Match-up Discussion My Joker matchup chart

[Qwark28]

lol

feel free to provide explanations, considering this is a matchup discussion thread.

 

[Vagrant]

Deathstroke does actually do alot of zoning in this matchup. Mainly because joker has a really hard time getting in. Lowshot goes under jokers gun, air shot does well keeping him out of the air. Once joker gets in (about that close ish-midscreen range he has to worry about weather I'm going to)

A) Dash in d1 mb spin flip (Hard Knockdown, starts DS oki or zoning)
B) f3 (+10 if blocked and leads into his 50/50's)
C) Dash in throw
D) Jump in 1/3 jump 1 to preemptively stuff a joker j3, jump 3 will give DS enough advantage to go for whatever string or normal he wants or

If i'm not liking the spacing or the angle of attack I can simply jump back 3 for a little breathing room, that move is practically a sheild.

DS wins this because he can keep joker out in a zoning war and because of this the DS player knows joker has to come in. Joker has to play DS's game. Which is: shoot the shit out of them until they get about quarter screen and then choose how you want to attack, rinse, repeat. Yes joker does good damage when he gets in, but DS controls the neutral game and wins the zoning war.

6-4 Deathstroke in my opinion at least.

 

[Qwark28]

^ discussed this and a final MU number is pending until we get some sets in.

 

[Flash_Lantern]

It's really hard to put numbers to a match up, I get that, but some of these I just think are wrong:

Bane 5-5? Joker doesn't have any two hitting moves so Bane can just armour thru. I would say it's more like 6-4 for Bane.
You have Raven and Cyrbog as possibles even? Joker loses against zoners, both of those match ups are 6-4 against Joker.
Deathstroke 5-5? No way! That's a 7-3 for DS for sure.
Catwomen 5-5? No way, her back dash is way to good. She can just back dash any of the Joker's cross up/ jump ins and her dash makes her hit box so small that Jokers jump 2 will just whiff.
And I don't see how Joker beats Scorpion, even maybe. but 6-4? No.

Other then those match ups, pretty good job.

 

[Qwark28]

It's really hard to put numbers to a match up, I get that, but some of these I just think are wrong:

Bane 5-5? Joker doesn't have any two hitting moves so Bane can just armour thru. I would say it's more like 6-4 for Bane.
You have Raven and Cyrbog as possibles even? Joker loses against zoners, both of those match ups are 6-4 against Joker.
Deathstroke 5-5? No way! That's a 7-3 for DS for sure.
Catwomen 5-5? No way, her back dash is way to good. She can just back dash any of the Joker's cross up/ jump ins and her dash makes her hit box so small that Jokers jump 2 will just whiff.
And I don't see how Joker beats Scorpion, even maybe. but 6-4? No.

Other then those match ups, pretty good job.

joker has teeth vs bane.

how do you know joker loses? do you play joker? deathstroke is in no way 7 3 and you didnt even provide an explanation for deathstroke, catwoman and scorpion, how do you expect to be taken seriously? not a single deathstroke out of 4-5 ive spoken to about joker has said anything more than 6-4 5-5

catwoman can not backdash a j3 from up close, noone in the cast except BA can.
raven and cyborg are solid 6 4s, i ve played multiple ravens of differing playstyles and i play her myself.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I agree with the Hawkgirl numbers... Also Zatanna is even with him

 

[Qwark28]

I agree with the Hawkgirl numbers... Also Zatanna is even with him

Can you explain why Zatanna is even? I've played AK Black Preon 's Zatanna and it did feel dead even considering she has no mixups but not more than a couple of sets overall, I know nothing of the character past the basics.

 

[LEGEND]

only 4-6 to Superman. . . .

*leaves thread*

 

[Qwark28]

only 4-6 to Superman. . . .

*leaves thread*

I don't feel he's as bad as the others, Joker can full combo punish f23 attempts with standing 1, he doesn't allow superman to zone at all because of his gunshot, same as harley. Only advantage superman has is f23 and corner damage which can be reversed if Joker gets a combo going, and his combos are 100% in the corner instead of 70.

