Nerfing the Top Tiers

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I like to keep it short and simple. The moment we dish out multiple nerfs and buffs we will get a nightmare. To many nerds and the game becomes less fun and characters feel extremely limited. To many buffs and characters will get crazy.

Just pick one small nerf And two buffs for the lacking characters and then wait and see how that effects them.

Nerfs:

All fatal blows that are half to full screen unreactable need to either be 19f startup or highs.

All hitbox issues fixed across the cast reguardless of tier.

Mids that are functioning as highs need to be fixed.

Krushing blow Requirements need to all be made more practical.

Last breath needs to have twice the cooldown after using the bars cooldown to start on next round. Right now it refilled on next round.

Meter system: bars come back way to often for breakaway.


Character Specific Nerfs:

Erron Black - loses ability to cancel into Scud Shot on strings. But retains the move for counter zoning.

Sonya - damage scaling on ERDC combos in corner from 50% to 40%.

Jacqui - make the high on B22 not jail so you can duck it.

Geras - make his throws farther away so he can't loop them.

Scorpion - remove meterburn teleport on block and wiff.

Kabal - needs a gap in his F224


Character Buffs:

Kotal Kahn - fix hitboxes with universal changes on D1, 1, 2 and B2. Reduce recovery of Sunlight and startup of Quake. Fix hitbox on Command Grab and allow him to choose sides with bar.

Jax - has a Brushing blow off Quad Grab that requires you to press each extension at last possible moment (2-3frame Window) add a few more frames to press them. His 22 is a high mid but acts like a high high fix it.

Kollector - add disk to back in the pack TV. Make B122 come out on block, make mace cancels -10 to -15. Fix hitbox on mid projection that pops them up after dot is placed.

D'Vorah - make 12 and 21 combo from puddle. F1 from 15f high to a 15f mid or 11f high. Poop bug needs to stay out on block.

Shao Kahn - fix hitboxes.

Fix Jades U+2 so it connects on entire cast. Same with anyone else with the problem.

Fix johnny's KB requirements and hitboxes.

Give every character one(more) string that launches.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

re: kitana highborn

I was actually referring to the inconsistency here
(https://testyourmight.com/threads/inconsistent-frame-data-in-highborn-variation-db-2.70573/)

I missed that. Damn that's crazy, NRS needs to fix that.

 

[GLoRToR]

because reborn would be the most useless variation in the game. making teleport a high would literally destroy any reason to play this variation. SR isn't even that bad to play against because if you know how to punish teleport consistently it's not that big of a deal. yes it leads to good damage (not even close to 50% stop over exaggerating) but has a big risk.
reborn however let's you guess 3 times and even if his b14 tp cancel is punishable the fear of getting launched because of ex tele makes it impossible to react to.
not amp'ing on block would be enough, making it a high would nerf him way too much.

I respectfully disagree.
Please understand for first I don't ever want any character destroyed into uselessness, whether it's a character I play or not.

This is the first thing I always tell people when they think I'm threatening their characters.

1. The Damage. I'm not exaggerating. The combo I'm hit with online on PC is well within the realm of 50% damage once per match which involves the ribcage crack punch KB and then the DoT effect. If you don't use this combo, I strongly recommend you look it up because it's literally stupid right now. We were promised that this game would not have insanely high damaging combos and on that promise we have characters who suffer vs those who do have that kind of damage.

2. Teleport Itself. If the best argument that this is the only tool worth playing a variation for, it's already not worth playing. Period.
It means that variation is a one trick pony and as you say, if people block teleport consistently (which is mostly done offline, or in sub-70ms connections which is not quite the case) then it's already not the variation worth playing anyway.

3. My solution. One-button characters suck. Jade, my main, currently qualifies because her only usable variation is the one with the Air Glaive, which is such an oppressive tool that I can sleep on otherwise superior players with it by just running away constantly. I instead propose for all these one-button characters to have their offending tool normalised and their standard mainstay options looked at so that the game's overall balance-health would not be so skewed as it is right now.

People suffer against Scorpion's teleport, man.
You just need to understand that making this tool less prevalent and his core kit looked at is better for the character overall.

Teleport will still be a powerful tool.

 

[jcbowie]

Nerfs:

All fatal blows that are half to full screen unreactable need to either be 19f startup or highs.

