The PantyChrist
Rest in Pantiez
Also there's a reason batgirl is near the top of the tier list and joker is at the bottom
I admit I don't know how tough Zatanna's execution is, but she is very hard pressed to match some of the stuff Joker can do.Zatanna doe
I guess as far as playing the neutral game goes, Joker's is the hardest to accomplish. But execution doe....
Are you the Harley player who showed up at our event on Thursday? If so I will tag you in the writeup I'm doing and congratulate you on finding ways out of those setups surprisingly fast considering the lack of experience in the matchup.
I'm going to copy my post from the Joker chat in here:
The only thing BG can do after blocking Crowbar that will reach Joker is Cartwheel and Joker can punish the overhead with B1 then cancel into Crowbar and as you know you can duck the High of the Cartwheel and that gives him a 11/21 into full combo punish(?)
Canceling D2 into crowbar is decent as well. As Youphemism said, crowbar essentially makes Joker safe because it pushes your opponent away from you. I tried to punish with Aquaman and his B12 can't reach and B2 is too slow. I'm pretty sure and am willing to test/bet this applies the if not the rest, then most of the cast.
That was all auto correct on my Iphone. You can hold that.
Oh my bad >.<
Well, I know what I'm practicing tomorrow (Along with relearning the timing to backdash Superman lasers)!
Between D2 and crowbar can be neutral jumped into full combo punish... are we talking about the same thing? Also I have played BGs that blocked crowbar then went for a low into vortex or high. Maybe its because they were in the corner and it worked for some reason
She can not neutral jump and the reason she went for the vortex was because you were in the corner.
Bro, every character can neutral jump between D2 and crowbar for a full punish on reaction. Characters like Grundy have a hard time doing it but they can just 11 out, but in BGs case she can just flying bat between it lol and I wasn't in the corner, she was. But is also hasn't happened in the corner. Sonicfox has done it to me quite a few times before midscreen.
Zatanna is hella easy to use lol (well, except levitate cancels - those take some practice).Zatanna doe
I guess as far as playing the neutral game goes, Joker's is the hardest to accomplish. But execution doe....
Hmmm. I remember testing it with KDZ when he was running Batgirl for a while, but I guess we must have messed it up? I seems to recall always getting pushed out of d1/11 range. I stand corrected, we can 9% on one, options, a decent punish if we duck the straight kick, and block pressure off the third.
There is a very good chance that you played @AL Eevee on my account as I rarely, if ever, play online since I suck ass online (Unless it was last Wednesday, as I did make the error of going online that day due to boredom).
Well yeah, I agree that obvious point.Hmmm. I remember testing it with KDZ when he was running Batgirl for a while, but I guess we must have messed it up? I seems to recall always getting pushed out of d1/11 range. I stand corrected, we can 9% on one, options, a decent punish if we duck the straight kick, and block pressure off the third.
I beg to differ on the smoke bomb not being able to punish gunshot. I've had it done to me. Furthermore, she doesn't really need to punish it, just has to be in a situation where she ducks and you're holding the gun out, in which case you have to guess when she's going to jump, get over the shot, and full vortex bs punish you.
Lastly, we're not really arguing the matchup, we're deflecting the assertion that Joker has an easier neutral game than Batgirl, which is, well...
Yeah that was me
How do you get your MU and character tech knowledge if you don't play online? Thats legitimately the best place to get tech knowledge and character experience besides major tournaments
Footage of others playing shows you all the tech, labbing it shows you how to beat it.
