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"Must I remind you of my superiority?" - Lex Luthor General Discussion (Version 1.06)

Galactic Geek

Losing is learning; winning is succeeding.
Oh okay, but that's with armor. I thought you meant he couldn't do a wakeup to try to escape the mine.
Any character can perform at least 1 wake-up that will escape the gravity mine. What I hate about it is that the gravity mine has a tendency to disappear when they do this (I don't think it should). In any case, if you're playing an average to low-level player, you likely won't need to worry about them countering the gravity mine (because they won't know how) & can punish them accordingly. However, against higher-level players, you need to play it safe & anticipate that they'll either block the mine or perform a wake-up attack (tech rolls won't work at all & although many supers will, it's usually considered impractical to waste all of that meter, so you won't usually see that happen often; just the same, be prepared if they have full meter). So, you've essentially got a built in 50/50 since your opponent has exactly 2 options (block low or wake-up). If you have Lex's shield trait activated, this is a no-brainer because then your opponent only has 1 real option (a fast, multi-hitting wake-up - which most of the cast doesn't have); with the shield trait, you can take the hit from the wake-up & perform a full-combo punish - I recommend an overhead like b2, f2, or f3 to hit them in case they block low. So, with trait, even if they avoid the mine, they're still most likely going to get hit. If they block low, as long as you do any of the aforementioned overhead attacks, you can still full-combo punish (especially if you have meter, which you should). Regardless, as long as you have trait, Lex will almost always have the advantage.

However, if you don't have the shield trait activated, it becomes an entirely different story - your opponent still has the same 2 choices to avoid the gravity mine (wake-up or block low). However, if you don't have the shield trait activated, you have 3 choices - 1) risk getting hit by a wake-up by doing an overhead attack in case they block low, 2) block in case of a wake-up & then punish but lose an opportunity if they block low, or 3) MB f3 or b3. Of those 3, I recommend the latter (if you have meter); it's relatively safe even without trait, because it can defeat many 1-hitting wake-ups & the f3 in particular can also defeat the low block. So, there are still ways around not having trait, but it's more dangerous. If you don't have trait or meter to burn, I'd recommend the 2nd option - block, then punish because even if you're wrong & the opponent blocks low instead, it leaves both players in a relatively neutral state rather than the alternative - you getting punished by a wake-up.

To my knowledge, characters that have fast, multi-hitting wake-ups that can beat this insanely wonderful setup include: Flash (actually whiffs, but it gets him out of danger), Nightwing, Batgirl, & probably a couple of others I'm forgetting. Feel free to share who else may fall under this list.

Lex is a smart character & as long as you're a smart player, you'll do just fine...
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I just want to throw this out there:

Learn to backdash.

I know that every character benefits from well timed backdashes, but Lex gets exponentially more since as we all know we can cancel our trait charge with a backdash. This basically means that with proper timing we get armor for free.

Now obviously, we can't backdash everything, much less do so consistently. That said from full screen a majority of this game's projectiles can be backdashed, allowing you to start charging trait, wait to see if they do a projectile and backdash on reaction.

For some characters this is doable with normals too at certain ranges. I was playing a WW in a local tournament yesterday and by the end of the 2nd set I was able to start charging trait right at the edge of her lasso range and backdash the lasso to safety (Or at least until the guy found out that tiara beat that out).


But yeah... practice backdashing; especially for projectiles that are easy to see coming, for free armor charges.
 

Galactic Geek

Losing is learning; winning is succeeding.
WW loses to Lex - her only tool capable of dealing with his zoning is her tiara, which is weak. Her air-dash attacks can easily be blocked or avoided & her regular air-dash can be countered with u3 & a free Lex probe.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I played a pretty good WW this weekend in tournament and that matchup honestly felt dead even to me.

She is extremely good at keeping pressure on you to prevent you from setting things up and any time she hits you your losing a huge chunk of health.

