Match-up Discussion My Joker matchup chart

[EMP Dark]

Qwark28 Why do you think the Black Adam mu is only 4-6? As a fellow Joker main i think it's at least 2-8 for Joker because i feel like Black Adam completely shuts Joker down especially from fullscreen since i have alot of experience in that mu. Seems like the only hope for Joker is to get Adam in the corner & abuse him with teeth setups.

 

[Qwark28]

You need to explain that?
I'm talking about jump 3 (the crowbar) not jump 2. Jump 3, which gives you a hard knock down how can you combo off of that? Whit out throwing out teeth, cause that doesn't combo, thats a reset.

Yes, jump 3. You could combo from it from since day 1 and its not an untechable knockdown and it's not a reset lol

combo is j3 323 flower at mid height
B1 flower from high height
D2 mb RLG from high height

 

[lorenzo]

The two characters, I disagree the most are Green Lantern and Batman. Green Lantern is more of a 5-5 matchup and batman at worst is 4-6.

 

[Qwark28]

Qwark28 Why do you think the Black Adam mu is only 4-6? As a fellow Joker main i think it's at least 2-8 for Joker because i feel like Black Adam completely shuts Joker down especially from fullscreen since i have alot of experience in that mu. Seems like the only hope for Joker is to get Adam in the corner & abuse him with teeth setups.

I've had a lot of experience with BA since I used to main him and had found a good amount of his tech early on in the game as well as some neat stuff later on and I know the character inside out

Fullscren black magic on block forces BA to a gunshot, gunshot on block forces a free dash from you against multiple characters, at 3/4 screen black magic is punishable by gunshot (into a free dash again)

you can't use gunshot outside of once in a while or punishes/have to block it situations because it can be black magiced if they duck it.

MB lightning can be jumped on reaction which causes BA to lose a bar and you to advance, if you actually jump it on reaction you will not be hit by the last lightning strike, if you jump on anticipation and are about to be hit by the last strike then J3 will elevate your hitbox.

up close BA wins but in the corner it's very much a reset rape, J3 is great for footsies and so is D2, Adam's backdash does not matter because Joker doesn't really punish them anyways, the distance he goes helps in cornering him and you don't have to deal with divekick out of the corner shenanigans because of Joker's awesome hitboxes on J2/3/D2.

It's a very patient match but I played Subzero in MK9 and have no problem with it relying on waiting and taking advantage of bad moves. Let me know in how you see it from your point, your Joker is one of the best I hear.

 

[Qwark28]

The two characters, I disagree the most are Green Lantern and Batman. Green Lantern is more of a 5-5 matchup and batman at worst is 4-6.

Batman I have discussed with UFG and we've agreed to 4 6 after I reconsidered it.

GL is in no way 5-5 considering Joker can't jump, D2 is dangerous to use, he can't J3/J2 and B13 controls space + his OTGs and his coinflip vortex. He can zone you better, keep a lifelead better and open you up better considering he has actual mixups. That's what a good GL would do.

 

[Qwark28]

I also want to add for BA - his backdash can be punished by J3/2 as well, the scenario I refer to is J3ing in at + and having him backdash away.

With 0.5s this MU IMO would be 6.5-3.5 not that easy, not that horrible.

 

[lorenzo]

Joker can't be zone by lantern gun punishes the startup or recovery or the missiles. You can hold it to punish air missiles. You gets two free dashes if he jumps and air missiles. When Joker knocks down lantern, He has no reliable way to escape the setups. In my opinion Joker wins full screen and close range. Lantern wins mid screen. Keep in mind your gun, sweep, super, and jump will punish midscreen lantern might on block.

 

[Qwark28]

Joker can't be zone by lantern gun punishes the startup or recovery or the missiles. You can hold it to punish air missiles. You gets two free dashes if he jumps and air missiles. When Joker knocks down lantern, He has no reliable way to escape the setups. In my opinion Joker wins full screen and close range. Lantern wins mid screen. Keep in mind your gun, sweep, super, and jump will punish midscreen lantern might on block.

You can't punish the startup of oa's rocket because it's faster than gunshot on startup, on whiff it's only punishable at mid distance.

You can not hold gun to punish air missiles if they're done properly, no GL will do air rocket from a point where you can get your gun out, hold it and punish.

What setups exactly? Midscreen the only setups Joker has are the ambiguous crossup sweep which sacrifices damage and wallcarry and the B3 far teeth step forward 50/50 as well as the tech roll setup Cat found. And how will you open up lantern when you have no more footsie tools? How do you not deal with B13? You cannot jump, something this character was designed to do, don't have any reaching blockstrings, D3 on block is liftable and D2 is not that great without J3.

The only time Joker wins fullscreen is when he has the lead, midscreen and close range he does not have any advantage over lantern.

