Nerfing the Top Tiers

[Invincible Salads]

Good players will flawless f4 pretty easy as time goes on. Not to mention as it is, f34 has a fb gap too, combine that with not being staggerable and that’s another issue at high lvls. And yes shao is def in the bottom 5, just the few below him are much worse.

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

his mid pokes don't trigger parries, and his damage is great.

False. They fixed that in the last patch.

 

[jcbowie]

False. They fixed that in the last patch.

Really? Well that's good, I liked abusing it against Liu Kang but figured it'd be patched out.

Doesn't change the rest of the character's strengths though.

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

Really? Well that's good, I liked abusing it against Liu Kang but figured it'd be patched out.

Doesn't change the rest of the character's strengths though.

What 5 characters are worse in your opinion?

 

[jcbowie]

What 5 characters are worse in your opinion?

At the very least? D'Vorah, Kollector, Kano, Kotal, and Frost. And again, that's assuming he's literally on the very verge of bottom 5, which I don't necessarily think he is or isn't.

I've used Shao Kahn quite a bit and I don't pretend to know all matchups. But it seems to me that these characters have a worse spread than he does.

 

[grandabx]

I think the best way to balance is to go the match-up direction. The way that is accomplished is by giving each character definite strengths AND definite weaknesses. The strength would be the focus point (game plan) and the weakness would be the work-around (compromise). This way each match-up is unique and characters/players have to do more improvising based on the opponent and his/her group. The last thing you want to do is create Frankenstein, like how SNK did with Iori in King of Fighters, where he can do everything and the kitchen sink. That's a definite no-no.

Characters can be placed in groups and the proper changes can be applied to them based on the group. For instance:

Pixie
Sonya
Jacqui
Kitana
Cassie
Liu
Kollector
Johnny

Brawler
Jax
Kotal
Shao
Baraka
Kano

Mid-Zone
Frost
Sub-Zero
Kung Lao
Noob
Kabal
Geras
Scorpion
D'Vorah

Long-Zone
Skarlet
Jade
Cetrion
Erron
Shang
Raiden

Remember, this is just an example of groups so don't get @ me. lol!

Pixie - Great up-close, do little damage, but have very good mix-up tools. They have the greatest stay-on-you potential, but have the lowest health. Mid/long-range options are weak.

Brawler - Heavy-handed. They do the most damage. Don't have many mix-up tools, but instead look to capitalize on whiff-punishing/mistakes for counter-hits. Have armor on some of their slower attacks to scare players from just tossing out buttons. Being slower, they have the highest health.

Mid-Zone - Fully control the neutral from mid-screen, but are rather limited everywhere else. Health is average.

Long-Zone - They want to be as far a possible from the opponent. This is because they have the weakest exclusive defensive tools and the 2nd lowest health under Pixies. Reaching them takes patience.

Something like this allows every character to have their ups and downs and isn't based around dealing with a Frankenstein/Swiss Army Knife situation. Players will have a focus point that they can make unique for their own usage, but still have a definite work-around (weakness).

Tweak the characters this way. If you're going to take away a character's current strength, replace it with things are worthwhile based on their group/label.

With this, you have no more S-tiers.

 

[CriticalDrop]

Bearing in mind that the game current state is (in my opinion, of course) pretty balanced, I'm mainly afraid of the possibility of NRS overnerfing toptiers or overbuffing bottom tiers, as the distance between both isn't enormous by any means.
That said, I feel that the way to go is slightly nerfing the top tiers, as I don't want a game with every character being godlike, but a roster in which every char has its clear flaws and strengths.
As for the nerfs proposed in the video, generally speaking, they seem pretty reasonable, except for the ones that does't adjust to the game general logic (e.g. the Geras' sand attack being mid or low depending on the distance).

 

[Vslayer]

There are characters that are strong yeah, but I feel like they should buff more than nerf.

 

[CriticalDrop]

Whichever the case, I expect the changes to be small, in order to avoid creating new problems in a game that I think is already balanced. In addition, I don't want anybody to be forced to drop his/her main due to reckless nerfs.

 

[Nulak]

Nerf = bad game design, lazy choice, upset people, hurt the game in the long run, kill characters, and of course, you gonna need to patch the game again to normalize the nerfed characters.

Solution: Up other characters.

 

[Tony at Home]

I think making Erron's f4 unsafe (-15 or so) would be better than removing scud shot from the variation.

 

[Juxtapose]

re: kitana highborn

I was actually referring to the inconsistency here
(https://testyourmight.com/threads/inconsistent-frame-data-in-highborn-variation-db-2.70573/)

As I Highborn Kitana player, yes, Edenian Razor definitely needs better consistency.

 

[DanCock]

solid nerf ideas from reo that make sense.

this game does not have any broken characters. any nerf and buffs that do come, hopefully they are tiny. id rather they just allow us to use Kustomizable moves.
no one cares, but im posting my tier list for this game. just to see one year from now if i feel the same. i really struggled to even have a "S" tier. i feel S suggests broken. sonya and geras have a slightly easier time winning, but the player still has to have skill to be able to pull out a victory.

 

[Arqwart]

I've said it before in the balance predictions thread, but it bears repeating here: I think baseline game systems need changing before characters get touched directly via frame changes. This includes the following:

-KB requirements and damages
-Wild hitbox issues
-Variation move combinations
-Cancel meter requirements (or lack thereof)

All the above need some leveling out across the cast. If all these areas are changed, that's more than big enough a batch of nerfs/buffs to begin the balance tweaking with. What concerns me is if NRS does sweeping baseline system changes AND throw in frame data changes across the cast, tossing balance into the air like they're playing 50 card pickup.