MKII Tier List Discussion

[Vassago187]

make his acid spit do more damage or make his forceball release faster and he would go up the list decently. The speed of the forceball is just ridiculous.

 

[dudemcrude]

Like I said before, what we need to do is test out the best with various characters against each other multiple times. Of course the results wouldn't be perfect, but it would definitely test the current hypotheses. We'd have to use a larger sample size than best out of 10 matches, though. It leaves far too much room for error. For example, a 5-5 match really isn't even most of the time; give it 50 tries and you'll see one character has a slight advantage. For that matter, Reptile would probably lose 8 (or even 9) out of 10 matches against Liu, but it's doubtful he would actually lose 80 out of 100. A sample size of 50 is much more reasonable, to me.

It's important, also, not to actually have people fight 50 matches in a row. More like 10 one session, 15 another, and so on until you have a workable sample size. This way, you won't get a tired and vulnerable Kensi against a sharp and devastating Dubson fucking up the results. We all have slow days and sharp days. 10 matches x 5 sessions = as even and fair as you could possibly get. I'd be more than happy to log the results if people were actually willing to play this out and see what happens.

How many of you god tiers would seriously be willing to do this shit?

 

[dudemcrude]

BTW, I completely agree with Dubson on the Cage/Scorp matchup. Scorp has to get ahead in damage before he can run away. How? Jump kick whiff teleport? Blocked, eats a high kick, uppercut, or worse, jab rushdown. Once the round starts, Cage takes one step back and kara jabs. Scorp can't do much; he might try the teleport-whiff-throw, but Cage can high kick him out of it. Scorp spammers in the lobby often walk back throwing spears for chip damage, but one blocked bolt does the same damage as three or four blocked spears. Scorp really can't do much except HOPE you attack first. Obviously a Kensi or Yung level Scorp would kill my Cage, but against players my own level, I own this match up.

 

[dubson]

dudemcrude, I like your attitude/dedication sir.

You have a PS3?

 

[X820]

IMO cage looses the mayority of fights against scorpion, for all the good reasons Konqrr, Scheiss and Kensi wrote earlier.

Dubson, want to test that with me? Your cage against my scorpion..

I have a PS3, but we will lag like no other most prob, MAME P2P would work flawless, if you have a steady connection that is.

 

[dubson]

I would love to...

Please add me on psn sir.

dubson965

 

[X820]

I would love to...

Please add me on psn sir.

dubson965

Don't you have MAME?

 

[frznsldr]

if scorp throws a spear and its blockd by cage, scorp eats a shadow kick. it has more range than most ppl think. my fav person to use against scorp is either scorp or cage.

 

[X820]

Sure, maybe scorp can block that and HK/spear his ass, like you said: distance lol.

 

[dudemcrude]

dudemcrude, I like your attitude/dedication sir.

You have a PS3?

I do. My nick = MackerfieldLives. Just so you know, I'm nowhere near the level of competition as most of the other guys in this discussion, but I'm always up for some games if you catch me on.

 

[dubson]

Don't you have MAME?

No, I don't... unless you wanna help me set it up...

 

[X820]

No, I don't... unless you wanna help me set it up...

Check This Topic, if you have troubles setting up after that, have a chat on AIM with me..

How about this weekend ?

 

[Konqrr]

Been really digging in and working on matchups. I don't think Reptile is the worst character anymore...Baraka is. I know some of you have been saying this but until recently, I haven't seen it. You can't win just on a high priority jump kick and long sweep.

Also:

Jax vs Mileena - 6-4 Jax
Mileena can Air Sai all day and has excellent jabs/sweep. Jax can use well timed Ground Pounds to hit her when she lands from an Air Sai. If she doesn't mix up the height on the Air Sai's, Jax can get a free Jump Kick then either Ground Pound or bait her to jump where he gets either a free aaHK or a Ground Pound when she lands. He can wait her out and use ducking LP to push her out when she gets close. Mileena has to take risks to do decent damage, Jax doesn't.

Mileena vs Liu Kang - 6-4 Mileena
Liu has to be careful doing fireballs because of the Telekick. If Mileena blocks a Low Fireball from sweep distance, she gets a free Roll into Jump Kick for big damage. Liu has to turtle in this matchup, which is what he does best, but he can't be reckless like he can in other matchups.

Reptile vs Baraka - 6-4 Reptile
Reptile doesn't have much, but what he has is very effective while invisible. Reptile can hit Baraka out of his Jump Kick/Punch easily with his Godlike Roundhouse. Baraka has the better sweep but Reptile isn't going to play that game, he is going to wait out Baraka. Anytime Baraka does the Blade Spark from 3/4 screen or closer, it's a free Jump Kick or Slide into Invisibility.

