-position. It's unrealistically risky to abandon the AMP and hope they tried to block late to grant the KB. Other KBs like whiffing 3 puddles for like 30.00 dmg relaunch when an AMP relaunches anyways just makes it useless. Why do I have to sacrifice neutral or combo damage to whiff (not even on block) a Geyser 3 times when if you fart and Geras sandtraps you full screen he gets 300 dmg as a KB plus great positioning being up close again?

There's more to just making a TP fully punishable that they need to look at to nerf chars.. I think modifying KBs as a mechanic for chars can make them climb or fall from the tier list. (DMG and situation grant wise.)
 

zerosebaz

What's the point of a random Krypt?
I agree with most of this. I always thought balance changes should be very mild, in some cases even more so than this ones (Scorpion either shouldn't be able to mb teleport on block, or should have the regular one be - 30, both changes are unnecessary), and in some cases they are a bit...clunky? Let's say Geras sand trap changing from low to mid depending on distance, and outright removing one of Erron's specials are not elegants solutions. Still really good changes overall.

I hope NRS will be very conservative with the changes they make during the game's life. They always change so much. They overbuff, and overnerf, and then buff again, and then completely rework characters when they only needed small changes. The fact they are taking their time before the first patch is a good sign, so there's hope. They have been getting better, but still.