Does this mean we can buff Kabal's fullscreen FB to 19 frames startup. <3

 

[jcbowie]

1. The Damage. I'm not exaggerating. The combo I'm hit with online on PC is well within the realm of 50% damage once per match which involves the ribcage crack punch KB and then the DoT effect. If you don't use this combo, I strongly recommend you look it up because it's literally stupid right now. We were promised that this game would not have insanely high damaging combos and on that promise we have characters who suffer vs those who do have that kind of damage.

This isn't related to Scorpion, but I stand by that having high damage isn't inherently bad or undesirable for this game as long as it's suitably situational and/or risky and/or requires big execution to access. I have a problem with Geras' current design not because he's high damaging but because bf2 juggles/db1 Krushing Blow aren't hard to apply and are usable anywhere onscreen. His OD frames, superior neutral, low resource usage, and ease of execution are what make the resultant damage unacceptable, not the damage itself.

I don't mean this to be snarky, but where exactly did any of the devs say that they were "promising" lower damage for this game? I didn't hear that in any of the Kasts I watched or any other promotional stuff until I started seeing that said on here.

 

[GLoRToR]

This isn't related to Scorpion, but I stand by that having high damage isn't inherently bad or undesirable for this game as long as it's suitably situational and/or risky and/or requires big execution to access. I have a problem with Geras' current design not because he's high damaging but because bf2 juggles/db1 Krushing Blow aren't hard to apply and are usable anywhere onscreen. His OD frames, superior neutral, low resource usage, and ease of execution are what make the resultant damage unacceptable, not the damage itself.

I don't mean this to be snarky, but where exactly did any of the devs say that they were "promising" lower damage for this game? I didn't hear that in any of the Kasts I watched or any other promotional stuff until I started seeing that said on here.

I swear it's been said. Neither of us should have to rewatch all the early kombat kasts because we don't have so many hours in our lives but I promise you that it's been mentioned more than just once. It was part of the initial design philosophy that was then somehow deviated from, probably because of mkx kombo enthusiasts speaking up.

As for situationally high damage, that's what KB Kriteria are for right now. I'm not going to outright say I disagree with high damage period, but I'll say that damage will always be superior to most other aspects of the game and the tradeoff in balance for being able to delete your healthbar on two guesses is arguably being the worst at everything else, and even then such a character will do very well against most because all it has to do is guess right twice.

This is such a design and development headache and I understand that people enjoy doing chunky damage.

I just think that it's hard to execute right and currently characters that do, are all complained about to some extent.

 

[Invincible Salads]

shao kahn still missing stuff, he needs them changes still.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

When it comes to scorpion, the problem variation is reborn. I agree he has too many options on teleport as reborn, tele cancel into grab, tele cancel into string, far tele cancel into spear, regular tele and amp tele. Something should be done about this variation whether that means increased recovery on his tele cancel or tele cancel costing 2 bars of def meter. On the other hand searing rage is perfectly fine and well balanced. If you can't punish between his regular tele and amp tele, something is seriously wrong with your reactions. People calling it a "free launcher" are being ridiculous and most likely have refused to lab their punish and baiting options. Making scorpions teleport a high will kill the character, I'm not entirely sure people who are asking for this have seriously considered or care what that would do to scorpion.

 

[jcbowie]

I swear it's been said. Neither of us should have to rewatch all the early kombat kasts because we don't have so many hours in our lives but I promise you that it's been mentioned more than just once. It was part of the initial design philosophy that was then somehow deviated from, probably because of mkx kombo enthusiasts speaking up.

As for situationally high damage, that's what KB Kriteria are for right now. I'm not going to outright say I disagree with high damage period, but I'll say that damage will always be superior to most other aspects of the game and the tradeoff in balance for being able to delete your healthbar on two guesses is arguably being the worst at everything else, and even then such a character will do very well against most because all it has to do is guess right twice.

This is such a design and development headache and I understand that people enjoy doing chunky damage.

I just think that it's hard to execute right and currently characters that do, are all complained about to some extent.

And see I don't personally mind characters with big old comeback potential like that, who can kill you with 3 or really nice conversions if you get cocky with your life lead. I don't want them guess-based like MKX, you're right, but if Geras and D'Vorah's frames/KB potential/space control were switched somehow comparably? I think I'd be fine with the damage he gets from bf2 and bf1 conversions, because he'd have to actually take risks for damage so I'd be getting more punishes all game and he'd be getting far fewer openings from me. I don't hate gimmicky characters with damage like that because then, when you take the damage, you know full well that it's because you made a big mistake instead of being beaten into neutral submission by the fact that your opponent out-damages you on jab punishes 3:1.

