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Strategy My Thoughts and Opinions on The Joker and appreciation toward the community

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I am currently taking a dump right know (@AK Pig Of The Hut ) so I will elaborate quick. Jokers best footsie tool is D2. Yes it has great range but it is incredibly unsafe which means you have to commit to it and a cancel afterwards now heres the problem. 3/4 things Joker can cancel into from D2 is extremely unsafe to do and Batgirl can blow the shit up hard. Btw Jokers D2 can be stuffed pretty easily just saying. Now outside of this Joker has no reliable normals or specials he can play footsies with which means its a mind game in neutral and Joker has to establish respect of the few options he has while Joker already has to respect the options Batgirl has. Joker has no cartwheel or dp or teleport. I can't tell you how many times I have been in neutral and some dude straight up dashed and just threw a cartwheel. Sure Joker can parry a cartwheel but what if you do something else. Vortexs bro vortexs. Joker has far more to risk in neutral due to the lack of tools. While Batgirls tools are unsafe for the most part, they are way more rewarding then Jokers. I hope I explained enough because I'm done taking a shit and I'm not going to examine it @AK Pig Of The Hut
Again that's talking about the Joker vs BG mu, and I'm not asking about that I'm asking about why you think Joker's neutral in general is better than Batgirls neutral in general. We'll discuss the actual BG Joker mu in the mu thread when it comes to it.
 

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
Again that's talking about the Joker vs BG mu, and I'm not asking about that I'm asking about why you think Joker's neutral in general is better than Batgirls neutral in general. We'll discuss the actual BG Joker mu in the mu thread when it comes to it.
Oh whoops I thought you were trying to say jokers neutral was better than batgirls
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Joker's d2 range is stupid. If he d2s at the start of a fresh match and the opponent is walking backwards, it hits them even though it's hitting thin air. DA. FUQ.
So do a thousand others moves on other characters that have much better grounded conversion options than Joker's d2.... sooo.... yeah.... lol.
DD is one of a few characters that actually has to respect it as an option.
Many do not.
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
There should be a joker challenge. Everyone puts in money and the first joker to place top 8 gets it. Lol
I remember a thread like 2 weeks ago where a guy put together data on characters and tourney's, and I think Joker's number was stupid low. Correct me if wrong, but I don't think he's ever even been in a Top 16.
 

Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
I remember a thread like 2 weeks ago where a guy put together data on characters and tourney's, and I think Joker's number was stupid low. Correct me if wrong, but I don't think he's ever even been in a Top 16.
Not in America i don't think right @StevoSuprem0 i though one day when a top player has done all they need top do they would just play him. Joker players are good but i don't think any of then are THAT good, i may be wrong though. I wish ChrisG played joker instead of green arrow. He might have had more success maybe in the current version of ever game. Just my unimportant opinion though.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
In general I think it is yes, in that particular matchup arguably.
Joker's struggles to deal with zoning, Batgirl does not.
Batgirl has 50/50 FOOTSIE tools. Joker has d2.
Joker is better at aerials, but Batgirl has solid options in the A2A game with the right read.
Both are pretty equivalent at playing defensively, but I'd give slight advantage to Batgirl because teeth pale in comparison to reactionary teleports and punishing dashes with 50/50's.
I'm gonna say Batgirl all the way.
Joker's neutral game is precise and challenging in a way that no other character's in this game really is.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I remember a thread like 2 weeks ago where a guy put together data on characters and tourney's, and I think Joker's number was stupid low. Correct me if wrong, but I don't think he's ever even been in a Top 16.
Not in America i don't think right @StevoSuprem0
Nope.
Two of us have made 17th reasonably respectable majors though, I believe.
Overseas, Joker has done very well with some pretty steep competition as well though.
Although... Grr did switch to Joker in top 8 after losing with Bane against Honeybee... sooo.... no, Joker has never been in top 16 in NA.
 

Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
Nope.
Two of us have made 17th reasonably respectable majors though, I believe.
Overseas, Joker has done very well with some pretty steep competition as well though.
Not to be a fanboy but do you think chris g could have done well with joker if he still played the game, or reo? I would say theo but joker doesn't have trident rush.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
@Youphemism
I used the Joker vs BG as an example. That was a in general statement. Reread it. Also read paties crisis D2 excerpt because it is explained well there.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Joker's struggles to deal with zoning, Batgirl does not.
Batgirl has 50/50 FOOTSIE tools. Joker has d2.
Joker is better at aerials, but Batgirl has solid options in the A2A game with the right read.
Both are pretty equivalent at playing defensively, but I'd give slight advantage to Batgirl because teeth pale in comparison to reactionary teleports and punishing dashes with 50/50's.
I'm gonna say Batgirl all the way.
Joker's neutral game is precise and challenging in a way that no other character's in this game really is.
You shouldn't be struggling much with zoning in the neutral game lol
Batgirl has SLOWER, LESS-RANGED footsie tools. Don't dismissively say "Joker has d2", it can be cancelled into gun dash cancel on both hit (for a conversion, no matter what the damage, and possibly even an oki/teeth setup afterwards) and on block to make it safe.
In general though Joker's air normals are better is all I'm saying
Teleport is still takes 20+ frames to hit and is roughly -20 on block though. True though that teeth isn't the best move in the game but crowbar is alright for an advancing special since it's safe on block and gives you oki/an otg on hit. Also true, she can punish dashes with one of her 50/50 options, b1 is helpful there moreso though since b2 has little range.
You have plus frames to work with in your neutral game that we don't though. Every option we have is either punishable, backdashable or negative. Even redemption (bf3) is interruptable for full combo even though it's +1 on block. Cartwheel, though advancing, is punishable no matter what option (refer to PLs video on how to block it and although he says "I'll just take the damage" low cartwheel is fuzziable at 18 frames of startup and -9 on block)
Your jump normals are better, you can get in with not so much risk with j3 into a mixup/setup whereas we have to make a good read to get in or we get punished no matter what we try. That's not to say that I think your neutral is so much better I just think that at least you have an option with minimal risk you can use to get in.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
@Youphemism
My dude, idk what Joker player you are playing but you need to lab the Joker or actually start to use him to realize his true struggle in neutral. With the exception of acid, EVERYTHING Joker throws is negative or on reaction easily unsafe. You want to beat Jokers jumps then J1. Joker has to RESPECT everybody's neutral game regardless of character because in neutral, on the ground Joker has NOTHING that deserves respect besides D2 which as I said earlier is HIGH risk. All you need is one good hit, Joker needs to be patient, smart and educated in the MU to stand a chance. Gun cancels are ass because they can be blown up on reaction due to Jokers ASS dashes ESPECIALLY by Batgirl. Joker has ONLY ONE safe option from a D2 cancel and that is acid. Worse case you lose 10%, best case you block and lose 2%. Re-think about the risk/reward factor, as well as the tools in which each character has. Gun can be punished on reaction by teleport at full screen so playing mind games with a character that has the touch of death is a hard bargain. All in all Batgirls options may be unsafe but so are Jokers with one exception and Jokers options limit him severely while batgirl can convert most of her options to your death. Her neutral is better because of the options she has, and btw crowbar is a good move but once you block it then Joker is forced to take what follows due to slow normals and in 90% of the casts case, a 50/50 mixup and Joker has no true mixups off a blocked or hit J3 lol J3 is +1 on block but has decent pushback and almost all of Jokers moves are reactable, on hit he can throw teeth but any follow-up can be pushblocked and putting him back to neutral where he struggles hard. Bro make Joker your main then you will truly see the struggle through honest eyes. @StevoSuprem0 did I miss anything?
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
You shouldn't be struggling much with zoning in the neutral game lol
Batgirl has SLOWER, LESS-RANGED footsie tools. Don't dismissively say "Joker has d2", it can be cancelled into gun dash cancel on both hit (for a conversion, no matter what the damage, and possibly even an oki/teeth setup afterwards) and on block to make it safe.
In general though Joker's air normals are better is all I'm saying
Teleport is still takes 20+ frames to hit and is roughly -20 on block though. True though that teeth isn't the best move in the game but crowbar is alright for an advancing special since it's safe on block and gives you oki/an otg on hit. Also true, she can punish dashes with one of her 50/50 options, b1 is helpful there moreso though since b2 has little range.