That said, she does seem to have trouble dealing with armor in either stance and probes give her quite a bit of trouble in lasso stance, as do mines (Assuming she gives you enough time to get them out).
Also at the edge of Lasso range you can trait up backdash to avoid the whole attack and corpse charge punish (I didn't think to check if vacuum would hit. That move has more range than I think it does.). Now she can hit with MB tiara (Can she combo off of that? I think so but the guy I played didn't so IDK) to blow that up, but if she does that and you forward dash through the 1st hit you can blow that up with full combo before it hits you a second time.

But yeah this MU really seems to depend on whether or not WW can pressure you enough to keep you from using trait because once you have trait up she has trouble dealing with that.

Personally I was taking her to fortress so that I could use the laser to combo into a mine, then set up armor and probes while it holds him in place (Hitstun deterioration is so bad after that laser>mine thing that it's not even worth comboing off of).
 

Spacepopsicle

Cool Beans
Personally I was taking her to fortress so that I could use the laser to combo into a mine, then set up armor and probes while it holds him in place (Hitstun deterioration is so bad after that laser>mine thing that it's not even worth comboing off of).
I love you so much right now.
 
So I was messing around with the corner-probe-vortex.

Usually, the only way to combo off a low-starter is to use meter, while the overhead starter is meterless.

There's a way to have a low-meterless starter for the corner-probe vortex though. If instead of your mixup being f2/b13, you use d3 as your low, you can get a full combo off a d3 that is followed up by a probe hit.

I haven't optimized damage, but what I can get easily so far is d3 (probe hit) 11, 11, u3 xx Probe (end with probe or shields to continue corner-vortex). It's only 20 % if you end it with a safe probe/shields though- might be able to get more damage off it, but that's what I've got so far. Pretty good for a meterless low starter I guess.

The kicker is in order to combo off the d3, you need to do it earlier than normal so the probe hits afterwards, keeping them in the air for the followup. Normally you would wait for the probe to hit to ensure you are at +20 and the opponent isn't mashing to get out. However in most cases they should be anticipating Lex will wait for the probe to hit so there shouldn't be an issue getting a d3 early.
 

Ok, so part of backdashes in this game are invincibility frames, where you can't be hit out of the start of your backdash.

For Lex, I think this has alot of potential, since he can back-dash cancel his shields. If you time it right, you can get level 3 shields under a barrage of projectiles at full screen where you normally could not.

In the video I use Sinestro as a subject, but this isn't really anti-Sinestro tech, he just happened to be the practice dummy I chose. He could probably MB his projectiles and that might hit Lex out of this, but then again Lex might be able to finish his backdash and block in time to keep his shields as well.

The awesome thing is the timing is actual super-easy lol. I did it three times in a row in that video.

This might be super-good against a Raven full-screen. Maybe even against Cyborg.


*** edit ***

tried it against cyborg, and could not get this to work against his IAFB. It might be possible and that I'm just not timing it correctly, but the timing would be super-strict otherwise.

Against Raven it is possible, but a bit harder to time than Sinestro. Because her projectile moves slower, sometimes it will hit you from behind at the end of the invincibility frames- so you need to be more careful with the timing. It appears the reason this is easy against Sinestro is his projectile is fast enough that it will go through Lex fast enough that it won't hit him at the end of the invincibility frames so long as you have even mediocre timing.

It might well be worth the risk, since with level 3 shields, you take no chip damage, allowing you to turtle out if the round is almost over and you have the life lead :)
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
^
lol, I mentioned this last page, but yeah, we need to start doing this more.


It's easier against some characters than others. It is doable against Cyborg but it's weird since the timing on his ground and IAFB blasts are different. Also I couldn't backdash his diagonal MB blasts at all.

Supes lasers are really really easy to backdash. The straight laser can be backdashed when you hear supes grunt and the other one is pretty easy to see.

Batman's batarangs are backdashable but it's really really REALLY hard to do. More often than not I ended up backdashing one and and having the second one knock off armor.

GL's Oa's rockets are medium difficulty. I've played him enough that I can backdash it fairly consistently though. Have to backdash right as it's about to hit your chest.


