MKII Tier List Discussion

[scorpangel]

Good to see you finally posting with us scorpangel. I appreciate your input.

Thanks for posting the latest drafts we worked on Konqrr. Good to see you posting amigo.

I think it is clear that Liu and Jax are better than Mileena, although she cannot be any lower than spot 3. There is just no way. The gap between the top tier and the middle tier is big enough to where it just cannot happen.

no problem dude dats why i signed up to post my oppinion. yea ur right mileena is good she has the best combos in the game but shes still not close to jax or liu but it depends how well the ppl play with her or liu

 

[Tim Static]

Good to see you finally posting with us scorpangel. I appreciate your input.

Thanks for posting the latest drafts we worked on Konqrr. Good to see you posting amigo.

I think it is clear that Liu and Jax are better than Mileena, although she cannot be any lower than spot 3. There is just no way. The gap between the top tier and the middle tier is big enough to where it just cannot happen.

no problem dude dats why i signed up to post my oppinion. yea ur right mileena is good she has the best combos in the game but shes still not close to jax or liu but it depends how well the ppl play with her or liu

Yeah, but then again, the tier list is made assuming each player is of equal skill.

I still dont know if Kang is over Jax.

Wouldnt MGP take a huge toll on Kang? If were talking about the highest level of play....

 

[Black Shroud]

The invisibility of Reptile was mentioned earlier in this thread. First of all, it is very hard to scale something like that (ofcourse, MK is the only competitive fighting game series with characters going invisible) but obviously it is in advantage.

Just wanted to point out that invisibility is used by some other ninja characters in competitive games, such as Hanzo in Samurai Shodown and Chipp in Guilty Gear series

 

[Konqrr]

Wouldnt MGP take a huge toll on Kang? If were talking about the highest level of play....

Liu never needs to be on the ground to fight Jax. Well placed air fireballs keep Jax at bay, you play him like you would if you were Mileena.

 

[MKB]

Exactly. Just keep air fireballing. Sadly, one of the only ways to beat a Jax player who MGP's and backs up all day is to air fireball and spam his ass. Not the way I prefer to play the game, but w/e.

 

[dudemcrude]

The last step I was working on was getting the best player for ever character to make a proper tier list. This one above is just based on me and Konqrr's speculation. But this is how a real tier list should be made.

This is a Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo tier list that was made in Japan.

http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html

As you can see, to the right of every character is the assumed best person with that specific character.

That is the best way to do this.

So who ever you people thinks has the best Jax, Liu, Baraka, Sub, everyone. Start discussing this.

I think it has been said scorpangel has the best Liu on PSN, I know Aria has one of my favorite Reptiles, dvd has an awesome Jax, I heard Real_Talk has an awesome Sub, Yung has a sick Scorp and Sushi has a nasty Raiden.

Who is the best with who, in your guys' opinion? Repeats are fine too, meaning if you think someone has the best 2 or 3 or however many characters that is completely fine.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be far more accurate to play 100 games than 10. 100 might not be feasible for every char vs. every char (exluding mirror matches, of course), but 25 or even 50 are perfectly possible and can then be adjusted as if they were 10.

The problem with 10 matches is that you are much more likely to end up with a 10-0 or 9-1 (even in high level play). Smaller samples leave more room for error and skewed numbers. With larger samples, you end up with more accurate results. The more matches played, the more accurate of a portrait you can truly paint. With 25 matches, it's much very unlikely you will end up with a 10-0 ratio, and with 50 matches, it's much less likely you'll end up with a 9-1 ratio in any character's favor.

From a statistical perspective, you should always try to work with the largest sample possible.

 

[dubson]

Just wanted to point out that invisibility is used by some other ninja characters in competitive games, such as Hanzo in Samurai Shodown and Chipp in Guilty Gear series

Wow, did not know that. Thanks Black Shroud. I will have to look into that.

How is the start up time on theirs?

@ dudemcrude

Maybe multiple 10 match sessions over time?

Any more than that and you can risk players getting tired and you risk the Reptile player beating the Liu Kang player because at this point he is beating the player, not the character. Because at that point he has adapted to how the player is playing opposed to keeping it fresh and seeing if he can hang with the character in general, imo.

All of the one's I have seen have been based on 10 match sessions.

 

[dudemcrude]

@ dudemrcrude

Maybe multiple 10 match sessions over time?

Perfect. My idea was headed toward the right direction, but this is the exact location. Let's say 5 sessions of 10 matches each stretched out over time... maybe twice a week, maybe twice a month, there's no harm in waiting a little while longer for more accurate results (of course, I'm a bio student, so I would naturally feel that way ). This also gives the respective players more chances to use their best chars in different ways and provide for a larger number of options within a specific match... ex. turtling Subbie vs. aggressive Cage, aggressive Subbie vs. turtling Cage, turtling Subbie vs. turtling Cage, etc.