You have plus frames to work with in your neutral game that we don't though. Every option we have is either punishable, backdashable or negative. Even redemption (bf3) is interruptable for full combo even though it's +1 on block. Cartwheel, though advancing, is punishable no matter what option (refer to PLs video on how to block it and although he says "I'll just take the damage" low cartwheel is fuzziable at 18 frames of startup and -9 on block)
Your jump normals are better, you can get in with not so much risk with j3 into a mixup/setup whereas we have to make a good read to get in or we get punished no matter what we try. That's not to say that I think your neutral is so much better I just think that at least you have an option with minimal risk you can use to get in.
Gun dash cancels are uber punishable on block and only net you a conversion of about 15% on hit, with techroll escaping any setup, unless you are near a BGB.
Yeah... so don't teleport willie nillie. Sonicfox stopped doing it, and look what happened. You have a punishable teleport? Use it as a tool to punish unsafe zoning/interactable rather than just spamming it. Problem solved.
Joker actually can't punish Cartwheel if I remember correctly. At -9, we have nothing that reaches at the range that it spaces us out to on block.
Like Vengence said, all we have on the ground that's safe is ending things in flower, which is easy enough to block confirm into in regular strings and puts us at advantage, but has to just be a read off of d2, in which case it generally whiffs if d2 hits, and if you're using it against people on block, you aren't really gaining anything unless they are in the corner and you are spacing them out. D2 teeth, d2 crowbar, d2 gun dash cancel, and d2 canister are all punishable on reaction on block. So I have to rely entirely on unsafe reads in an attempt to blow you up for 15%? Cool.
What the hell are you talking about Batgirl doesn't have anything safe... her 50/50 options are -2 and -6 on block, i.e. safe as shit. And lead to a vortex. A meterless vortex. That has good wall carry. Where she does 50%+ or 40% into more vortex. Having to block a followup doesn't make something unsafe, it means you have to block a followup. That's called "playing fighting games". Stop it.
If you let Joker jump around, he can cause problems and get setups going even on block (though, not against batgirl because her small hitbox causes whiff issues that negate this tech). Even still, you make it sound like he has 50/50's after you block a ji3. He doesn't. He can do b1 (low), crowbar (overhead, 20+ frames), various strings (all mid), or b2 (overhead, 20+ frames, pointless knockback move outside of specific setups). Block low, react if you see something other than b1.
If it try to pull the gun out against you, you hold down, then I have to try to guess when you're gonna jump and go for the teleport. If I guess right, I get 8%. If I guess wrong, vortex city.
Joker's gun is like this in many matchups. Aside it whiffing on some of the dumbest things in the game (Batman's FUCKING FORWARD DASH for instance), it's got hella recovery and can be whiff punished by many zoning heavy characters as long as they wait and simply react to the shot, as well as batgirl with teleport. What? Try using canisters to zone? Oh that's true, I think the one that I started throwing in training just now might finish the animation sometime a few minutes after I finish this post, so I'll get back to you on how effective that is.
Everything Joker does to get close to someone requires a ton of risk with little reward. That is why he is a bad character. Once he is in, he can get a decent amount of stuff going if you're in the corner, near a BGB, or in some other precarious situation that I can exploit to pressure you and open you up, but otherwise you have to make a mistake for Joker to catch you.
So, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you. Again. Batgirl's neutral is not as difficult as Joker's. To say otherwise is just...
 

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
I wanna double check. But here's some thoughts. Our dash cancellable projectile is +4, but high as fuck. Yours is mid, plus as fuck, and leads into vortex or full combo. You have an off the bat mixup with b2/b1 which both are safe and great range. B2d3 is interruptible and backdashable? Use b21. It's +3 and it will condition people to respect it. Cartwheel is a decent tool, along with smoke bomb and flying bat. Both of the latter lead into vortex. Being full combo punishable is the only thing that stops this game from being injustice: batbitches among us. Also I can't tell you how many times I've had batgirls dash right up to footsie range on me because I'm terrified of smoke bomb and straight up mix me up or when I think they're going to try to hit them first and they smoke bomb(which has great priority btw) jokers dash is worse and has nothing like that. A super high gunshot that leads to nothing except 8%. He is worthless outside of far teeth range and even then from startup until the teeth become active is between 60-90 frames. Also batgirl has a LOT of strings you can use for conditioning and unreactable. I think her 21 is +5 and if I'm not mistaken also leads into a mixup. But I'm surprised of the bgs I've fought I only see like 4 strings. Now if we're comparing her neutral to characters like aqua or mmh then you may be right but almost the entire cast suffers in neutral against them. But against joker I'm sorry but you can't make the case that his neutral is better