Some normals can be baited with shield and backdashed as well. The most effective of these seems to be WW's overhead lasso. Stand at the edge of that range and charge shield. If you think she'll lasso (Most do) backdash and if she's mixing in tiara to knock off armor and hit, dash forward to take the 1st hit then punish before the second. Both of these options allow a corpse charge punish.

GL's slide is harder to bait since it comes out so fast, but you can do it against that move as well, and same with his lift. Those moves require a good read and some luck though.




On a completely different note, found another 50-50 reset.

You do want armor for this.

After they hit a mine (Or that rare moment when you B3 off of a MB probe) do: B3>j2>22>MB vacuum>B2>far mine.
They come out of hitstun right as you place the mine, then do 22d1 or 22b3 then dash forward and do another combo.

It's nothing game breaking (Sadly haven't found a way to turn this into an earthshaker type reset...) but it is useful.
 
Supes lasers are really really easy to backdash. The straight laser can be backdashed when you hear supes grunt and the other one is pretty easy to see.
This is a fantastic cue. Tried doing this in practice and I got it 9 out of 10 times lol.

It will help alot now that I can get shields up against Superbitch at full screen.
 
I just want to throw this out there:

Learn to backdash.

I know that every character benefits from well timed backdashes, but Lex gets exponentially more since as we all know we can cancel our trait charge with a backdash. This basically means that with proper timing we get armor for free.

Now obviously, we can't backdash everything, much less do so consistently. That said from full screen a majority of this game's projectiles can be backdashed, allowing you to start charging trait, wait to see if they do a projectile and backdash on reaction.

For some characters this is doable with normals too at certain ranges. I was playing a WW in a local tournament yesterday and by the end of the 2nd set I was able to start charging trait right at the edge of her lasso range and backdash the lasso to safety (Or at least until the guy found out that tiara beat that out).


But yeah... practice backdashing; especially for projectiles that are easy to see coming, for free armor charges.
I've been messing with this alot and it's crazy what you get from it.

Against Flash, it allows you to get a free shield off of BOTH the low and overhead version of Lex's 22[b3/d1] 50/50

22d1 easily gives free shields against flash as always, since his lightning charge won't go the distance if you backdash cancel, and it becomes a full punish on Flash.

22d3- if you trait up as soon as you can, and then backdash as soon as you can out of trait, Flash's lightning charge ghosts right through Lex, and he ends up behind a fully-traited Lex.

The timing is 100 percent consistent, trait up as soon as possible, and backdash as soon as possible, and 10 out of 10 times it works. Even if he tech rolls- the tech roll causes Flash to do the wakeup sooner, however, it puts him at a bit further distance so there's more travel time- hence either option reaches Lex exactly during the invincibility frames of his trait-backdash.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I've been messing with this alot and it's crazy what you get from it.

Against Flash, it allows you to get a free shield off of BOTH the low and overhead version of Lex's 22[b3/d1] 50/50

22d1 easily gives free shields against flash as always, since his lightning charge won't go the distance if you backdash cancel, and it becomes a full punish on Flash.

22d3- if you trait up as soon as you can, and then backdash as soon as you can out of trait, Flash's lightning charge ghosts right through Lex, and he ends up behind a fully-traited Lex.

The timing is 100 percent consistent, trait up as soon as possible, and backdash as soon as possible, and 10 out of 10 times it works. Even if he tech rolls- the tech roll causes Flash to do the wakeup sooner, however, it puts him at a bit further distance so there's more travel time- hence either option reaches Lex exactly during the invincibility frames of his trait-backdash.
That is going to be really helpful. Flash was a character I couldn't seem to get armor up against. Thank you very much for this!
 
Step 1, go into practice mode: Lex vs Flash
Step 2, set the AI Flash to "block = always" and "reversal = lightning charge"
Step 3, do b1 xx trait xx backdash
Step 4, do 21 xx trait xx backdash

It requires pretty much no timing at all on your part, if the Flash player does a lightning charge reversal he ghosts directly through you, just like with the 22b3. The difference here is it isn't even required that you hit in order to get the free shields- this is completely safe on block.