Why would lantern do lift on block? How do you deal when he has you in OTGs where has has huge + and his knockdown vortex? Even before all his OTGs were found we were all agreeing GL being a bad MU.

 

[lorenzo]

You can either end your combos with 323 first hit teeth, f21. If they do missile up close they will get punish by d2 and gun. If they do it far range you get in. Jump missiles close to joker equals a knock down. Joker has more setups than those posted by Cat. The only time he will shine when hits joker or at the midscreen range, but for him to do that he has to take a risk. B1 to 3 or 2 can be parry or backdash.

If you block them you can punish the missile frame trap with a dash, you can punish the minigun with a jump if they do trait cancel. He is going to have the same trouble opening you that you are having, and both characters benefit a lot after they land a hit.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

I have played this matchup at least over 1000 times with my fellow clanmate, EMP Dark, and have beaten quite a few solid Jokers in tourney.

Superman vs. Joker is 7-3. This is coming from one of the few Supermans that actually relies on pure zoning in 90% of my matchups (95% in the Joker matchup), Superman can zone Joker just fine.

When you're at fullscreen and do an air laser halfway or lower to the ground, Joker cannot punish it. When Superman traits up, he can chip Joker out disgustingly bad with this strategy. Sure Joker can try to close in on Superman to have room to punish an air laser, but Superman has an amazing backdash and can run away very well. (the backdash can somewhat be used an option select when Joker does a gunshot to avoid it while you're running away) When Joker's gun whiffs, Superman has all day to air laser punish it.

Spamming gun shot at Superman is a bad idea to begin with because once Superman's feet leave the ground and you do a gunshot, Superman will punish you on whiff with air laser (God help you if he's traited up and has meter, bye bye 18% life). To be fair, if Superman is around 60% in the air, Joker can gunshot punish on a read. But when he air lasers, he kind of moves his feet back which can actually avoid a gunshot. This is a double edged sword for Joker because the gunshot heavily pushes Superman back on a punish.

Now that Joker has to respect Superman's feet leaving the ground, this open up Superman to be able to throw out a ground laser/straight laser or two in the ground game.

Yes, it "has like 1000 frame start up and is easy to see coming yadayadayada" , but that's why we Superman players don't spam that just as much as Joker players don't spam ground gun. Its to keep both opponents in check.

As far as CQC game goes, Joker's jump back 3 is a very good option select to avoid incoming f23s. Superman can straight laser punish a jumpback 3 on a read though (which is also a good strategy against Deathstroke's jumpback 3).

Also, just because your opponent has a standing 1 to punish F23 doesn't necessarily mean that's a good thing. Almost every character has that. Superman players will be aware of this and will be baiting a whiff punish, since F23 is arguably the best normal whiff punisher in the game. (F23breathf23breath is like sooooo April 17th, 2013).

Superman players should have positional awareness, since all this zoning yadada said above will eventually push us into the corner. Lets just try to assume that corner in said stage has no options to get us out. If Superman reads that you're trying to jumping in after a teeth setup, he can rising grab. Obviously you can turtle around and bait this, but I've seen myself sometimes backdash out of a teeth setup everytime Dark tries to duck and bait a rising grab punish.

I don't know too much about Jokers corner game but I know its still something to be reckoned with, which is why this matchup isn't 8-2 or 9-1 or 10-0. But I will say this. We are Superman, we have the tools to run away, we have the tools to keep Joker out, we have the meterbuilding to keep MB lasers stocked up for nasty chip damage and making our mistimed air lasers make us come out safely. We have the trait to chip Joker out faster than you can say "I'm going to corner you in this match". We have the options to select stages that give us "Get off me" options in the corner. We have the F23 to bait whiffed normals and dash ins.

We shouldn't succumb to Joker's corner game or even let Joker knock us down in CQC to begin with.

 

[Qwark28]

I have played this matchup at least over 1000 times with my fellow clanmate, EMP Dark, and have beaten quite a few solid Jokers in tourney.

Superman vs. Joker is 7-3. This is coming from one of the few Supermans that actually relies on pure zoning in 90% of my matchups (95% in the Joker matchup), Superman can zone Joker just fine.

When you're at fullscreen and do an air laser halfway or lower to the ground, Joker cannot punish it. When Superman traits up, he can chip Joker out disgustingly bad with this strategy. Sure Joker can try to close in on Superman to have room to punish an air laser, but Superman has an amazing backdash and can run away very well. (the backdash can somewhat be used an option select when Joker does a gunshot to avoid it while you're running away) When Joker's gun whiffs, Superman has all day to air laser punish it.