 

[Qwark28]

One more thing, Joker's d1 does not cause ANY pushback on Superman, in the corner D1 is an infinite unless you just frame a MB B3/F3 or backdash mb f3/b3. Midscreen he can backdash freely but you can read that and J2/3 for a combo.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Can you explain why Zatanna is even? I've played AK Black Preon 's Zatanna and it did feel dead even considering she has no mixups but not more than a couple of sets overall, I know nothing of the character past the basics.

Yes! That's one of the match ups that i play the most! With EMP_Dark
The only think you need to know is to punish her... Since Joker's projectile is so fast we can't zone him (Zatanna's game consist on keep away & meter build... So if we can't play a keep away game we must get in... Getting in with Zatanna Means taking a lot of risk, teleports are punisheable, she is safe IF she spends a bar on every blocked move -___- slow normals)
Just make her come to you (she most likely will do it with a teleport) wait for teleport & punish. She can also mb her tele but you can neutral jump it. Even tho Zatanna's meter build on this MU is not that good. Zatanna without meter is ught. Also trying to zone Joker would be dumb shince he can punish backwards teleport & rings with gunshot.

 

[Qwark28]

Yes! That's one of the match ups that i play the most! With EMP_Dark
The only think you need to know is to punish her... Since Joker's projectile is so fast we can't zone him (Zatanna's game consist on keep away & meter build... So if we can't play a keep away game we must get in... Getting in with Zatanna Means taking a lot of risk, teleports are punisheable, she is safe IF she spends a bar on every blocked move -___- slow normals)
Just make her come to you (she most likely will do it with a teleport) wait for teleport & punish. She can also mb her tele but you can neutral jump it. Even tho Zatanna's meter build on this MU is not that good. Zatanna without meter is ught. Also trying to zone Joker would be dumb shince he can punish backwards teleport & rings.

Exactly the experience I've had, gonna add Zatanna now.

 

[LEGEND]

I don't feel he's as bad as the others, Joker can full combo punish f23 attempts with standing 1, he doesn't allow superman to zone at all because of his gunshot, same as harley. Only advantage superman has is f23 and corner damage which can be reversed if Joker gets a combo going, and his combos are 100% in the corner instead of 70.

being able to punish F23 is something nearly every character has and only really factor's into Superman favor if you try it. Superman doesn't need to repeat F23 over and over in you face to create pressure, one wiffed normal and you're done

i wouldn't compare corner games when its nearly impossible for joker to ever corner Superman let alone keep him there

Superman's wake-up game gives Joker's Set-ups problems

Joker really has no space control vs Superman unless he want's to take pretty big risks, where as Superman never has to take any risk. . .ever

Superman's D2 is also a pretty good AA so joker has to space a JI3 to even make use of his air game, which will lose to a air to air Ji1 from supes or get trip guarded if supes just decides to walk back when you enter that space

 

[Qwark28]

being able to punish F23 is something nearly every character has and only really factor's into Superman favor if you try it. Superman doesn't need to repeat F23 over and over in you face to create pressure, one wiffed normal and you're done

i wouldn't compare corner games when its nearly impossible for joker to ever corner Superman let alone keep him there

Superman's wake-up game gives Joker's Set-ups problems

Joker really has no space control vs Superman unless he want's to take pretty big risks, where as Superman never has to take any risk. . .ever

Superman's D2 is also a pretty good AA so joker has to space a JI3 to even make use of his air game, which will lose to a air to air Ji1 from supes or get trip guarded if supes just decides to walk back when you enter that space

you have a way to punish f23, thats what matters, you don't have to do so, it's a guessing game where you both get combos.

Joker can corner Superman, I don't see how he can't when one combo is half a stage of wallcarry.

J3 is fine space control, it's +9 on block before it reaches max height which is about 20f or so, from the distance where it's supposed to be used it even beats air grabs so S3 is no problem.

Of course J3 can whiff, it does have huge range though, everyone can make it whiff and punish it although I see how Superman has a much easier time doing so.

I feel that Joker has much better wallcarry, outdamages superman in the corner and eliminates his zoning, F23 is my only real concern.

 

[Flash_Lantern]

joker has teeth vs bane.

how do you know joker loses? do you play joker? deathstroke is in no way 7 3 and you didnt even provide an explanation for deathstroke, catwoman and scorpion, how do you expect to be taken seriously? not a single deathstroke out of 4-5 ive spoken to about joker has said anything more than 6-4 5-5

catwoman can not backdash a j3 from up close, noone in the cast except BA can.
raven and cyborg are solid 6 4s, i ve played multiple ravens of differing playstyles and i play her myself.

