Mortal Kombat (2011) Matchup Chart

[TheChad_87]

Good stuff Nori, my interest is piqued. Let's get some good hearted games in! I'm out in the west coast, so if that's an issue, do you know any NWs out here on PS3? Oops, I'm derailing...

Try not to think of it as holding upback the whole time. Think of it as footsies without footsies. Sektor can jump back, dash back, jump back, dash forward, jump forward, SEEMINGLY at random. At any time Sektor can IATU for punish (not stand alone, that's stupid), flame thrower once at mid range with the quickness, jump forward out of nowhere surprising NW and him not having time to react with axe. If Sektor knows what he is doing, NW must gamble to punish. From my experience, this gamble is NOT 50/50.

As for Dhalsim v Zangief, I will say this about that: True, he has pokes, but if you think those pokes are enough to keep Zangief out or cause enough damage to count on completely (Zangief can take more damage than almost every character in the game), that's asking for trouble. Dhalsim needs to play afraid for his life in this matchup. Only then can he come out on top. Even with that type of play, he is STILL favored.

But this isn't Dhalsim v Zangief. It's Sektor v Nightwolf, I get that the same principle applies, but the engines are different.

I really just cannot fathom that "Sektor can jump around" is a good enough argument to make it a favorable match-up against one of the best characters in the game at closing distance with sick anti-air combos clocking in at ~35%, thus making the "I can jump footsies" argument sound all the more ridiculous. I'm all for people defending their characters of choice, but really? "He can jump"?

I'm not meaning to come across as rude in any way at all, so please don't take it that way. I'm just pointing out that it sounds more than a little suspect.

 

[Robotic]

But this isn't Dhalsim v Zangief. It's Sektor v Nightwolf, I get that the same principle applies, but the engines are different.

I really just cannot fathom that "Sektor can jump around" is a good enough argument to make it a favorable match-up against one of the best characters in the game at closing distance with sick anti-air combos clocking in at ~35%, thus making the "I can jump footsies" argument sound all the more ridiculous. I'm all for people defending their characters of choice, but really? "He can jump"?

I'm not meaning to come across as rude in any way at all, so please don't take it that way. I'm just pointing out that it sounds more than a little suspect.

AGREED: On paper, yeah, it sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately, your only experience on this is reading what I'm typing. I've actually tried this and had success against NW in real game situations. They could be scrubs for all I know, but I can only speak on my own experience. ALL NWs I've faced (not to say that is a shitload by any stretch of the imagination) have trouble with this strategy.

Sim v Zangief is making a reference so I can put you on to what I'm trying to express. By no means is it EXACTLY the same, but they share enough in common to bring it up or I wouldn't have done so. There is no context in typing, so I'll say I said all of this with all due respect.

 

[DrDogg]

A few things to add concerning the Raiden teleport conversation from earlier in the topic (I'll post in the Raiden frame data thread as well). I still need to do more testing, but...

- During a teleport, it takes Raiden 11 frames to disappear. He's completely gone for 2 frames, and reappears on the other side on the 14th frame.
- I was able to Superman as early as 26 frames, and use a normal attack as early as 29 frames.
- For the opponent, when I started an attack 11 frames into the teleport, I attacked the wrong way. When I started an attack 17 frames into the teleport, I attacked facing Raiden.

More testing is required when I have more time, but I'm assuming the teleport ends at 26 frames. I'm also going to assume that you can attack as soon as Raiden appears on the other side (14th frame of the teleport), to begin your punishment. Now the closest I could get to this was attacking on the 17th frame, but hopefully I can narrow that down with more testing.

If we assume Raiden cannot attack until the 26th frame of the teleport, and you can attack on the 14th frame, that gives you 12 frames to attack before Raiden can do anything. Of course, that requires extremely precise timing, but that's what frame data is for.

I'll continue testing and see if I can add more confirmation to this.

 

[Konqrr]

Something about Raiden's teleport vs Kitana. If he teleports and I do a d1 that is blocked, Raiden can PUNISH my d1 with superman on block. He's got to be a jedi though.

Kitana vs Raiden is a really stupid matchup.