The pushback from 21 and b1 at most distances where you do the string will put Lex out of d1/d2/d3 range for certain characters, so he can't be poked out of this.

But the dirtiest part of that isn't just getting level 3 shields- it's when the opponent knows he/she has no good options if you do that, and has to just turtle it out. That's when you can start mixing it up by canceling 21 into Lance Blast- hold the charge: if they show any signs of movement, release a level 2 on them and get a free hard knockdown with Corp Charge, or a free probe.

I found for Batman, if you do a 21 xx Lance Blast Charge from a decent distance, on block you can hold the charge until Batman does something, and react to pretty much anything he can do at that range. The stuff that is too quick to react to- such as d1 and d3, he is out of range and can't hit you with.

Basically, for any characters where Lex can abuse the shit out of 21 xx trait-backdash, training them to respect it and not react immediately leaves you room to mix them up with 21 xx Lance Blast (level 2 or level 3 if they don't react.)

Another character that has ZERO options against this: Superman. His quickest response to 21 xx trait backdash: f23, will ghost through Lex's backdash if Supes tries it as an immediate followup. And Supes has nothing else he can use to poke Lex out of it.
 

Spacepopsicle

Cool Beans
Step 1, go into practice mode: Lex vs Flash
Step 2, set the AI Flash to "block = always" and "reversal = lightning charge"
Step 3, do b1 xx trait xx backdash
Step 4, do 21 xx trait xx backdash

It requires pretty much no timing at all on your part, if the Flash player does a lightning charge reversal he ghosts directly through you, just like with the 22b3. The difference here is it isn't even required that you hit in order to get the free shields- this is completely safe on block.

The pushback from 21 and b1 at most distances where you do the string will put Lex out of d1/d2/d3 range for certain characters, so he can't be poked out of this.

But the dirtiest part of that isn't just getting level 3 shields- it's when the opponent knows he/she has no good options if you do that, and has to just turtle it out. That's when you can start mixing it up by canceling 21 into Lance Blast- hold the charge: if they show any signs of movement, release a level 2 on them and get a free hard knockdown with Corp Charge, or a free probe.

I found for Batman, if you do a 21 xx Lance Blast Charge from a decent distance, on block you can hold the charge until Batman does something, and react to pretty much anything he can do at that range. The stuff that is too quick to react to- such as d1 and d3, he is out of range and can't hit you with.

Basically, for any characters where Lex can abuse the shit out of 21 xx trait-backdash, training them to respect it and not react immediately leaves you room to mix them up with 21 xx Lance Blast (level 2 or level 3 if they don't react.)

Another character that has ZERO options against this: Superman. His quickest response to 21 xx trait backdash: f23, will ghost through Lex's backdash if Supes tries it as an immediate followup. And Supes has nothing else he can use to poke Lex out of it.
is this tech on hit or block? cause I am 155% free to the average SM, I cannot fight him at all and this may help
 

Spacepopsicle

Cool Beans
On both hit and block. Supes cant hit you with F23, d1,d2 or d3. You get the shields free.

Ive got video but youtube is down for some reason and I cant upload anything at the moment.
good! man I tell you everytime I play supes he does his stupid laser zoning which is amazing vs Lex, then he gets you in the corner for 50% with OTG reset, mean while I'm sitting here thinking "yea fuck you and your 'normalized' character"... I really hate supes MU
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
good! man I tell you everytime I play supes he does his stupid laser zoning which is amazing vs Lex, then he gets you in the corner for 50% with OTG reset, mean while I'm sitting here thinking "yea fuck you and your 'normalized' character"... I really hate supes MU
His zoning is actually really easy to backdash. Lets you get shield from full screen fairly easily. I wrote the tells for it last page.
 

Spacepopsicle

Cool Beans
His zoning is actually really easy to backdash. Lets you get shield from full screen fairly easily. I wrote the tells for it last page.
Yea i know after reading that I even went into to training to practice it a bit, didn't work out so well online and when I did get it, he traits up jumps ground laser I block and it still breaks shields, fuck it right