In a smaller sample size, you're more likely to see a couple of guys use the same play style in each match. As that sample increases, they are more likely to employ different options and give us a broader picture of the potential outcomes.

Haha, if I were good enough to represent any of these characters, I'd volunteer myself!

 

[Konqrr]

I'm going to attempt to write a program that you could make one of these tier lists just by inputting numbers and it will generate the graphical display so I can edit it easily. The way I do it now takes at LEAST a half hour to change it around and I really don't like that.

 

[uaphysx]

Good to see you finally posting with us scorpangel. I appreciate your input.

Here Here!! , great to see you on here Scorpangel, you are truly one of the best mk2 players, and by far the best Liu Kangs around.. I learn so much everytime we play

Glad to see Liu at no. 1

 

[scorpangel]

Good to see you finally posting with us scorpangel. I appreciate your input.

Here Here!! , great to see you on here Scorpangel, you are truly one of the best mk2 players, and by far the best Liu Kangs around.. I learn so much everytime we play

Glad to see Liu at no. 1

thanks man yea liu should be #1 cuz those fireballs and bike kick we always have some good ggs when we both fight liu vs liu ;D

 

[heKtor]

Good to see you finally posting with us scorpangel. I appreciate your input.

Here Here!! , great to see you on here Scorpangel, you are truly one of the best mk2 players, and by far the best Liu Kangs around.. I learn so much everytime we play

Glad to see Liu at no. 1

thanks man yea liu should be #1 cuz those fireballs and bike kick we always have some good ggs when we both fight liu vs liu ;D

Don't forget to mention his uppercut...one of the most effective for anti-air. Scorpangel, our Liu mirror matches are fucking finger-exhausting! lol (at least to me), but all around fun though

 

[AriaDelano]

Maybe thats why I hate liu so much, hes just got too many options...he has an answer for everyone. I know this goes down to how unbalanced the game is, but I would rather go for the low tier character and try to master him. (IMO, of course). Maybe its the david & goliath mentality..

 

[Black Shroud]

You can try asian mentality which lies in finding safest attack in game, then sitting in block whole match and using that attack time to time. Then you can kill opponent with boredom ;D

 

[scheissn]

I'm going to attempt to write a program that you could make one of these tier lists just by inputting numbers and it will generate the graphical display so I can edit it easily. The way I do it now takes at LEAST a half hour to change it around and I really don't like that.

http://scheissnussen.techwayhosting.com/MK/MK2/TierGenerator/MK2Tier.swf
You can click the character pics to change them, then just input the numbers where they would normally be found on the left side.

Click that little corny red button and it will generate the rest and you can take a snap.

If you need it to be bigger, just holler.

 

[DarkMoon]

those graphs make no sense to dummys like me, please explain.

Or write a book called "Fighting Game Tiers....FOR DUMMYS"

 

[scheissn]

It is just an easier way to modify a tier list (because they always change anyway) so that you can take a snap of it, instead of redoing the entire thing every time.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jrlwDqTfzE[/youtube]

 

[Konqrr]

Cool. The numbers don't update on the right yet, seems to work ok so far. No way to save a current list?

 

[scheissn]

Cool. The numbers don't update on the right yet, seems to work ok so far. No way to save a current list?

They don't update until you press the button, that is when it does all the calculations.
There is no way to save it, other than taking a snap.

When you press the button, it is still accessible to do updates, it is just invisible so that you can take a snap without it being in the way.

 

[Konqrr]

No, I mean the totals on the far right, not filling in the rest of the grid.

 

[scheissn]

No, I mean the totals on the far right, not filling in the rest of the grid.

Yeah, I didn't even do anything with that.
I didn't even look at it at all to understand it, so I just left it alone.
I will when I get home if you explain it.

 

[Konqrr]

12 characters x 5, being the middle number (average/default, whatever) = 60

So add all 12 numbers from left to right and subtract 60.

 

[scheissn]

Should be good now.

(Dvd would like this tier list ^_^ )----------------V

Test it out plz.
Http://scheissnussen.techwayhosting.com/MK/MK2/TierGenerator/MK2Tier.swf

Talk about a picky fucking compiler
It wouldn't just let me add all that shit up and subtract from it. Everything that the user inputs was coming out as 100 times as it was entered. Somehow, dividing by 100 then multiplying by 100 made it work. Who fucking knew...

Let me know if it needs tweeked, I only compared those numbers because I tested it like 903493434 times while I was writing the code

 

[black album]

I don't play it very often, rarely, but Mileena and Jax seem to be good.

 

[black album]

Whoa, how long did you work on that for?