Strategy My Thoughts and Opinions on The Joker and appreciation toward the community

[Youphemism]

Plus frames are irrelevant to Jokers gameplay because his neutral is ass. Also he has dirty setups but all of it can be pushblocked. Joker can be maintained throughout the entire MU by almost everyone regardless of what he has. Its about what he lacks. His D2 is great range wise, thats about it. Also Jokers mixups are intellectual and require planning. I would say they are more trap setups because this character actually lacks a strong 50/50.

Plus frames are irrelevant to Jokers gameplay because his neutral is ass.
his neutral is ass.
You think your neutral is ass...don't even get me started! Batgirl says hey

Jokers d2 is VERY good, good vertical and horizontal reach. His jump normals are arguably the best in the game, with j1 being great for air to airs, j2 being good for ambiguous crossup setups and j3 being one of the best j3s in the game for obvious reasons. Crowbar, although it's not the fastest special in the game, has good reach, an otg setup on hit and wall carry. If it's blocked who cares? It's still safe

My purpose here is not to upplay Joker, I know he's ass lol. I just couldn't let that statement stand...

 

[The PantyChrist]

Can we PLEASE not turn this into a batgirl downplaying thread?

 

[Youphemism]

Can we PLEASE not turn this into a batgirl downplaying thread?

It....isn't? I was talking about Joker

 

[Fromundaman]

Maybe for you. When you beat me, I get mad as fuck. But that's because you're good with the Joker and a good Joker has the tendency to piss people off.

Really? I rarely see people rage when I win.

Plus frames are irrelevant to Jokers gameplay because his neutral is ass. Also he has dirty setups but all of it can be pushblocked. Joker can be maintained throughout the entire MU by almost everyone regardless of what he has. Its about what he lacks. His D2 is great range wise, thats about it. Also Jokers mixups are intellectual and require planning. I would say they are more trap setups because this character actually lacks a strong 50/50.

We disagree very heavily on the importance of plus frames then my friend. When you have enough plus frames at the end of a combo for a safe jump setup against a standing opponent, I would not say it's irrelevant.

What do you mean by D2 being only good range-wise? It has great cancel frames, a 360 hitbox, comes out in 12 frames and has retardedly disjointed range. The only bad thing I can say about this move is that it extends our hurtbox slightly and is a mid.

Agreed with intellectual mixups, but that doesn't make the mixups any less real. It just means you need about 30 more hours of training mode than a Batgirl player in order to get stupid mixups down.


Every character's stuff can be pushblocked
If anything that may apply *less* to us since we can blow up pushblocks without expending meter in multiple setups both midscreen and in the corner.

 

[The PantyChrist]

I think all d2s are mids aren't they? What's wrong with that. Also sorry but batgirls neutral is better than jokers

 

[Vengeance135]

Maybe for you. When you beat me, I get mad as fuck. But that's because you're good with the Joker and a good Joker has the tendency to piss people off.

Well come bro when I play you and Doomsday...

 

[Vengeance135]

Really? I rarely see people rage when I win.



We disagree very heavily on the importance of plus frames then my friend. When you have enough plus frames at the end of a combo for a safe jump setup against a standing opponent, I would not say it's irrelevant.

What do you mean by D2 being only good range-wise? It has great cancel frames, a 360 hitbox, comes out in 12 frames and has retardedly disjointed range. The only bad thing I can say about this move is that it extends our hurtbox slightly and is a mid.

Agreed with intellectual mixups, but that doesn't make the mixups any less real. It just means you need about 30 more hours of training mode than a Batgirl player in order to get stupid mixups down.


Every character's stuff can be pushblocked
If anything that may apply *less* to us since we can blow up pushblocks without expending meter in multiple setups both midscreen and in the corner.

Mb canister Is plus 21 and more then half the cast can AA a follow up jump and 90% of his stuff is reactable or negative so thats more then enough of what i need to say plus frames and Joker lol and pushblocks greatly effect Joker more then anybody in this game because of the lack of what he has and the fact he needs to actually hit you up close to do anything and can be zoned out hella easy. Jokers D2 is one of the slower D2s in the game that has whiff issues when cancelling to other moves and can be stuffed hella easy because of the start up. I do agree with you and Batgirl though lol

 

[Vengeance135]

Plus fraies are irrelevant to Jokers gameplay because his neutral is ass.
his neutral is ass.
You think your neutral is ass...don't even get me started! Batgirl says hey
Jokers d2 is VERY good, good vertical and horizontal reach. His jump normals are arguably the best in the game, with j1 being great for air to airs, j2 being good for ambiguous crossup setups and j3 being one of the best j3s in the game for obvious reasons. Crowbar, although it's not the fastest special in the game, has good reach, an otg setup on hit and wall carry. If it's blocked who cares? It's still safe

My purpose here is not to upplay Joker, I know he's ass lol. I just couldn't let that statement stand...

You use batgirl... I really dont need to say anymore. But if you want me to seriously reply to your comment i will

 

[Fromundaman]

I think all d2s are mids aren't they? What's wrong with that. Also sorry but batgirls neutral is better than jokers

I know, I was kind of using that to exemplify that I don't think this move has any real faults.