^^THIS HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH WHY I THINK REPTILE IS BETTER THAN BARAKA!

How do you think Kitana's Instant Air Fan (iAF) helps her in some matchups? I think it really helps her out in the Jax and Mileena matchups.

Please discuss and post your own matchups and why!

 

[dubson]

I agree in that I don't think Reptile is the worst, and agree in that I think it is Baraka.

A good Reptile player who properly uses his invisibility can be a bitch for any character.

Not only that but playing as Reptile forces you to use his slide, opposed to Sub-Zero, who is much more dependent on getting you frozen into big damage. All you really need to be effective with him is his invisibility and his slide.

The slide is a very good, and underrated move in this game.

From the right distance (closer than further), it can punish almost anything in the game (I want Konqrr and I to find out which moves it can't and from what distances).

I think it'll be close next time we work the charts, but I think Reptile will edge out Baraka.

I also think Raiden may have to be higher....

His teleport is HUGE. He can NOT be locked down by anyone. I believe it to be one of the best special moves in the game, along with the torpedo.... The dude can give anyone a hard time, but I believe his worst match-up to be Jax. As he can pretty much stop him dead in his tracks anywhere with a ground pound, and even with the teleport it's very hard for him to beat him.

There is a definate separation in tiers from top to middle but it is not as big as people once believed, but I believe the gap from middle to low is very small.

As of now, in no order I believe it to be:

Top - Kang, Mileena, Jax
Middle - Kitana, Raiden, Kung, Scorpion, Shang, Cage
Low - Sub, Reptile, Baraka

And I don't dismiss Sub squeezing into middle, but as I stated, this is just a rough draft of my opinion.

An exact order is going to take much more time and testing, but a grouped tier list like this will come sooner.

 

[Konqrr]

There is no need for a numbered list in MK2, you will just lose hair over it.
I'm not saying this to you dubs, but everyone, how many times were you convinced that Liu was the best, Jax was the best or Mileena was the best?

While I agree with you, I actually want to explore this game further, get frame data, know exactly what counters what and why. I look forward to it. MK is a part of me and always will be. This is my passion, sad as that may be.

 

[dubson]

I agree with everything Scheisse just said.

Also, looking back at some of the grids Konqrr and I made, they make it evident that Cage is consistently further in points from the person above him, and very close to the person below him, making a definate gap between him and middle tier.

Also, his projectile game has got to be the easiest to get around besides Baraka. It seems to me off the top of my head that he is the easiest to progress on while spamming projectiles.

And like Scheisse stated earlier, the amount of work he has to put in for the amount of damage he can dish out just isn't even. I often find my self winning with Cage because I guessed right, or read my opponent, which has very little to do with Cage himself.

how many times were you convinced that Liu was the best, Jax was the best or Mileena was the best?

Too many times to count lol.



Cheers Konqrr.

 

[btbb99]

i agree with konqrr, while i'm not good at breaking stuff down about who is best from 1-12 in exact order, i like reading about it and don't see why people can't break things down as much as they want in mk2, afterall whether you are a player on this site and you are elite, average, or you suck, i would have to say that all of us love mk2..we come here to post everyday and the game is 17 years old lol.. so i don't see no harm in people breaking the game down as much as they want.

 

[dubson]

That is true.

I think we have at least come to a tier list for now that can be pretty much agreed on until a 1-12 is determined. And even in that case, there seems to be 3 tier levels in this game.

And if THAT hasn't changed in 17 years..... I don't think it will.

To give you an idea, this is how many tier levels you are seeing in Street Fighter IV (which I refuse to play until Super Street Fighter IV comes out)

S: Sagat
A: Ryu, Akuma, Rufus,
B: C. Viper Chun-li, Balrog
C: E. Honda, M. Bison, Abel, Dhalsim, Blanka, El Fuerte
D: Ken, Vega
E: Guile

It has 6 tier levels..... Street Fighter IV is a very unbalanced game. About 75% of the cast can't compete competively, and certain characters are just way to over powered to where most characters don't even stand a chance. And it has the top tier with 1 character, which is never a good thing that one character is that dominate that it deserves its own tier. And you can pretty much toss all the console characters in the E tier. Now, Super SF IV is another story, but the point is (other than Capcom never gets it right the first time) is that Mortal Kombat II Revision 3.1 is a pretty balanced fighting game.


