MKX: The 3 to 6 Month Rule

[CrimsonShadow]

This is all pointless discussion, because in the end NRS will patch what the general population bitches about most as quickly as they want until WB tells them to move on to something else.

I don't think people understand that a patch to a game is not a same-day kind of affair. By the time a game patch is in your hands, behind the scenes a game designer made a call, changes were made, testers were going over the changes for weeks to determine certain things, adjustments were made, more testing, the patch had to go through QA to make sure that the changes don't break anything else game-wise, then the patch has to go off to cert, be certified by the console companies, and then finally be scheduled for delivery assuming it passed cert.

People are vastly overestimating their own significance. Game designers are often well aware of issues long before there's a groundswell of complaint. They consider far more factors than the average player has to, and are often working on or planning fixes long before those fixes are made.

Also with specific regard to MK/IGAU, the designers are watching a lot of streams/gameplay themselves and forming their own opinions. They know if something is working out like they intended, or if there are tools that are ruining the way they intended the game to be played.

The notion that every patch is due to random people complaining on TYM and game designers bowing to every little whim and tear is simply untrue -- and people need to stop making those claims.

 

[Konqrr]

OP character or tactic? let it slide for at LEAST 6 months.

Game breaking issue or glitch? fix it immediately.

Reality Check:

• We will get a day 1 patch like always that gives us the most current version of the game.
• We will get a patch with each DLC that is released.
• Things the designers see in videos and streams that they did not intend will be fixed.

This makes the most business sense and what is likely to happen whether we like it or not.

 

[RTM2004]

The real question is regarding patches, did Killer Frost really deserved the nerfs she received too early in the game?

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

@CrimsonShadow well what is defined as "intended"? because last time I checked, things like DS's guns or Kano's upball weren't infinites nor gitches and for sure weren't broken. There are many nerfs me and many others just do not approve of, but tbh it should be expected that MKX will be patched a certain way. I don't blame NRS for ppl "whining' about something that actually can be dealt with. I'm still more for just patching out infinites and glitches early on, but whatever they do, I will deal with it like always because a fighting game will never truly be "balanced".

 

[ZeZe]

With variations I'd expect lots of patches. With all my positive attitude, I just can't imagine the game that has 3 variation for every fighter be balanced outright. I don't think it's humanly possible. So I'm just bracing myself for lots of patching. Hopefully they'll do more good then even (especially to SubZ).

 

[Koor]

I'd like to see them be more patient with the major patches. Bugs/glitches etc. Those are what should be jumped on immediately though, but actual character balancing should be done much later. 6months, hell maybe more. With what happened to MK9/Injustice, i'd hate to see the same thing go down with MKX. I know no one wants to have a character (especially if its a main) that ends up with matchups where they dont even get to play because of how unfinished and/or how lopsided their matchups are. And yet theyre stuck that way because all the patching got wrapped up too soon.

Sheeva vs Kabal
Lex Luthor vs Zod

Never forget.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

@CrimsonShadow well what is defined as "intended"? because last time I checked, things like DS's guns or Kano's upball weren't infinites nor gitches and for sure weren't broken. There are many nerfs me and many others just do not approve of, but tbh it should be expected that MKX will be patched a certain way. I don't blame NRS for ppl "whining' about something that actually can be dealt with. I'm still more for just patching out infinites and glitches early on, but whatever they do, I will deal with it like always because a fighting game will never truly be "balanced".

DS was never intended to be played as a "mostly gunplay" character. He was given a useful and interesting footsie toolset for a reason. Regardless of whether or not he was Kabal-level broke, the devs clearly intended for him to be played in a more balanced way and that's what they adjusted him towards.

One thing I've noticed is that people only seemed to focus on the extent of a patch rather than the idea behind it. Imo debating whether a patch was "too much" or not doesn't change the fact that it was moving in the right direction. Same goes for Scorpion, etc.

 

[Eminent]

I think a fighting game is truly balanced when the best character has at least 1 losing match-up. Did MMH have any 4-6's?