Mb canister Is plus 21 and more then half the cast can AA a follow up jump and 90% of his stuff is reactable or negative so thats more then enough of what i need to say plus frames and Joker lol and pushblocks greatly effect Joker more then anybody in this game because of the lack of what he has and the fact he needs to actually hit you up close to do anything and can be zoned out hella easy. Jokers D2 is one of the slower D2s in the game that has whiff issues when cancelling to other moves and can be stuffed hella easy because of the start up. I do agree with you and Batgirl though lol

Depends on the setup. Off of 212>MB RLG very few characters can AA you, although they can backdash a jump in. That said that's not a true safe jump setup. We can however get a free dash after MB RLG and B1 check, which once respected opens a lot of other doors...

Safe jump setups though are things like certain flower into teeth setups, which you can actually end combos on, and that make it so the opponent literally just has to sit there and guess what comes next. There is no way in hell that something like that can be called irrelevant.



On the rest, well... I guess we'll agree to disagree.
I may have to show my local scene this thread though. They didn't believe me that Joker players still don't think D2 is good or that Joker has good pressure

 

[Notez4]

This is the first shit I've seen you say in like 3 months, and it's really gonna be "why don't you remember me?"... Lol c'mon now....

haha man in all honesty i dont play injustice as much as before. been on that street fighter and i just got kof. but joker still putting in work when i get on. i play mk a lot now too.

 

[Fromundaman]

haha man in all honesty i dont play injustice as much as before. been on that street fighter and i just got kof. but joker still putting in work when i get on. i play mk a lot now too.

Eevee played you the other day and was saying you still got it!

Any chance you may attend Summer Jam?

 

[Vengeance135]

I know, I was kind of using that to exemplify that I don't think this move has any real faults.




Depends on the setup. Off of 212>MB RLG very few characters can AA you, although they can backdash a jump in. That said that's not a true safe jump setup. We can however get a free dash after MB RLG and B1 check, which once respected opens a lot of other doors...

Safe jump setups though are things like certain flower into teeth setups, which yo can actuas on, and that make it so the opponent literally just has to sit there and guess what comes next. There is no way in hell that something like that can be called irrelevant.



On the rest, well... I guess we'll agree to disagree.
I may have to show my local scene this thread though. They didn't believe me that Joker players still don't think D2 is good or that Joker has good pressure

I dont know that acid (+3 on hit, +5 on block) amd teeth is good for safe jump options because if your opponent isnt putting you on blast for that there is an issue. That being said, I'm not sure who your opponents are so i cant really say much there. As far as teeth acid setups go most characters can d2 and all characters can pushblock and now you are at square one. The people I play online even blow shit like that up and theres a delay. But we will agaree to disagree lol as far as D2 goes, its range is phenomenal lol

 

[Eldriken]

Joker's d2 range is stupid. If he d2s at the start of a fresh match and the opponent is walking backwards, it hits them even though it's hitting thin air. DA. FUQ.

 

[Fromundaman]

I dont know that acid (+3 on hit, +5 on block) amd teeth is good for safe jump options because if your opponent isnt putting you on blast for that there is an issue. That being said, I'm not sure who your opponents are so i cant really say much there. As far as teeth acid setups go most characters can d2 and all characters can pushblock and now you are at square one. The people I play online even blow shit like that up and theres a delay. But we will agaree to disagree lol as far as D2 goes, its range is phenomenal lol

I think you misunderstood me.

I mean doing acid flower onto teeth so that you come out of acid blossom when teeth go off, giving you max blockstun from teeth (or a reset if they let it hit). There are a few setups where you can get max blockstun off of it (Like B3>D2>far teeth>F23>far teeth>immediate flower). In setups like that one you can't even backdash until after I have hit the ground on the following jump in.
You are right though, there are teeth restand setups where characters can D2 you. I avoid those for precisely that reason.


That said I do test all of my setups extensively on my own precisely to make sure I can tell when opponents are letting me get away with shit and when they really can't do jack, so please assume I am not mentally handicapped when we discuss things.

 

[Vengeance135]

I think you misunderstood me.

I mean doing acid flower onto teeth so that you come out of acid blossom when teeth go off, giving you max blockstun from teeth (or a reset if they let it hit). There are a few setups where you can get max blockstun off of it (Like B3>D2>far teeth>F23>far teeth>immediate flower). In setups like that one you can't even backdash until after I have hit the ground on the following jump in.
You are right though, there are teeth restand setups where characters can D2 you. I avoid those for precisely that reason.


That said I do test all of my setups extensively on my own precisely to make sure I can tell when opponents are letting me get away with shit and when they really can't do jack, so please assume I am not mentally handicapped when we discuss things.

Hahahaha sorry for misunderstanding that and my point to that is that its fine if it works but pushblocking still puts you back to square one and in neutral Joker sucks. @Eldriken but that bodysplash and online ES DOOOOOHHHH

 

[Eldriken]

Hahahaha sorry for misunderstanding that and my point to that is that its fine if it works but pushblocking still puts you back to square one and in neutral Joker sucks. @Eldriken but that bodysplash and online ES DOOOOOHHHH

They both suck.