Spamming gun shot at Superman is a bad idea to begin with because once Superman's feet leave the ground and you do a gunshot, Superman will punish you on whiff with air laser (God help you if he's traited up and has meter, bye bye 18% life). To be fair, if Superman is around 60% in the air, Joker can gunshot punish on a read. But when he air lasers, he kind of moves his feet back which can actually avoid a gunshot. This is a double edged sword for Joker because the gunshot heavily pushes Superman back on a punish.

Now that Joker has to respect Superman's feet leaving the ground, this open up Superman to be able to throw out a ground laser/straight laser or two in the ground game.

Yes, it "has like 1000 frame start up and is easy to see coming yadayadayada" , but that's why we Superman players don't spam that just as much as Joker players don't spam ground gun. Its to keep both opponents in check.

As far as CQC game goes, Joker's jump back 3 is a very good option select to avoid incoming f23s. Superman can straight laser punish a jumpback 3 on a read though (which is also a good strategy against Deathstroke's jumpback 3).

Also, just because your opponent has a standing 1 to punish F23 doesn't necessarily mean that's a good thing. Almost every character has that. Superman players will be aware of this and will be baiting a whiff punish, since F23 is arguably the best normal whiff punisher in the game. (F23breathf23breath is like sooooo April 17th, 2013).

Superman players should have positional awareness, since all this zoning yadada said above will eventually push us into the corner. Lets just try to assume that corner in said stage has no options to get us out. If Superman reads that you're trying to jumping in after a teeth setup, he can rising grab. Obviously you can turtle around and bait this, but I've seen myself sometimes backdash out of a teeth setup everytime Dark tries to duck and bait a rising grab punish.

I don't know too much about Jokers corner game but I know its still something to be reckoned with, which is why this matchup isn't 8-2 or 9-1 or 10-0. But I will say this. We are Superman, we have the tools to run away, we have the tools to keep Joker out, we have the meterbuilding to keep MB lasers stocked up for nasty chip damage and making our mistimed air lasers make us come out safely. We have the trait to chip Joker out faster than you can say "I'm going to corner you in this match". We have the options to select stages that give us "Get off me" options in the corner. We have the F23 to bait whiffed normals and dash ins.

We shouldn't succumb to Joker's corner game or even let Joker knock us down in CQC to begin with.

That is basically my point, when we eliminate ground lasers you go in the air, thus having more recovery frames, the chip is bad but the recovery you have is still giving us a dash ( 2 if you do a laser in the air that gunshots hitbox does not reach )

back jump 3 should not work offline, the pre jump frames are around 4 and you also have the startup of J3 so be aware that you can punish that offline with f23.

Standing 1 is just an option vs repeated f23s, and they WILL happen in every superman match, Joker having the options is good, standing 1 is also 13f on recovery so you cannot punish it on reaction but on a read.

Good shit about rising grab, however there are setups that can beat it.

You do have the tools to run away, almost everyone does, but your tools are require only patience and good blocking to defeat, you have chip but we do advance.

I don't understand how you say you won't succumb to Joker's corner game while you just said you don't know much about it. How do you escape 100% inescapable resets out of 90% of our moves on hit when we have meter ( and we always do ) When Joker gets someone in the corner they WILL die. The corner is not a traditional corner for Joker, the corner is the end and we have 50% stage wallcarry combos to capitalise on it. How have you played Dark so many games and don't know his corner game?

I COULD agree on 7-3 since I have it as 6,5 in Supes favour but I can't ignore our J3, wallcarry, meter building and touch of death when it comes to the corner. What would you reply to this post, I need some more information on what you'd do.

 

[Qwark28]

You can either end your combos with 323 first hit teeth, f21. If they do missile up close they will get punish by d2 and gun. If they do it far range you get in. Jump missiles close to joker equals a knock down. Joker has more setups than those posted by Cat. The only time he will shine when hits joker or at the midscreen range, but for him to do that he has to take a risk. B1 to 3 or 2 can be parry or backdash.

If you block them you can punish the missile frame trap with a dash, you can punish the minigun with a jump if they do trait cancel. He is going to have the same trouble opening you that you are having, and both characters benefit a lot after they land a hit.

323 teeth is tech rollable, far teeth won't reach, same with f21, this is day 1 setups. GLs oki options are not missiles and why the hell would he ever do far missiles on wakeup when you're in his face...?

He will not zone close to joker, get hit with that lift while jumping and say goodbye to 30% and hello to otgs and vortexes.

B13 to 2 is still a guess, guess wrong and you're launched.

Missile trap is only vs people who don't know about it, there's no reason to do it when your opponent knows and can punish you for it, GL will always hit confirm B13 into trait lift on hit and minigun on block

Have you been playing MMs GL lol?

Denzell
THTB
187x
HGTV Soapboxfan

how do you see the matchup.

