Nerfing the Top Tiers

[REO]

Rumor has it that a balance patch will be coming soon with either the DLC characters or after EVO. We're not sure what direction NRS will take the balancing but I thought I'd join in on the fun and post my two cents. Obviously fix all characters hitbox / hurtbox issues and crushing blow mechanics first before considering any of these changes.

Spoiler

I posted this in the comments but I feel I should also post this question here:

Question for the comments. Would you all prefer NRS tries to make all the characters top tier by pumping buffs, or would you prefer NRS selects a targeted "well designed and balanced" character who plays MK11 well from the cast to aim their balance towards?

I was originally always a fan of "buff everyone and make them as good as the top tiers" until I saw what it did to MKX. In MKX, NRS tried to make everyone "top tier" for a year straight by pumping unnecessary buffs after unnecessary buffs towards the cast in hopes of making every character "viable". If there was a character that wasn't fun to play against in MKX and made the game less enjoyable (Pre-patch Quan Chi, Alien, Tanya, etc.), now that number of less enjoyable characters was amplified by the amount of characters in the cast to have them match the top tiers strength. If Kabal and Batgirl are broken and negatively affecting the games prosperity, why would you make it so there are 10 Kabals and 10 Batgirls instead of addressing the top tiers and tweaking them to play the game that every other character is centralized to play? NRS eventually realized there mistake with MKX, but by then it was too late. Most of the player base moved on from the game because it left a terrible taste in their mouth and frustrating memories.

I don't want to see MK11 go down the same path that MKX did. If Sonya Blade, Erron Black, Geras, and so on are not enjoyable to play against, and reduce the quality design that MK11 was aiming to achieve... Then why further degrade the game to a less enjoyable experience by giving the whole cast brain-dead, auto-pilot crushing blows, 50/50 overhead lows, effortless offense, extremely safe, no risk, auto-neutral attacks, and plenty more just for the sake of "buff everyone because the top tier are the epitome of great game design". I would prefer if NRS selects a character in MK11 that is around middle of the pack that plays the game in a respective manner (Kollector, Shao Kahn, Kitana as examples) and focuses the balance around that character's level by toning down the top tiers and helping up the bottom tiers who need it. I have faith NRS will do this game justice because MK11 (contrary to this video) is astonishingly balanced for a day one balance release.

The reason I chose Kitana / Kollector / Shao Kahn is because these characters have the "fun" element to them while also being unique. A character doesn't necessarily have to be top tier to be "fun". They just have to be well designed and interesting to play.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

No problem with that. Add in adding Custom variations to be tournament/ranked legal and we got ourselves a great game!

 

[xenogorgeous]

yep, some balancing patch is inevitable to happen, very curious what gonna happen .... but I think it's general consensus that some stuff from Sonya, Geras and Erron Black need to be nerfed, while D'vorah needs some desperate buffs for her moveset .... what come along with these in the next patch, will be surprise, hehe

 

[santanabar]

I 100% on top tier need to be toned down, but I don't agree on some of your suggestions. They way I see it, it looks like some characters were designed by a team, and the rest by another, and play completely different games. Like we have Johnny Cage, Frost, Raiden type that play a neutral footsie game, and the Scorpion and Sonya that say fucck that shlt.

The reason people hate playing against Scorpion, Sonya, Sub Zero, Erron black, Geras, etc is because they hit you by basically guessing wrong, while the rest of the cast hit you because they outplayed you. In most cases (not all) the changes you propose don't solve the issue.

Sonya is supposed to be amazing at close range, so her zoning should be crap. And her meterless overhead launcher more neg on block.
Geras throw loop needs to go.
Scorpion teleport (and all f*ck neutral moves) should be death on punish. I agree on that one. Remove amp on block (this includes Jade nitro kick) and make all of them like -30 (slides, shadow kick, shoulder charge, etc).

If NRS decides to stay with this kind of moves (50/50s and unreactable advancing specials), they should be absolute death on block. So yes, this means a nerf to all those characters. Make them play mk11 like the rest of the cast.

 

[Juxtapose]

My thoughts are looking at the game's overall design direction. During Kombat Kasts and such pre-launch, NetherRealm Studios was very specific that this game was going to play different than the last. It was going to be more footsie and execution oriented, would not be strongly 50/50-based, and was not a high/swag kombo game. I recall it being said that normally, you're looking at about six or seven hit kombos (without Gauge) being the norm this time around, and general kombo damage being in the twenty percent, not thirty percent range.