 

[jcbowie]

shao kahn still missing stuff, he needs them changes still.

Like what?

 

[Invincible Salads]

Like what?

a proper stagger for one, his f34 should be turned into that, but his f3 is a bit too negative, needs to be like -3 or something on block, his f34 needs to be special cancellable because hitconfirming f3 in a real match is downright unreliable. his specials need fixing, specifically his taunt, priest buff and up hammer all need to be changed so they actually can be used. his f2 could stand to be sped up a bit as theres almost no reason to use it outside of something like shoudler charge as a whiff punish, if they bumped it down to 16 frames then it'd be much more useable as a check or whiff punish. His crushing blow requirements are mostly ass too.

change all that, and he's good for the rest of the game's life span.

 

[jcbowie]

a proper stagger for one, his f34 should be turned into that, but his f3 is a bit too negative, needs to be like -3 or something on block, his f34 needs to be special cancellable because hitconfirming f3 in a real match is downright unreliable. his specials need fixing, specifically his taunt, priest buff and up hammer all need to be changed so they actually can be used. his f2 could stand to be sped up a bit as theres almost no reason to use it outside of something like shoudler charge as a whiff punish, if they bumped it down to 16 frames then it'd be much more useable as a check or whiff punish. His crushing blow requirements are mostly ass too.

change all that, and he's good for the rest of the game's life span.

Okay I like and agree with most of what you said except for the stagger ideas. f3 should not be -3 on block under any circumstances, it's 3 frames faster than Scorpion's f3 and that's already a nightmare to deal with. I don't think this character needs a stagger like that, it's not really what he's based around. I think the most they should do is remove the gap from f3,4, he doesn't need a mid starter that powerful either but it would be nice if they had to at least hold that.

 

[GLoRToR]

And see I don't personally mind characters with big old comeback potential like that, who can kill you with 3 or really nice conversions if you get cocky with your life lead. I don't want them guess-based like MKX, you're right, but if Geras and D'Vorah's frames/KB potential/space control were switched somehow comparably? I think I'd be fine with the damage he gets from bf2 and bf1 conversions, because he'd have to actually take risks for damage so I'd be getting more punishes all game and he'd be getting far fewer openings from me. I don't hate gimmicky characters with damage like that because then, when you take the damage, you know full well that it's because you made a big mistake instead of being beaten into neutral submission by the fact that your opponent out-damages you on jab punishes 3:1.

I have faith that they're testing the waters for game balance right now and that's why Kabal feels like a better Jade and that's why Geras and Sonya feels like there's nobody else even worth playing right now.

 

[deathstroke187]

no nerf to erron overhead mmmmmmk,..

 

[Stilianos Cambilis]

Scud shot should not be altered from its current form. Also, in tandem with the rest of the very necessary hitbox changes, Erron Black’s f32 is mid mid, but acts like mid high as the 2 can be low profile d3 by every member of the cast, damaging EB’s footsies in a way that was not intended. This furthermore results in a nonexistent stagger for EB where f3 and f32 can both be answered in the same manner. NRS should fix the 2 in f32 to act as a true mid and it should not be susceptible to low profile during a block string f32 or on a whiffed f3 where the 2 would otherwise connect.

Moreover, Raiden b31 has a gap, which would typically allow for flawless block u2 or u3 punish. However, a strange interaction exists with Raiden b31 where it cannot actually be u2 or u3 punished after flawless block, but rather is susceptible to full combo punish after flawless block. This makes it such that the defender does not have to spend one offensive and defensive bar to punish b31 after a fb, and gives a windfall allowing the defender to punish for more damage with no meter investment. This should be fixed to allow the b31 to be punished on fb with only u2 or u3.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Okay I like and agree with most of what you said except for the stagger ideas. f3 should not be -3 on block under any circumstances, it's 3 frames faster than Scorpion's f3 and that's already a nightmare to deal with. I don't think this character needs a stagger like that, it's not really what he's based around. I think the most they should do is remove the gap from f3,4, he doesn't need a mid starter that powerful either but it would be nice if they had to at least hold that.

Lots of characters have staggers tho , all the good characters for the most part. shao Kahn needs a lil more up close than just pokes n throws, it’s so base right now that it’s sad. needs something else to make It worth actually being in they’re face otherwise might as well back up to neutral.

 

[jcbowie]

Lots of characters have staggers tho , all the good characters for the most part. shao Kahn needs a lil more up close than just pokes n throws, it’s so base right now that it’s sad. needs something else to make It worth actually being in they’re face otherwise might as well back up to neutral.