This is a Street Fighter III: Third Strike tier list:

Top Tier:
Yun
Chun-Li
Ken

Upper Tier:
Makoto
Dudley
Akuma
Urien
Yang

Middle Tier:
Ryu
Oro
Ibuki
Elena

Low Tier:
Necro
Alex
Remy
Q
Hugo
Twelve
Sean

It has 4 tier levels, and this is a very good/balanced game (one of the best fighters ever made, if not the best). Sean may or may not deserve his own tier, but then again so may Baraka. But the point is, it's top tier isn't 1 character, but 3 to choose from. Over 50% of the cast can be played with on a tournament level, and the tier separation isn't very big.

Here is a Tekken 6 (Bloodline Rebellion to be fair) tier list, it has 5 levels.... but it has 40 characters!

A) Law, Bruce, Nina, Steve, Baek, Granny Roger
B) Mig, Bryan, Leo, Anna, Jin, Jack, Bob, DJ, Paul, Kaz, Lili, King, Drag, AK, Hwo, Capos
C) Lee, Wang, Julia, Lars, Feng, Hei, Bears, 'Duk, Lei, Alisa, Xaio
D) Asuka, Yoshi, Zaf
X) Raven, Moku

5 tier levels with 40 characters? That is pretty balanced.

Mortal Kombat II revision 3.1 has 3 tier levels.... S, A and B and with 12 characters. The middle tier is the biggest, opposed to the top or the bottom. And there are very few match-ups in MKII which are completely dominate to where one character doesn't stand a chance, when compared to a game like SFIV.

Top - Kang, Mileena, Jax
Middle - Kitana, Raiden, Kung, Scorpion, Shang
Low - Cage, Sub, Reptile, Baraka

Can Konqrr agree on this?

 

[X820]

Yeah, I'm not talking down at people trying to make a tier list, it is just a ton of work, but at least in mk2 it could be more useful than other games. I was just trying to state with those tiers, that we were at a milestone that everyone could finally agree on, which might be a first since umk.com opened.

First time ever, at least it's really open to debate now, unlike in the pas, where lists were handed out as facts

 

[X820]

Top - Kang, Mileena, Jax
Middle - Kitana, Raiden, Kung, Scorpion, Shang
Low - Cage, Sub, Reptile, Baraka

Can Konqrr agree on this?

I see Sub zero in the middle tier myself.

 

[dubson]

Sub-Zero definately has potential and is gaining stock in my books (while Cage has lost stock).

People don't use his slide enough, and if he can trade an ice blast with you it can lead to big damage and/or open you up to mix-up games.

More thoughts on Sub-Zero?

 

[Konqrr]

Very good post Dubs. If we were to break it down even more, it should look like this:

S: Jax, Kang, Mileena - In a league of their own.
A: Kitana, Raiden, Kung - They have mobility and great options.
B: Scorpion, Shang - Can hold their own, but are limited in what they can do.
C: Cage, Sub, Reptile - Have to work hard for every bit of damage.
D: Baraka - Nothing really to work with but sweeps and JK, and that's not enough.

Sub-Zero is a pretty scary character to fight against sometimes. When he freezes you, do you cringe? You know that half your lifebar is gone, right? Once he lands it, you are forced to come to him (like against the top tier) and that can be a daunting task considering the ground ice/slide and his godlike roundhouse.

 

[CrazySlasher27]

I always thought Cage should be higher. Played right he can a real monster. I remember back on the arcade playing a lot of unreal Cage's that would just destroy.

 

[Konqrr]

I always thought Cage should be higher. Played right he can a real monster. I remember back on the arcade playing a lot of unreal Cage's that would just destroy.

He can be a monster, but so can every other character. The problem with Cage is that he has to really work for every bit of damage he gets and position he gains. Nothing is handed to him, nothing is free. He's not bad, but not really good either. The fact that he can't be jabbed by more than half the cast is a big plus though.

 

[X820]

S: Jax, Kang, Mileena - In a league of their own.
A: Kitana, Raiden, Kung - They have mobility and great options.
B: Scorpion, Shang - Can hold their own, but are limited in what they can do.
C: Cage, Sub, Reptile - Have to work hard for every bit of damage.
D: Baraka - Nothing really to work with but sweeps and JK, and that's not enough.

This looks pretty spot on to me, not sure about Scorp/Raiden though..

If anyone can take on Raiden, it's scorpion, he can get out of the way and his ability to be anywhere on the screen is a force to be reckoned with.

Remember that almost no character is as pattern based as raiden, teleporting often gets a rev. spear, not to mention serious damage when a superman attack is blocked (decoy, spear, uppercut), wich happens quite a lot.