It seems to me that for many characters they achieved this goal, while the various "top tier" characters went beyond this design direction. When I see a character doing 37% damage, no Gauge or Krushing Blow, that tells me that that character is beyond the original design direction of the game.

Provided NetherRealm Studios wants to keep their original vision going, I'd say they need to be scaled back to conform.

 

[TheJaquio]

Watch them nerf Sub Zero even though he has dropped on most everyone's tier lists.

 

[Hitoshura]

Watch them nerf Sub Zero even though he has dropped on most everyone's tier lists.

Sub is actually a good character. These tier lists are either trolling or just plain dumb. He isn't broken by any means. He's just a good character.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

Just finished watching the video, it's actually really good and the changes make sense. They're fairly subtle and not destroying the characters by any means. There will likely be buffs as well so if some of this ends up happening that could just mean a little more balance all around.

I think the game is very balanced right now as it is, but these are great ideas.

edit: I'm kinda shocked he didn't even mention Baraka.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

These are so reasonable. Sonya may need a little more adjusting, but these are all small changes that could really help the game. And a little love shown to the lower tier, and we could have a really solid fun game.

 

[Eji1700]

"Question for the comments. Would you all prefer NRS tries to make all the characters top tier by pumping buffs, or would you prefer NRS selects a targeted "well designed and balanced" character who plays MK11 well from the cast to aim their balance towards? "

I think "selecting a well designed character" as a target is often the way to go, and what makes or breaks that is usually just how aware the creators are of what would be a good target. Games like MK9/MvC/GG/KI all show you can pick a pretty out there baseline as long as you have a good generic set of defensive options (MK 11 does) and are willing to build around it.

I think one of my main complaints with most of the cast right now is a total lack of flavor. Some of the good characters are good because they do what they do best, but some of them feel like "i do everything, even though I shouldn't" cases, and yeah that should be changed. That said for most of the cast I'd much rather see them getting the tools to make them really stick out and feel unique, even if that just means numbers/moves tweaks (especially loadouts and KB's).

I gravitated towards Noob on launch, but honestly i'm kinda disappointed in how bland he feels, so even if they just straight buffed him I'm not sure that would be best, especially when 99% of his signature stuff is jank. Likewise it feels jarring to me that subzero doesn't have ANY loadout with his ice trap, given how iconic and unique it feels.


In short, yeah pick a target, but pick a good target. I'm honestly now sure who that is at this point (geras has the wacky factor, but feels too all rounder, while Jackie is a good example of doing what she wants, if a little boring), but I'm hoping to mostly see buffs and movelist/kb reworks rather than wholesale nerfs.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Sub is actually a good character. These tier lists are either trolling or just plain dumb. He isn't broken by any means. He's just a good character.

He’s good, he has really good strengths and he has legitimate weaknesses that can be exploited. I’m glad people are starting to relax about him though and be a little more realistic.

 

[Blazeglory88]

NO MORE NERFS! Please for the love of god just BUFF the characters that are lacking.

I don't want to come in after the balance patch and find that the only thing that's changed is Geras now has 2 easy KB, Errons F4 is a Mid, and Sonya only does 30% with 2 meters. And characters like D'vorah and Kitana are left in the dust.
Fuck that, buff the ones people aren't using, give them incentive to play Shao Kahn because his strings no longer suck ass instead of taking incentive away from playing Sonya because now her post patch damage is half of what it once was.

I get what your saying, but i'm not talking about making everyone top tier, just promote all the B and C tiers like Jonny, Kollector, D'vorah, Kitana etc to at least A tier. They don't have to be godly but make them at least compare to the god level characters.

 

[Marlow]

Solid, well reasoned ideas.

 

[mastermalone]

I say be mindful of nerfs and focus on improving those characters that need improvement. If you make the game no fun to play, you will lose players.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Imo everyone should be around Baraka level quality. I think Baraka is a really good and well designed character that doesn’t do too much

 

[DDutchguy]

NO MORE NERFS! Please for the love of god just BUFF the characters that are lacking.

I don't want to come in after the balance patch and find that the only thing that's changed is Geras now has 2 easy KB, Errons F4 is a Mid, and Sonya only does 30% with 2 meters. And characters like D'vorah and Kitana are left in the dust.
Fuck that, buff the ones people aren't using, give them incentive to play Shao Kahn because his strings no longer suck ass instead of taking incentive away from playing Sonya because now her post patch damage is half of what it once was.