Kitana' standing jab (aka FP or 1) is 12 frames. i think that this should be faster, like 8-10 frames. You rarely, if ever, use her 1, 11, or 112 strings because there are much better ones to use, but if it was faster and could be used against someone like Raiden teleporting or a more reliable punish to Reptile's dash, then I would use it. But right now it's useless. I know they nerfed it from the beta because it was a block infinite like Scorpion's 1 was in the PSN demo, but they didn't need to nerf it that hard.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Kitana vs Raiden is a really stupid matchup.

Raiden vs anyone is a stupid matchup.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Also I think you couldn't attack before frame 17 has to do with turning animation, I've heard turning actually isn't instant in mk so your attacks are slower coming out but I haven't been able to verify this. Just shit I read on the forums. Thought it might be bogus but MK is different enough from traditional 2d that i play I'd believe it. So we have between 9-12 frames to punish it .... so anywhere from kitana CAN'T punish it to a 1 frame punisher .................oh yay.

Agree with kitana needing a 1 that is i9 or i10, that and d1 being safe would really remove some of the stupidness from her matchups. I dream of comboable lows but i accept that would be a bit silly without a dmg nerf. Kitana is probably resting at upper-mid tier right now to be honest, no one really has kitana as a hardest matchup nor is she a hard counter to anyone (some might say jax but let's face it MK9 counters Jax).

 

[Somberness]

ChaseRLewis, don't tell me you totally changed your mind about Kitana because of what TB said.
Konqrr, I can not punish D1 with superman, are you sure you were blocking instantly? I can do it with Reptile's dash though. But this isn't a Kitana specific thing here, Reptile can punish other's D1 on block too. Mileena's: yes, Reptile's own: no, but his is slow. So, it's random really. I really doubt people could get this regularly unless you are just spamming it. I don't see why anyone would complain about Kitana's D1 with its long range... Oh and a lot of strings in the game are useless, that's not a Kitana exclusive problem either.

 

[MKK hanzo]

Something about Raiden's teleport vs Kitana. If he teleports and I do a d1 that is blocked, Raiden can PUNISH my d1 with superman on block. He's got to be a jedi though.

Kitana vs Raiden is a really stupid matchup.

Kitana' standing jab (aka FP or 1) is 12 frames. i think that this should be faster, like 8-10 frames. You rarely, if ever, use her 1, 11, or 112 strings because there are much better ones to use, but if it was faster and could be used against someone like Raiden teleporting or a more reliable punish to Reptile's dash, then I would use it. But right now it's useless. I know they nerfed it from the beta because it was a block infinite like Scorpion's 1 was in the PSN demo, but they didn't need to nerf it that hard.

ChaseRLewis, don't tell me you totally changed your mind about Kitana because of what TB said.
Konqrr, I can not punish D1 with superman, are you sure you were blocking instantly? I can do it with Reptile's dash though. But this isn't a Kitana specific thing here, Reptile can punish other's D1 on block too. Mileena's: yes, Reptile's own: no, but his is slow. So, it's random really. I really doubt people could get this regularly unless you are just spamming it. I don't see why anyone would complain about Kitana's D1 with its long range... Oh and a lot of strings in the game are useless, that's not a Kitana exclusive problem either.

Depending on the character of course, most d1 or d3 CAN be punished by another d1 or d3 or fast specials (kung spin, raiden superman, etc). Thats the way I own all Kitana players here, they try to blindly rush me with d1 and its either a free d1 or d3 for me OR a guaranteed spin into combo.

Sorta MK I like when you block/take a c Lk, you can "return" the attack for a free hit.

Again, all this is char specific.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

No i love her I think she's good and I think she's competitive and that's all that matters. Mileena just has teleport and a low combo starter, if kitana had those tools she'd be true top tier not just good. Mileena also has fairly good zoning even though its dmg isn't as high. I messed with her before I messed with kitana but I felt fan zoning had a bit more of a mind game to it and could confirm into a bit higher dmg than sai zoning. I'm not even saying Mileena IS better than kitana, but rather on paper she has more effective tools.

I think kitana has the tools to win any matchup but now that we are really starting to discuss matchups I'm starting to realize there are characters with less hardships than her to the point i feel she's more upper-mid tier than true top tier.It's the progression of matchup discussion which is the point of this thread.