 

[Flash_Lantern]

Yes, jump 3. You could combo from it from since day 1 and its not an untechable knockdown and it's not a reset lol

combo is j3 323 flower at mid height
B1 flower from high height
D2 mb RLG from high height

The 323 rarely connects. It's unreliable.
And still, catwomens back dash makes jump 3 whiff. Go test it and see for yourself.

 

[THTB]

I don't see how GL-Joker would ever be 5-5, when Joker struggles on every part of the screen vs GL. Joker's zoning game get outmatched pretty fast (yes, you can dash under air oas, but you then leave yourself open for getting randomly jumped in on if the GL reads right), and footsies is an obvious win on GL's part. Also, Joker gets buttfucked on knockdowns...like, if you get touched, you may not be getting back up for the rest of your life bar.

 

[Qwark28]

The 323 rarely connects. It's unreliable.
And still, catwomens back dash makes jump 3 whiff. Go test it and see for yourself.

Only on small hitbox chars, from any height B1 will always connect, as you're coming down 212 and 323 will connect on medium hitbox chars from my experience.

Catwoman backdash will only make J3 whiff if you move at the same time, e.g you jump and she backdashes at the same time, any small delay the make a deep J3 and a semi-deep J1 connect so you can punish the CW that does this to you.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

That is basically my point, when we eliminate ground lasers you go in the air, thus having more recovery frames, the chip is bad but the recovery you have is still giving us a dash ( 2 if you do a laser in the air that gunshots hitbox does not reach )



I don't understand how you say you won't succumb to Joker's corner game while you just said you don't know much about it. How do you escape 100% inescapable resets out of 90% of our moves on hit when we have meter ( and we always do ) When Joker gets someone in the corner they WILL die. The corner is not a traditional corner for Joker, the corner is the end and we have 50% stage wallcarry combos to capitalise on it. How have you played Dark so many games and don't know his corner game?
I COULD agree on 7-3 since I have it as 6,5 in Supes favour but I can't ignore our J3, wallcarry, meter building and touch of death when it comes to the corner. What would you reply to this post, I need some more information on what you'd do.

My 7-3 is obviously subject to change as well, hence my admitting that I don't know his full corner game (though I am fully aware that its a touch of death). I mostly just based that matchup number on my ability to always run away and look for whiff punishes. The best I can reply after my summary is that we'd simply need to run long sets (damn region locked PSN).

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

Dark has specific set of teeth setups he likes to do, which is why I said I don't know all of them, only that based off the one Joker I play long sets with. My 7-3 is obviously subject to change as well, hence my admitting that I don't know his full corner game (though I am fully aware that its a touch of death). I mostly just based that matchup number on my ability to always run away and look for whiff punishes. The best I can reply after my summary is that we'd simply need to run long sets (damn region locked PSN).

 

[Flash_Lantern]

Only on small hitbox chars, from any height B1 will always connect, as you're coming down 212 and 323 will connect on medium hitbox chars from my experience.

Catwoman backdash will only make J3 whiff if you move at the same time, e.g you jump and she backdashes at the same time, any small delay the make a deep J3 and a semi-deep J1 connect so you can punish the CW that does this to you.

Thats my point. Catwomen has a small hitbox, extra so when she backdashes, so she can shut down a lot of Jokers options. That was my point the whole time lol

 

[Qwark28]

My 7-3 is obviously subject to change as well, hence my admitting that I don't know his full corner game (though I am fully aware that its a touch of death). I mostly just based that matchup number on my ability to always run away and look for whiff punishes. The best I can reply after my summary is that we'd simply need to run long sets (damn region locked PSN).

I wish we could, I know Dark is one of the best Jokers so I'll take your word until we can see perhaps a different Joker playstyle. Changing the MU number right now.

 

[Qwark28]

Thats my point. Catwomen has a small hitbox, extra so when she backdashes, so she can shut down a lot of Jokers options. That was my point the whole time lol

How does she shut his options down when all you need to do differently is wait for 5 more frames or so before you J3 lol. You can still blow up the backdash on a read, you can still jump in on her just like on 90% of the cast.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Is this chart suppose to convince people that The Joker is a bad character

 

[Qwark28]

Is this chart suppose to convince people that The Joker is a bad character

Bad in this game is nowhere near as bad as in MK9.

Subzero's MU chart looked almost the same with a few more 5-5s and he was considered 19-21th out of 31 characters.

 

[THTB]

Also, Joker touch of death setups? Holy shit. That sounds like some T.Hawk shit in ST.

 

[YOMI DJT]

gl joker bad for joker for now. But joker can do something if he knocks gl down aha

 

[lorenzo]

If they tech roll, you can punish them and in no moment I said Green Lantern missiles are used as oki. F21 will punish all of deathstroke wake ups but I haven't seen any one use it. You use a different variation of the f21 and 323.