Well that's just it, I don't think directly up in the opponent's face is how Shao Kahn should be played. Just because other characters have powerful staggers doesn't mean Shao Kahn should have them, I think throws and pokes are the kinds of tools that Shao Kahn should have to rely on up close. To use him best he should keep at midrange and take advantage of f2, f4, b4, his big j2, just stuff that covers up that area. I'd rather se a f2 buff and leave him be with his close range buttons.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Well that's just it, I don't think directly up in the opponent's face is how Shao Kahn should be played. Just because other characters have powerful staggers doesn't mean Shao Kahn should have them, I think throws and pokes are the kinds of tools that Shao Kahn should have to rely on up close. To use him best he should keep at midrange and take advantage of f2, f4, b4, his big j2, just stuff that covers up that area. I'd rather se a f2 buff and leave him be with his close range buttons.

But that’s so shitty n basic for up close, if that’s the route u want might as well give him command grab or something instead. Staggers are part of what makes someone’s throwing game good because they have more reason to block. So if your gonna say that throwing is part of his game plan, a stagger would only help that.

 

[jcbowie]

But that’s so shitty n basic for up close, if that’s the route u want might as well give him command grab or something instead. Staggers are part of what makes someone’s throwing game good because they have more reason to block. So if your gonna say that throwing is part of his game plan, a stagger would only help that.

Yeah exactly, but my main point is that his up close game doesn't need to be that great at all. Having a stagger in addition to his strong pokes to give him a powerful up-close game would mean that he has advantages at mid AND close range, which he doesn't need. I didn't say throwing is part of HIS gameplan, except insofar as throwing is a part of ANY character's up-close game.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Still trash tho, definitely would give em the stagger

 

[jcbowie]

Yeah, bottom 1 for sure.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

but I stand by that having high damage isn't inherently bad or undesirable for this game as long as it's suitably situational and/or risky and/or requires big execution to access

I Think all of the above should apply.
If any character gets 35% or more especially 40%-50% it should:

1. Have counters
2. Be risky (not being in the oppressors favor)
3. Off of a situational string
4. Be hard to do (5frame link or less)

For example Jax in Hunker Down gets access to to very situational KBs that land 40%-50% but require dash cancels to link and first him to meet requirements.

One of them is off of his only launcher outside of KB his B2 which is 34f startup to popup and for the 40% he gas to build up heat first to get access to the double fire ball that triggers KB on combos higher than 6 hits..

The other KB 50% requires he uses 2 KB's and Two Bars B2(34f KB) Then dash cancel and has to end his combo with his Quad Grab and perform every exstention to it within 3 France window on all 3 buttons.

 

[Invincible Salads]

i just don’t want shao Kahn to be darkseid all over again and remain C+ or B - tier for the rest of the game

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

i just don’t want shao Kahn to be darkseid all over again and remain C+ or B - tier for the rest of the game

Yeah I don’t think Non-Shao mains understand how Shao lacks being threatening anywhere on screen. Sure you can win with him, but it’s mostly due to lack of matchup knowledge. Once the opponent realizes they can crouch block/neutral duck you to death, it becomes much harder. You don’t even really have to fear his plus frames either. I like the character but when put in context of other much stronger characters, he basically sucks. I’ve also yet to see any Shao main, myself included, consistently hit confirm f3 online. He needs some love NRS.

 

[jcbowie]

Yeah I don’t think Non-Shao mains understand how Shao lacks being threatening anywhere on screen. Sure you can win with him, but it’s mostly due to lack of matchup knowledge. Once the opponent realizes they can crouch block/neutral duck you to death, it becomes much harder. You don’t even really have to fear his plus frames either. I like the character but when put in context of other much stronger characters, he basically sucks. I’ve also yet to see any Shao main, myself included, consistently hit confirm f3 online. He needs some love NRS.

I hate to say it man but you're definitely downplaying. Converse to what you're saying, Shao Kahn doesn't struggle nearly as much as some of his mains declare. You have a 10-frame mid punisher, meterlessly you can go into the string for 20% punish, f4 gives him mid-range accessible plus frames, b4 is a fantastic advancing low that's incredibly safe, his mid pokes don't trigger parries, and his damage is great. Not to mention his wavedash is probably the second best in the game, almost as good if not as good as Kotal's, gives him tons of mobility and lets him close the gap fast to get back into optimal range.

Not top 5 but definitely not bottom 5, let's be clear.