 

[Briggs8417]

I don't think people understand that a patch to a game is not a same-day kind of affair. By the time a game patch is in your hands, behind the scenes a game designer made a call, changes were made, testers were going over the changes for weeks to determine certain things, adjustments were made, more testing, the patch had to go through QA to make sure that the changes don't break anything else game-wise, then the patch has to go off to cert, be certified by the console companies, and then finally be scheduled for delivery assuming it passed cert.

People are vastly overestimating their own significance. Game designers are often well aware of issues long before there's a groundswell of complaint. They consider far more factors than the average player has to, and are often working on or planning fixes long before those fixes are made.

Also with specific regard to MK/IGAU, the designers are watching a lot of streams/gameplay themselves and forming their own opinions. They know if something is working out like they intended, or if there are tools that are ruining the way they intended the game to be played.

The notion that every patch is due to random people complaining on TYM and game designers bowing to every little whim and tear is simply untrue -- and people need to stop making those claims.

I was being sarcastic...

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

DS was never intended to be played as a "mostly gunplay" character. He was given a useful and interesting footsie toolset for a reason. Regardless of whether or not he was Kabal-level broke, the devs clearly intended for him to be played in a more balanced way and that's what they adjusted him towards.

One thing I've noticed is that people only seemed to focus on the extent of a patch rather than the idea behind it. Imo debating whether a patch was "too much" or not doesn't change the fact that it was moving in the right direction. Same goes for Scorpion, etc.

I dnt think nerfing DS and leaving supes and others the same moved injustice in the right direction by any means lol. Also scorpion didn't need to get nerfed that bad while MMH, BG, and etc. kept their dirt. The double standards and hyprocrisy be too real.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I dnt think nerfing DS and leaving supes and others the same moved injustice in the right direction by any means lol. Also scorpion didn't need to get nerfed that bad while MMH, BG, and etc. kept their dirt. The double standards and hyprocrisy be too real.

So the argument is "if we fixed a couple of the characters, but didn't catch everything, it would have been better to leave everything ridiculous".

This doesn't make any sense to me. No one is saying that BG and MMH are fine; but the truth is they should be dealt with as well, not that they're an excuse to leave certain other characters' tools OP.

If you can find a bunch of people saying "Superman was fine", let me know, but that def. wasn't my point and it doesn't have anything to do with DS.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

So the argument is "if we fixed a couple of the characters, but didn't catch everything, it would have been better to leave everything ridiculous".

This doesn't make any sense to me. No one is saying that BG and MMH are fine; but the truth is they should be dealt with as well, not that they're an excuse to leave certain other characters' tools OP.

If you can find a bunch of people saying "Superman was fine", let me know, but that def. wasn't my point and it doesn't have anything to do with DS.

That is not what I'm saying, I am saying that you can't just nerf one character and leave others the same, that doesn't add up and doesn't help the game "balance wise" since balance seems to be the things ppl complain about most in fighting games. Look at how SF patches every character in the game to some extent, even though some obviously stay very good characters at least they were touched and not just left completely alone. I mentioned supes because he was clearly better than DS overall as a character (Black Adam, AM were better as well and even BM can be said to have been better). So in conclusion, if you patch one "top tier" or whatever, just patch the others. Am I and others asking for too much by saying that? If so then I'll just hold my thoughts. I respect ur opinion, but I got to disagree with it.

 

[Hitoshura]

I'm down with hotfixes to fixes bugs/glitches, but we need patches every 6 months or so. Games need time to marinate.

 

[Eji1700]

1. Hotfixes for anything obscenely broken. I'm talking OHKO setups or infinites that kill or things of that nature.

2. 2 months before EVO, OR every 3 months, a balance patch with light nerfs for oppressive top tiers(not all of them), and mostly buffs focused on absolute bottom tiers.

I think the important thing is for them to let the community "break" the game, and then figure out what they're ok with. An ideal fighter in my eyes is like GG, where everyone has their own special brand of bullshit, rather than just being "meh" for everyone. With that in mind I was mostly ok with Cyrax, who could do dirty shit but was meter dependent (I feel a few general moves should've been worse), but not ok with kabal who was crazy good all round, without needing to use meter, and while being able to build meter as he spaced, which wound up giving him more breakers per match and a lot of advantages. My ideal kabal might have still had the run stop bullshit, slightly weaker zoning (can IAF, but not while going backwards), and and then required meter to get damage/in (worse normals and worse non EX run, rather than good normal run and GODLY EX run).