I have labbed him as well as playing matches with him, so everything I'm saying is from experience/testing/what I've read on the forums from you guys. Jokers d2 is being downplayed SO hard right now it's unreal, it's a long-reaching (both horizontally and vertically) mid that can be cancelled with a gun cancel to be made safe on block (you can't punish with flash's flying uppercut or batgirls flying bat...) or can be converted on hit into a setup. J3 is a great air normal, and no Batgirl uses j1...even if we did every conversion we could possibly get off of that would require meter for about 30%ish damage. Anyone needs to be patient, smart and educated in a mu, duh. Yes Joker requires effort to get in but so does Batgirl, as Stevo said we can't throw out teleport willy-nilly to get around zoning. Gun can be punished with teleport IF you don't cancel it, but that's enough of a mindgame in itself that we're taking too much of a risk by teleporting and so a smart, patient player won't risk that. But for the last time, I'm talking about his neutral in general so continuing to use the Batgirl matchup as a comparison isn't helping. What do you mean "ESPECIALLY by Batgirl"?! She can't punish d2~backdash gun cancel. Also d2~acid blossom is still good, listen to what you're saying (moreso what you're omitting) on hit 10% and +4, on block 2% but +5. You're still plus and that's a free jump attack. Again we'll discuss the BG vs Joker matchup in the discussion thread. That's my point, our good options are unsafe but you at least have one that isn't. Have you seen the pushback on crowbar? Normals are irrelevant unless you're Martian lol. If someone pushblocks then fine but it's the same with Batgirl, if someone pushblocks us we have to be patient and make good reads to get in safely since we don't have a safe move with as much reach as your uppercut has. Main Batgirl then you'll see it's not just cartwheel cartwheel cartwheel b1/b2. It's actually harder than that since we don't have the jump normals you do. Oh and I tested out BGs j1 against Jokers jump normals and that only works if you do that preemptively. Joker's j1 if you do it early beats out FLYING BAT.
Fair enough, but that's still 15%. And I'm sure you can do something off of that conversion into crowbar/MB so you have oki/otg and wall carry.Gun dash cancels are uber punishable on block and only net you a conversion of about 15% on hit, with techroll escaping any setup, unless you are near a BGB.
Yeah... so don't teleport willie nillie. Sonicfox stopped doing it, and look what happened. You have a punishable teleport? Use it as a tool to punish unsafe zoning/interactable rather than just spamming it. Problem solved.
Joker actually can't punish Cartwheel if I remember correctly. At -9, we have nothing that reaches at the range that it spaces us out to on block.
Like Vengence said, all we have on the ground that's safe is ending things in flower, which is easy enough to block confirm into in regular strings and puts us at advantage, but has to just be a read off of d2, in which case it generally whiffs if d2 hits, and if you're using it against people on block, you aren't really gaining anything unless they are in the corner and you are spacing them out. D2 teeth, d2 crowbar, d2 gun dash cancel, and d2 canister are all punishable on reaction on block. So I have to rely entirely on unsafe reads in an attempt to blow you up for 15%? Cool.
What the hell are you talking about Batgirl doesn't have anything safe... her 50/50 options are -2 and -6 on block, i.e. safe as shit. And lead to a vortex. A meterless vortex. That has good wall carry. Where she does 50%+ or 40% into more vortex. Having to block a followup doesn't make something unsafe, it means you have to block a followup. That's called "playing fighting games". Stop it.
If you let Joker jump around, he can cause problems and get setups going even on block (though, not against batgirl because her small hitbox causes whiff issues that negate this tech). Even still, you make it sound like he has 50/50's after you block a ji3. He doesn't. He can do b1 (low), crowbar (overhead, 20+ frames), various strings (all mid), or b2 (overhead, 20+ frames, pointless knockback move outside of specific setups). Block low, react if you see something other than b1.
If it try to pull the gun out against you, you hold down, then I have to try to guess when you're gonna jump and go for the teleport. If I guess right, I get 8%. If I guess wrong, vortex city.
Joker's gun is like this in many matchups. Aside it whiffing on some of the dumbest things in the game (Batman's FUCKING FORWARD DASH for instance), it's got hella recovery and can be whiff punished by many zoning heavy characters as long as they wait and simply react to the shot, as well as batgirl with teleport. What? Try using canisters to zone? Oh that's true, I think the one that I started throwing in training just now might finish the animation sometime a few minutes after I finish this post, so I'll get back to you on how effective that is.
Everything Joker does to get close to someone requires a ton of risk with little reward. That is why he is a bad character. Once he is in, he can get a decent amount of stuff going if you're in the corner, near a BGB, or in some other precarious situation that I can exploit to pressure you and open you up, but otherwise you have to make a mistake for Joker to catch you.
So, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you. Again. Batgirl's neutral is not as difficult as Joker's. To say otherwise is just...
Ours is mid, but it's also easy to jump over on reaction and potentially whiff punish at the right range.
Thank you. You can actually punish low with 11 rlg aswell. Straight kick is only +2 though but whiffs high if you block low for the first two hits of cartwheel...
we are very lucky to have a decent amount of character variety in our scene. We also travel out of state to play others like GGA for example. Other than that when you see something stupid you lab it up against it and figure stuff out. Soon though like GGA we will all pick up some characters to help train each other up a bit as well.
It's not an opinion when you are stating incorrect facts.