Kitana still rapes smokes bum hard though.

 

[MKK hanzo]

No i love her I think she's good but I think she's competitive and that's all that matters. Mileena just has teleport and a low combo starter, if kitana had those tools she'd be true top tier not just good.


I think d1 being punishable makes things silly.

They need to. Then you should be able to rush d1 dash repeat, or d3 dash repeat all around in a infinite block string.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

They need to. Then you should be able to rush d1 dash repeat, or d3 dash repeat all around in a infinite block string.

You can make it safe at anything but point blank range and have it not be a block infinite ; /at -8 only super man would punish at perfectly timed and spin if done way deep. They gave kano upball at -8 : / d1 at -8 is to good?

I'm not asking for block infinites nor did i mention changing d3. -12 is a very large window to punish a d1 (-12 according to Lomyn's kitana frame data).

 

[Slips]

Mileena in the end will probably not have any bad match-ups, whereas Kitana will have match-ups where she straight up destroys some characters but gets owned by some others. Mileena is more complete, but Kitana is cheaper...if that makes any sense at all.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Mileena in the end will probably not have any bad match-ups, whereas Kitana will have match-ups where she straight up destroys some characters but gets owned by some others. Mileena is more complete, but Kitana is cheaper...if that makes any sense at all.

^^^^^^^^^^^Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[CptXecution]

I think we should focus on filling in this chart shall we? I think each day we should assign a match up and set up a voting/and or poll system on what people think (for the match ups not filled in the chart) and fill it in based on the best arguments and of course by the facts.

 

[Konqrr]

@Slips, what you said was 100000% accurate.

Yes, let's get this done so we can discuss specific matchups!

 

[ChaseRLewis]

I think we should focus on filling in this chart shall we? I think each day we should assign a match up and set up a voting/and or poll system on what people think (for the match ups not filled in the chart) and fill it in based on the best arguments and of course by the facts.

People with mains need to come and discuss them. Otherwise we are just letting tom fill it in. I agree with Lobo's suggestion to put a discussion in each character forum where they'll get more character specific discussion. But arguing tools against eachother kinda helps level out when people think 6-4 or 5-5 or 7-3 vs 6-4.

 

[CptXecution]

well why don't we just do them in order as to what hasn't been filled out...like the first I see that isn't filled in is Kabal vs. KL (ironically enough lol my main) so what are people's thoughts on this match up and at the end of end post we should put what we think the match up would end up as....let the fun begin starting now?

 

[Somberness]

You can make it safe at anything but point blank range and have it not be a block infinite ; /at -8 only super man would punish at perfectly timed and spin if done way deep. They gave kano upball at -8 : / d1 at -8 is to good?

I'm not asking for block infinites nor did i mention changing d3. -12 is a very large window to punish a d1 (-12 according to Lomyn's kitana frame data).

Ok, I just tested it again, and if you do a perfectly timed bf3 with Raiden you can punish it! But seriously, it is not larger than -8..maybe -9 because of travel time. It wouldn't be so hard to punish it if it was. The pushback is so great, Johnny Cage's standing 4 at 9 frames doesn't even reach. I really wouldn't worry about this so much, try it and see how fast you have to be with it.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Ok, I just tested it again, and if you do a perfectly timed bf3 with Raiden you can punish it! But seriously, it is not larger than -8..maybe -9 because of travel time. It wouldn't be so hard to punish it if it was. The pushback is so great, Johnny Cage's standing 4 at 9 frames doesn't even reach. I really wouldn't worry about this so much, try it and see how fast you have to be with it.

Not overly worried it's just a bummer when it happens is all. I think kitana is so solid overall I'm having to find little things to nitpick : P Also I think d1 doesn't have any standing frames.

 

[M2Dave]

For those of you who are curious, here is my initial Kenshi impression based on 50 off-line matches. Keep in mind that none of Kenshi's telekinetic moves can be parried by Smoke's Shake, Cyber Sub Zero's parry, etc.

Text in bold represents glitches (as far as I know).

- Aside from combos, Kenshi appears to be superior to Ermac.