 

[CrimsonShadow]

That is not what I'm saying, I am saying that you can't just nerf one character and leave others the same, that doesn't add up and doesn't help the game "balance wise" since balance seems to be the things ppl complain about most in fighting games. Look at how SF patches every character in the game to some extent, even though some obviously stay very good characters at least they were touched and not just left completely alone. I mentioned supes because he was clearly better than DS overall as a character (Black Adam, AM were better as well and even BM can be said to have been better). So in conclusion, if you patch one "top tier" or whatever, just patch the others. Am I and others asking for too much by saying that? If so then I'll just hold my thoughts. I respect ur opinion, but I got to disagree with it.

I think we both agree on that for sure. It's def. a good thing to have parity in how you deal with people's tools across the cast.

What I'm trying to say, though, is that if some characters were missed, people shouldn't retroactively use that to say that no one else should have been touched. Imo although no dev will be perfect, it's better to have some progress than none at all.

And I think above all, it just reiterates the fact that balancing a game has to be an ongoing process and not something that's just given up on after a year or so.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

They need to spend more time testing the game before it's released for one. As far as balance patches go, that shouldn't happen until about 6 months after the game comes out, then maybe another one at the one year mark. Infinites and similar things should be patched immediately though.

 

[Hitoshura]

1. Hotfixes for anything obscenely broken. I'm talking OHKO setups or infinites that kill or things of that nature.

2. 2 months before EVO, OR every 3 months, a balance patch with light nerfs for oppressive top tiers(not all of them), and mostly buffs focused on absolute bottom tiers.

I think the important thing is for them to let the community "break" the game, and then figure out what they're ok with. An ideal fighter in my eyes is like GG, where everyone has their own special brand of bullshit, rather than just being "meh" for everyone. With that in mind I was mostly ok with Cyrax, who could do dirty shit but was meter dependent (I feel a few general moves should've been worse), but not ok with kabal who was crazy good all round, without needing to use meter, and while being able to build meter as he spaced, which wound up giving him more breakers per match and a lot of advantages. My ideal kabal might have still had the run stop bullshit, slightly weaker zoning (can IAF, but not while going backwards), and and then required meter to get damage/in (worse normals and worse non EX run, rather than good normal run and GODLY EX run).

I agree with this, but 3 months I feel is still too early for character changes. Even if they're light.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I think we both agree on that for sure. It's def. a good thing to have parity in how you deal with people's tools across the cast.

What I'm trying to say, though, is that if some characters were missed, people shouldn't retroactively use that to say that no one else should have been touched. Imo although no dev will be perfect, it's better to have some progress than none at all.

And I think above all, it just reiterates the fact that balancing a game has to be an ongoing process and not something that's just given up on after a year or so.

Yeah I agree with that. I for sure do not think that you should just leave one character the way they were because others got to keep their strong tools, I feel all the "top" characters should get touched in a way. Now of course the only issue with that is that a character may be strong (like sonya was) and ppl don't really realize it yet and they get a buff they actually don't need. So yeah in conclusion, it is hard to balance games tbh, very tough job and many variables can cause things to go wrong.

 

[ando1184]

I think hotfixes should come frequently and regularly to address infinites and glitches. Patches should come around every 6-8 months so we can actually discover what is and is not "broken" or OP. We are still discovering ways around mechanics, tech, and characters in injustice at this point of the game so we need time to learn this stuff. Also, it would be nice if NRS would make that 1 last patch after all the dlc has been released and dissected because let's face it, zod vs lex is a little rediculous.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Yeah I agree with that. I for sure do not think that you should just leave one character the way they were because others got to keep their strong tools, I feel all the "top" characters should get touched in a way. Now of course the only issue with that is that a character may be strong (like sonya was) and ppl don't really realize it yet and they get a buff they actually don't need. So yeah in conclusion, it is hard to balance games tbh, very tough job and many variables can cause things to go wrong.