I do play Joker, I main him and Shazam. I've been playing Joker since the game came out. Deathstroke definitely wins that match up out right. Joker has no zoning tools, if you shot the gun deathstroke can just do low gun shots all day and win the trade. The bottom line is that Deathstroke just has more tools to keep you out then Joker has for getting in. Hence a bad match up.

When you play Scorpion you play his style, meaning you just block low waiting to punish his teleport, any match up thats decided like that is a bad match up or even. I would say it's a 5-5, but it's hard to say Joker beats him out right. After a knock down scorpion can just wake up teleport and avoid any of Jokers pressure, so you stuck with wait and punish, playing right into the Scorpion players style.

Catwomen I already explained, so what if she can't dash a jump 3, what do you get from that? She totally avoids any cross up from Jokers jump 2, which leads to most of the Jokers damage.

 

[Qwark28]

I do play Joker, I main him and Shazam. I've been playing Joker since the game came out. Deathstroke definitely wins that match up out right. Joker has no zoning tools, if you shot the gun deathstroke can just do low gun shots all day and win the trade. The bottom line is that Deathstroke just has more tools to keep you out then Joker has for getting in. Hence a bad match up.

When you play Scorpion you play his style, meaning you just block low waiting to punish his teleport, any match up thats decided like that is a bad match up or even. I would say it's a 5-5, but it's hard to say Joker beats him out right. After a knock down scorpion can just wake up teleport and avoid any of Jokers pressure, so you stuck with wait and punish, playing right into the Scorpion players style.

Catwomen I already explained, so what if she can't dash a jump 3, what do you get from that? She totally avoids any cross up from Jokers jump 2, which leads to most of the Jokers damage.

you wont zone deathstroke with guns all day, youll zone him enough to start doing some low gunshots, when he does, dash in and get in simple. the fact that you think his zoning is the problem and not just an added tool of his tells me you dont know his close up game, he doesnt keep people out, he has up close tools as well.

again, if you read my posts youd see scorpion need 2-3 combos just to make up for one of jokers, and he needs meter for that. i dont understand whats wrong with baiting and punishing teleports lol. and no, you dont just block low all day, if you play the matchup wrong then it probably feels worse than it is. and if playing the other guys game is how matchups are decided then BA loses to aquaman because he has to bait out trident...

she does not avoid a crossup.

joker gets 30%-36% off of a j3, this is basic knowledge, jokers best footsie tool and you ask what he gets off of it?

 

[Espio]

I agree with Hawkgirl winning 6-4 versus Joker.

Also, no Martian Manhunter?

 

[Qwark28]

I agree with Hawkgirl winning 6-4 versus Joker.

Also, no Martian Manhunter?

I have no XP vs MMH.

 

[Espio]

I have no XP vs MMH.

Fair enough, wasn't sure if it was an oversight or not. Thanks .

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I dropped Catwoman. But i totally agree on the Catwoman numbers as well... I used her for a very long time

 

[Flash_Lantern]

joker gets 30%-36% off of a j3, this is basic knowledge, jokers best footsie tool and you ask what he gets off of it?

Joker gets 30% of a jump 3? So joker jumps, catwomens on the ground, the jump 3 hits her, and somehow Joker gets 30%??? I wasn't talking about air to air, I was talking about her back dash, so hence shes on the ground.

 

[Espio]

I dropped Catwoman. But i totally agree on the Catwoman numbers as well... I used her for a very long time

Noes ;___;.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Noes ;___;.

She is too much patience for me ;__;

 

[Qwark28]

Joker gets 30% of a jump 3? So joker jumps, catwomens on the ground, the jump 3 hits her, and somehow Joker gets 30%??? I wasn't talking about air to air, I was talking about her back dash, so hence shes on the ground.

Yes, on the ground. You don't have to A2A to combo.

 

[Flash_Lantern]

Yes, on the ground. You don't have to A2A to combo.

You need to explain that?
I'm talking about jump 3 (the crowbar) not jump 2. Jump 3, which gives you a hard knock down how can you combo off of that? Whit out throwing out teeth, cause that doesn't combo, thats a reset.