- Spirit Charge (b,f+2) is as fast as Raiden's Electric Fly. The Spirit Charge has a solid hitbox and range. Only the fastest moves in the game (i.e., Reptile's Elbow Dash, Johnny Cage's Shadow Kick, Raiden's Electric Fly, etc.) can punish the Spirit Charge up close. It is 100% safe at max range. The enhanced version is safe on block, has armor, and covers as much distance as Ermac's TKP for 12% of damage. It can also be used as an anti-air attack and forces stand on wake up. The Spirit Charge is surprisingly difficult to whiff punish too. When used correctly, many characters will have difficulties approaching Kenshi because of this move.

- Rising Karma (d,b+1) is an excellent anti-air attack that juggles. Not safe on block. The enhanced version is safe on block and has armor.

- Telekinetic Slash (d,b+4 for close, d,f+4 for medium, and d,b,f+4 for far) are kind of similar to Shang Tsung's Up Skulls but quicker. All Telekinetic Slashes are overheads. Do not bother with the enhanced version because each is unsafe.

- Tele-Fury (b,f+3) is a full screen attack. The Tele-Fury functions like a fireball because you can crouch it, but if your opponent is crouching, perform the appropriate Telekinetic Slash. The enhanced version of the Tele-Fury includes additional hits and all can be crouched but one.

- Blade Reflect (d,b+2) functions like Nightwolf's Relfect more or less. Kenshi's version has a smaller "reflect" window but is safer on whiff. I am not certain, but I think that the Blade Reflect glitches. If Kenshi reflects a fireball and holds forward, all immediate fireballs that are performed are reflected automatically. The enhanced Blade Reflect, which absorbs fireballs and gives Kenshi life, also glitches but in a negative manner. If Kenshi absorbs any fireball, he is unable to block for almost three seconds. For example, if Kenshi absorbs Nightwolf's Arrow Shot, Nightwolf gets a free Lightning.

- X-Ray is too slow and unworthy of three bars. Kenshi is better off using enhanced special attacks.

- Kenshi's best normal attacks are the following at the moment:

- b+2 is a safe overhead
- f+3,2 is a safe low juggle starter with very good range that can also be hit-confirmed into combos
- f+2,2,b+1 is a safe juggle starter that is most useful for punishing
- f+2,2,b+2 is a safe string that ends in the aforementioned overhead

- The bread and butter combo is:

f+2,2,b+1, dash f+3,2~d,b+1, dash f+3,2~b,f+2

 

[CptXecution]

For those of you who are curious, here is my initial Kenshi impression based on 50 off-line matches. Keep in mind that none of Kenshi's telekinetic moves can be parried by Smoke's Shake, Cyber Sub Zero's parry, etc.

Text in bold represents glitches (as far as I know).

- Aside from combos, Kenshi appears to be superior to Ermac.

- Spirit Charge (b,f+2) is as fast as Raiden's Electric Fly. The Spirit Charge has a solid hitbox and range. Only the fastest moves in the game (i.e., Reptile's Elbow Dash, Johnny Cage's Shadow Kick, Raiden's Electric Fly, etc.) can punish the Spirit Charge up close. It is 100% safe at max range. The enhanced version is safe on block, has armor, and covers as much distance as Ermac's TKP for 12% of damage. It can also be used as an anti-air attack and forces stand on wake up. The Spirit Charge is surprisingly difficult to whiff punish too. When used correctly, many characters will have difficulties approaching Kenshi because of this move.

- Rising Karma (d,b+1) is an excellent anti-air attack that juggles. Not safe on block. The enhanced version is safe on block and has armor.

- Telekinetic Slash (d,b+4 for close, d,f+4 for medium, and d,b,f+4 for far) are kind of similar to Shang Tsung's Up Skulls but quicker. All Telekinetic Slashes are overheads. Do not bother with the enhanced version because each is unsafe.

- Tele-Fury (b,f+3) is a full screen attack. The Tele-Fury functions like a fireball because you can crouch it, but if your opponent is crouching, perform the appropriate Telekinetic Slash. The enhanced version of the Tele-Fury includes additional hits and all can be crouched but one.