Yeah. I think as a dev you just have to accept that you're going to make mistakes.. But it also means you can't be afraid to bring things back the other way when needed. Like if a character was patched, and it was too severe, be willing to give them back a few frames or some extra points of damage next time.

That's the cool thing about the way games like LoL and Dota2 are balanced and I think it does well for their competitive scene.

 

[Compbros]

OP character or tactic? let it slide for at LEAST 6 months.

Game breaking issue or glitch? fix it immediately.
.

Superman's breath was once +2 on block with an 8 frame, forward advancing normal with a hitbox the size of Texas. Most pokes and normals have their shortest start up time of 6f. So, after breath, even with your fastest normal, the most you could hope is to trade with Superman because if you're even a frame too slow you're eating 40 percent. Then there was his ridiculous corner damage where he was able to viably get into the 70 range with a bar, and this is before we started doing dive bomb resets. Plus all his zoning was easy as hell. No. Fuck no. 6 months of that? No.


This is the character I know best when it comes to buffs/nerfs but I remember the others, you want us to sit around for 6 months with a character that could be stupidly OP for what? So we know just how OP they are? Why should the players suffer and struggle through stuff that is CLEARLY dumb just because? Things like Scorpion in Injustice could've waited to see how players adapt, there's almost no adaptation to that Superman breath shit. Make adjustments throughout the months then have a big balance patch months later, don't just sit around because the game needs time to breathe or something.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Yeah. I think as a dev you just have to accept that you're going to make mistakes.. But it also means you can't be afraid to bring things back the other way when needed. Like if a character was patched, and it was too severe, be willing to give them back a few frames or some extra points of damage next time.

That's the cool thing about the way games like LoL and Dota2 are balanced and I think it does well for their competitive scene.

Yeah that makes sense. We will see how MKX runs its course. I feel optimistic about variations for sure though, they hopefully will be a big help balance wise and gameplay wise as far as keeping the game fresh goes.

Superman's breath was once +2 on block with an 8 frame, forward advancing normal with a hitbox the size of Texas. Most pokes and normals have their shortest start up time of 6f. So, after breath, even with your fastest normal, the most you could hope is to trade with Superman because if you're even a frame too slow you're eating 40 percent. Then there was his ridiculous corner damage where he was able to viably get into the 70 range with a bar, and this is before we started doing dive bomb resets. Plus all his zoning was easy as hell. No. Fuck no. 6 months of that? No.


This is the character I know best when it comes to buffs/nerfs but I remember the others, you want us to sit around for 6 months with a character that could be stupidly OP for what? So we know just how OP they are? Why should the players suffer and struggle through stuff that is CLEARLY dumb just because? Things like Scorpion in Injustice could've waited to see how players adapt, there's almost no adaptation to that Superman breath shit. Make adjustments throughout the months then have a big balance patch months later, don't just sit around because the game needs time to breathe or something.

I mean u can go with this mentality, but we will just run out of patches like usual then . NRS always patches when a DLC comes out which is like 6 or so patches give or take. Add that with the other patches, and they have no more patches to give as they will be in the works of their next project (probably injustice 2).

 

[Compbros]

Anybody saying wait I ask you to do this: if you have the non komplete/ultimate editions of the NRS games then delete your patch, go offline, boot up your game, and just play it for a little while. Play your character for a little while, maybe 20 minutes, and play a few other characters that you know the basics of or what have you. Then think about playing the game this way for 6 months. I tried this with Superman and it was an embarrassment of riches.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Anybody saying wait I ask you to do this: if you have the non komplete/ultimate editions of the NRS games then delete your patch, go offline, boot up your game, and just play it for a little while. Play your character for a little while, maybe 20 minutes, and play a few other characters that you know the basics of or what have you. Then think about playing the game this way for 6 months. I tried this with Superman and it was an embarrassment of riches.

I would do it haha, give me old DS back

 

[Compbros]

I would do it haha, give me old DS back

Lol, Old DS was too skrong.