I get what your saying, but i'm not talking about making everyone top tier, just promote all the B and C tiers like Jonny, Kollector, D'vorah, Kitana etc to at least A tier. They don't have to be godly but make them at least compare to the god level characters.

If you only buff characters that are lacking, won’t you still have the same issue of the god level characters being a lot better than the others? You’d have the S-tiers stay S-tier but the rest of the cast be A. It wouldn’t be the worst situation ever but there would still be a gap that could be closed with one or two nerfs

 

[mastermalone]

If you only buff characters that are lacking, won’t you still have the same issue of the god level characters being a lot better than the others? You’d have the S-tiers stay S-tier but the rest of the cast be A. It wouldn’t be the worst situation ever but there would still be a gap that could be closed with one or two nerfs

To quote a the wise prophet, Syndrome.

"When everyone is super, no-one is....."

 

[OutworldKeith]

Buff the low tier characters, & certain things need to be universal.

All cancels should cost a resource. Meter generates on its own for goodness’ sake.

Hitboxes need to be addressed for the umpteenth time.

Specials shouldn't amp on block.

& this man said Scorpion’s TP should be more negative.... it’s -20 what more do you want?

 

[Darth-Nero]

I don't like the subzero downplay one bit, That character is still playing mkx, you guess wrong you get blown up. idc what the top 1% of the player base thinks of him, that character is as cheap as it gets and have to get nerfed with the rest.

 

[SaltShaker]

Imo everyone should be around Baraka level quality. I think Baraka is a really good and well designed character that doesn’t do too much

I'll take it one step further. I have a list of characters I think that characters should be balanced around, or similar too. As in, the highest/lowest tiered characters should be within the brackets of these characters-

-Baraka
-Skarlet
-Noob
-Sub
-Raiden
-Cetrion
-Jax
-Liu
-Lao
-Jade
-Kitana

If the others above/below got adjustments to align them into that grouping I think the game would play perfectly, and as advertised to us. If we buff up it will just become MKX 2.0 where all characters play like Sonya/Geras/Jacqui, and if we nerf down it will be a never-ending witch hunt of who's next.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Rumor has it that a balance patch will be coming soon with either the DLC characters or after EVO. We're not sure what direction NRS will take the balancing but I thought I'd join in on the fun and post my two cents. Obviously fix all characters hitbox / hurtbox issues and crushing blow mechanics first before considering any of these changes.

Spoiler

I posted this in the comments but I feel I should also post this question here:

Question for the comments. Would you all prefer NRS tries to make all the characters top tier by pumping buffs, or would you prefer NRS selects a targeted "well designed and balanced" character who plays MK11 well from the cast to aim their balance towards?

I was originally always a fan of "buff everyone and make them as good as the top tiers" until I saw what it did to MKX. In MKX, NRS tried to make everyone "top tier" for a year straight by pumping unnecessary buffs after unnecessary buffs towards the cast in hopes of making every character "viable". If there was a character that wasn't fun to play against in MKX and made the game less enjoyable (Pre-patch Quan Chi, Alien, Tanya, etc.), now that number of less enjoyable characters was amplified by the amount of characters in the cast to have them match the top tiers strength. If Kabal and Batgirl are broken and negatively affecting the games prosperity, why would you make it so there are 10 Kabals and 10 Batgirls instead of addressing the top tiers and tweaking them to play the game that every other character is centralized to play? NRS eventually realized there mistake with MKX, but by then it was too late. Most of the player base moved on from the game because it left a terrible taste in their mouth and frustrating memories.

I don't want to see MK11 go down the same path that MKX did. If Sonya Blade, Erron Black, Geras, and so on are not enjoyable to play against, and reduce the quality design that MK11 was aiming to achieve... Then why further degrade the game to a less enjoyable experience by giving the whole cast brain-dead, auto-pilot crushing blows, 50/50 overhead lows, effortless offense, extremely safe, no risk, auto-neutral attacks, and plenty more just for the sake of "buff everyone because the top tier are the epitome of great game design". I would prefer if NRS selects a character in MK11 that is around middle of the pack that plays the game in a respective manner (Kollector, Shao Kahn, Kitana as examples) and focuses the balance around that character's level by toning down the top tiers and helping up the bottom tiers who need it. I have faith NRS will do this game justice because MK11 (contrary to this video) is astonishingly balanced for a day one balance release.