- Blade Reflect (d,b+2) functions like Nightwolf's Relfect more or less. Kenshi's version has a smaller "reflect" window but is safer on whiff. I am not certain, but I think that the Blade Reflect glitches. If Kenshi reflects a fireball and holds forward, all immediate fireballs that are performed are reflected automatically. The enhanced Blade Reflect, which absorbs fireballs and gives Kenshi life, also glitches but in a negative manner. If Kenshi absorbs any fireball, he is unable to block for almost three seconds. For example, if Kenshi absorbs Nightwolf's Arrow Shot, Nightwolf gets a free Lightning.

- X-Ray is too slow and unworthy of three bars. Kenshi is better off using enhanced special attacks.

- Kenshi's best normal attacks are the following at the moment:

- b+2 is a safe overhead
- f+3,2 is a safe low juggle starter with very good range that can also be hit-confirmed into combos
- f+2,2,b+1 is a safe juggle starter that is most useful for punishing
- f+2,2,b+2 is a safe string that ends in the aforementioned overhead

- The bread and butter combo is:

f+2,2,b+1, dash f+3,2~d,b+1, dash f+3,2~b,f+2

This is all great but this should be put into his thread...this is a match up thread.

 

[DanCock]

thanks for the info dave. lol at yet another character getting armor. I just found out 2 nights ago that even kitana has a armor move.

can some one please tell me why sindel can't get one????? .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[colt]

You didn't see her wreck everyone in story mode? Obviously Overpowered!

 

[DanCock]

You didn't see her wreck everyone in story mode? Obviously Overpowered!

lololol your funny.

make 4 special cancelable again show her some love.


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[TheChad_87]

Bleh! I've been racking my brain with Sheeva v Mileena and it looks like it's probably gonna be a 3:7 match-up...

Out of 100 games, my friend here using Mileena has kicked my ass 67 times. ... =-/.
Mileena is just too quick for the Shokan bitch to do much of anything, unfortunately. Jump Stomp is beyond useless as tele-kick knocks her flat on her ass. I can catch him at times when he starts throwing projectiles with a stomp, and then go into a 2, 1, 2. Problem is, her movement speed is so slow, that a good player can see and react to her moves accordingly. Sheeva can't win the projectile game either as Mileena will do iAS, and ground Sai to every 1 Fireball Sheeva can throw. The fact that she's jumping means that Ground Pound is not a viable option either.
Mileena's hit box is quite small. Small enough that 2, 1, 2, F+1, Grab N Punch will not work on Mileena (The command throw misses). Sheeva can still pull off 31% on a punish with 1, 2, B+1, dash, 4, Grab N Punch, but 2, 1, 2 is a better punishment starter overall, IMO; and the only option I see for punishment with it, is 2, 1, 2, F+1, Fireball for 25% Unfortunately, I lack specific frame data on 2,1,2 v, 1,2,B+1 though, so if anyone can confirm/deny, that would be great.
When Mileena starts to rush Sheeva down, she does okay at fighting back as long as she has meter. The EN Grab N Punch's armor is her only saving grace in this fight, but that requires meter to use.
Low Grab has been phenomenal when I can catch Mileena ducking, usually after an assault of D+3s, or 1, 2s or after I've caught her with F+3, Grab N Punch. Problem is, Mileena's not going on the defensive much at all, so Sheeva doesn't really get the opportunity to utilize her Mix-Up game.
I've been using 4, Grab N Punch as a punish for a whiffed Ball, and 2, Grab N Punch for teleport but Mileena's not exactly using them at times when she's likely to be blocked and punished. I also tried using Anti-Air Grab more as that puts her closer to Sheeva on resolution, and it may help to some degree because it can be followed up with more footsies, but I really think Mileena wins out there, too.

100 Games is far from definitive. I did keep a record this way as well:
1-10: 2:8
11-20: 3:7
21-30: 4:6
31-40: 3:7
41-50: 2:8
51-60: 4:6
61-70: 6:4 (OOOOOH YEAAAAAH!!!!)
71-80: 3:7
81-90: 3:7
91-100: 3:7

As I said, I know this doesn't solidify that match-up as a 3:7, but I think it gives us a good place to start on the chart and we can discuss it.

TL; DR version:
Mileena kicks the ever-living shit out of Sheeva. In my experience, this is a 3:7 Match-up in favor of Mileena. Discuss.