 

[The PantyChrist]

My thoughts on d2.
Yes it has great range and it cancels nicely. It also is a great aa and works vertically and horizontally, and can set up mind games in certain specific scenarios.
Now what I don't like is that our longest reaching footsie tool is:
full combo on block if not cancelled, and or punishable/interruptible on block if cancelled into any rewarding special by the whole cast. Our best footsie tool also scales damage heavily. If d2 is used out side of the range of f2 or s3(which is really where it should be used) it can make it difficult to combo or get rewarded for the risk. You are punishable for virtually the entire animation on whiff. Lastly we are playing a guessing game with it.
Let's say opponent is standing and d2 hits. Crowbar: from many ranges it whiffs and opponent recovers. Blossom: will either whiff and pressure is over or hit We are +3 and they are standing outside of range we can do anything about.
Gas can: I think converts well on hit but I would have to double check the consistency on it.
Teeth: as far as I know there isn't a way to convert this unless they have started jumping. Maybe possible in the corner but then it's super punishable on block.
Now let's say they block d2 we have another guessing game to play.
Crowbar: it will hit or push them away on block. Depending on opponent we have to get in again or get in or get away. Or we get to do our thing on hit. It's also interruptible.
Flower: if d2 is blocked, this will most likely also be blocked. +5 and out of range of anything. Oh, if it hits it's 10% and were +3.
Gas can: reactable, interruptible. If respected and blocked,+21. On hit we can go ham.
Teeth: d2 is blocked and we throw teeth, I think we are actually more - than if we had not cancelled, but both are full combo punishable

 

[deg222]

Joker is thee hardest character to use in this game... PERIOD.

Zatanna doe

I guess as far as playing the neutral game goes, Joker's is the hardest to accomplish. But execution doe....

 

[Youphemism]

I think all d2s are mids aren't they? What's wrong with that. Also sorry but batgirls neutral is better than jokers

You use batgirl... I really dont need to say anymore. But if you want me to seriously reply to your comment i will

Elaborate. Also just because d2 is a mid doesn't mean it takes away from his neutral game, it can also be cancelled into other moves and help with setups.

 

[Vengeance135]

Elaborate. Also just because d2 is a mid doesn't mean it takes away from his neutral game, it can also be cancelled into other moves and help with setups.

Okay I'll do a quick elaboration because i'm pressed for time. Batgirls J1 beats all of Jokers jump attacks and trades with J1 unless Joker is jumping back on read to slap you. Read @The_PantyChrist D2 excerpt in this thread for that and crowbar is safe on block but has no pushback and is -4 so you can start you vortex after you block it. Anything else let me know braa

 

[Youphemism]

Okay I'll do a quick elaboration because i'm pressed for time. Batgirls J1 beats all of Jokers jump attacks and trades with J1 unless Joker is jumping back on read to slap you. Read @The_PantyChrist D2 excerpt in this thread for that and crowbar is safe on block but has no pushback and is -4 so you can start you vortex after you block it. Anything else let me know braa

I meant elaborate as to why his neutral is worse lol

 

[Vengeance135]

Zatanna doe

I guess as far as playing the neutral game goes, Joker's is the hardest to accomplish. But execution doe....

Braa Jokers execution is hella strict to be effective with him so chyeah ninja dat execution DOHH

 

[Vengeance135]

I meant elaborate as to why his neutral is worse lol

@The_PantyChrist or any Joker player or anyone please elaborate on why Jokers neutral is worse then Batgirls. If they dont then I'll respond tonight bro. I gtg lol

 

[Vengeance135]

I meant elaborate as to why his neutral is worse lol

I am currently taking a dump right know (@AK Pig Of The Hut ) so I will elaborate quick. Jokers best footsie tool is D2. Yes it has great range but it is incredibly unsafe which means you have to commit to it and a cancel afterwards now heres the problem. 3/4 things Joker can cancel into from D2 is extremely unsafe to do and Batgirl can blow the shit up hard. Btw Jokers D2 can be stuffed pretty easily just saying. Now outside of this Joker has no reliable normals or specials he can play footsies with which means its a mind game in neutral and Joker has to establish respect of the few options he has while Joker already has to respect the options Batgirl has. Joker has no cartwheel or dp or teleport. I can't tell you how many times I have been in neutral and some dude straight up dashed and just threw a cartwheel. Sure Joker can parry a cartwheel but what if you do something else. Vortexs bro vortexs. Joker has far more to risk in neutral due to the lack of tools. While Batgirls tools are unsafe for the most part, they are way more rewarding then Jokers. I hope I explained enough because I'm done taking a shit and I'm not going to examine it @AK Pig Of The Hut

 

[HoneyBee]

Does he actually post and such on here? If so, I will bring him into the fold (i.e., big ass Joker convo where we plot all of your doom via crazy situational tech and shenanigans).

I'm not sure how active he is on the forums but just send him a PM and I'm sure you guys could all help each other out