The reason I chose Kitana / Kollector / Shao Kahn is because these characters have the "fun" element to them while also being unique. A character doesn't necessarily have to be top tier to be "fun". They just have to be well designed and interesting to play.

I actually agree with every nerf request except Erron Blacks Scud Shot being removed from the variation. I would just make Scud Shot not cancelable off any normal so he can't make B222 safe or add guess game on 21212.

But it seems Sonyas, Geras, Scorpion, Jacqui and Jax nerfs you requested are all fair and wouldn't destroy the characters.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't like the subzero downplay one bit, That character is still playing mkx, you guess wrong you get blown up. idc what the top 1% of the player base thinks of him, that character is as cheap as it gets and have to get nerfed with the rest.

He has a 50/50 starter, but the risk/reward even taking the vortex into account is fair. In Thin Ice, the risk/reward for the overhead is never in Sub-Zero’s favor unless he has slide krushing blow loaded. In Dead of Winter even considering the vortex, the risk/reward is still in tact. If he chooses to use the vortex, the low is safe but the overhead is full combo punishable (likely for even more damage than Sub-Zero was going to do if he decided to cash out on damage).

I don’t think some of you guys actually remember the damage/safety/setups MKX characters like Demo, Grandmaster, Quan, etc would get off their 50/50s, even in Dead of Winter, Sub doesn’t do anything nearly as intense and certainly not nearly as safe.

Couple that with the fact that he is lacking a mid, has abysmal counter poking because his D1 has a joke of a hitbox, it’s damn near impossible to counter poke a character like Cage. Add on that his WU U3 can be low profiled easy and his WU U2 is free to jumps making him very weak defensively, so when you DO guess right on his mixup or knock him down, you have more than enough ways to capitalize.

Be that as it may, he is still good and I definitely am not asking for buffs, but he definitely doesn’t need nerfs.

“Still playing MKX” and “cheap as it gets” are pretty hilarious overreactions, cheap as it gets implies that he is as bad as Geras/Sonya/Jacqui/Erron/Scorpion which just isn’t true if you look at it objectively. Sub-Zero has strengths and weaknesses like most characters should.

 

[OutworldKeith]

He has a 50/50 starter, but the risk/reward even taking the vortex into account is fair. In Thin Ice, the risk/reward for the overhead is never in Sub-Zero’s favor unless he has slide krushing blow loaded. In Dead of Winter even considering the vortex, the risk/reward is still in tact. If he chooses to use the vortex, the low is safe but the overhead is full combo punishable (likely for even more damage than Sub-Zero was going to do if he decided to cash out on damage).

I don’t think some of you guys actually remember the damage/safety/setups MKX characters like Demo, Grandmaster, Quan, etc would get off their 50/50s, even in Dead of Winter, Sub doesn’t do anything nearly as intense and certainly not nearly as safe.

Couple that with the fact that he is lacking a mid, has abysmal counter poking because his D1 has a joke of a hitbox, it’s damn near impossible to counter poke a character like Cage. Add on that his WU U3 can be low profiled easy and his WU U2 is free to jumps making him very weak defensively, so when you DO guess right on his mixup or knock him down, you have more than enough ways to capitalize.

Be that as it may, he is still good and I definitely am not asking for buffs, but he definitely doesn’t need nerfs.

“Still playing MKX” and “cheap as it gets” are pretty hilarious overreactions, cheap as it gets implies that he is as bad as Geras/Sonya/Jacqui/Erron/Scorpion which just isn’t true if you look at it objectively. Sub-Zero has strengths and weaknesses like most characters should.

What vortex? What did I miss? Subz 50/50 is nothing to cry over. Easy fuzzy guard in most situations. OH can’t be hit confirmed and it’s a punish. Low can be hit confirmed, but he gives up his turn. OH xx slide is also a gimmick.

 

[spidey300]

well if nrs applies the philosophy of pick truly balanced character and balance everyone to that character's standards, I hope they do it a lot better than capcom did in sf5 where there's was to balance around ryu

 

[magandi]

these erron black nerf are insane! no scud shot i can understand, but selfdmg on acid and meter only launch? might as well play him variationless.