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MKi Rankings - SCR Update

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Well then EVO and MLG must be useless, since they use less tourney's than MKi to seed.. And also every TO who can't remember every single win or loss at every tournament in MK9 is also useless by your measuring stick.

So what are we left with?

You can't have it both ways.. Use this same form of criticism and apply it to other systems, and you'll see why this matters.

Show me a better and more complete list and I'll use it. Until then, I'm going to add as many majors as I can.

NFG
 

ecilA

Noob
CrimsonShadow

I think this actually CAN work and be a great ranking tool. You are correct that this in fact does work itself out over time and if used correctly could have a very accurate ranking system after several majors have been recorded going forward. At this point it is not accurate but more of a starting point which sets up the system for accuracy going further.

For this system to work 2 things have to happen. First is you need a starting point(which you have), and second is that once you have the starting point you need to seed all the tournaments that you count by this system.

If these things are done then it wont be perfect but it will be very good. The system gets rid of the argument of being at the TO's mercy because when you seed according to the starting point of the rankings the system does FAIRLY work itself out over time.

Here in lies the problem though. The rankings are not being used to seed these tournaments such as SCR but they are still being recorded in the rankings which DOES skew the rankings. Also, no TO is going to go EXACTLY by the numbers because they will factor in region/team mate and change the numbers to keep team mates and players from the same area apart which creates "grey area" and goes against the numbers.

I agree that who you beat is very important and that in the event of a tie the player with more quality wins deserves more points the then the other with lesser wins. The problem is that this IS at the TO's mercy right now and the system only works when the seeding of the event uses the rankings for seeding to avoid the whole being at the TO's mercy part. It is unfair to penalize someone for who they beat to be top when who they beat is randomly put in brackets at the discretion of the TO. This system is designed to be fair as far as who plays who goes because it is based on the math of your rank which is based off of your tourney performances. This is FAIR but because the seeding is NOT done by the rankings it is not fair and the system should not be used until events do use the rankings to seed. TO's also cannot separate team mates or region if the numbers say they must play early or right away. Changing the numbers for any reason including regional/team mate seeding upsets the balance of this system.

I liked the whole starting point that was posted last week and applaud CS for all this effort. He has to know though that he cannot use this system to rank going ahead until seeding is based on this system. Starting the events with this seeding is what makes sure that the outcome of the points is fair and no tourney can be rigged.

CS, this has to be put to bed until regional/team mate seeding is not given special treatment but instead goes by the numbers, and until the tournaments going forward use this system for its seeding.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
CrimsonShadow
I agree that who you beat is very important and that in the event of a tie the player with more quality wins deserves more points the then the other with lesser wins. The problem is that this IS at the TO's mercy right now and the system only works when the seeding of the event uses the rankings for seeding to avoid the whole being at the TO's mercy part. It is unfair to penalize someone for who they beat to be top when who they beat is randomly put in brackets at the discretion of the TO. This system is designed to be fair as far as who plays who goes because it is based on the math of your rank which is based off of your tourney performances. This is FAIR but because the seeding is NOT done by the rankings it is not fair and the system should not be used until events do use the rankings to seed. TO's also cannot separate team mates or region if the numbers say they must play early or right away. Changing the numbers for any reason including regional/team mate seeding upsets the balance of this system.
I hear you. Here's the point you missed though:

If that's the standard by which tournaments are seeded than nearly all major tournaments are unfair. If we use that metric, seeding for EVO is unfair, seeding for MLG was unfair, seeing for FR was unfair, seeding for SCR was unfair. You name a tournament, and if they had to have control over the seeding for all tournaments considered in their rankings to be fair, then they weren't.

If you showed up to Columbus, you were 'at the mercy of the TO'. No way around it.

So... 2 things we can do:

1) Don't seed tournaments, ever. Because seeding in general is an 'unfair' process given that we don't have complete control over every factor that leads to every win/loss of the people we're seeding.

-or-

2) Use the best system we can; put as many*complete* majors records in it as we can, and continue to make it better over time.

I can tell you which one of those two options makes more sense to me. All I'm saying is, if you use this same criticism and look at how tournaments are beeing seeded on the whole right now.. They all break down in flames a lot worse :D
 
My memories of them are making it to the AFC Championship and the Superbowl last year. HOW is that mediocre?
What you're not taking into consideration is that just because the Patriots are only 7-7 over the past few years doesn't mean their rank will become lower when compared to the rest of the NFL teams. A team like Buffalo who hasn't even made the playoffs isn't going to be close to them and all of the other teams who have made the playoffs but lost in the first two rounds will be lower as well. The only teams that are going to be ahead of the Patriots are the teams who are currently performing better in the postseason over the past 5 years such as the Giants. The rankings of individual players on this list will be based on how they've played over the past 5 or so majors and as the players go to more majors they will move up and down accordingly. Michelangelo used to be a great MK player and won a major or two but that doesn't mean he is performing better over the past year than REO just like the Patriots aren't performing as well over the past 5 years as the Giants. Its all based on what you consider to be current. If you are looking at the past year or the past 3 years, their will be a substantial change in each player's ranking on the list.
 

ecilA

Noob
Michelangelo used to be a great MK player and won a major or two but that doesn't mean he is performing better over the past year than REO just like the Patriots aren't performing as well over the past 5 years as the Giants. Its all based on what you consider to be current. If you are looking at the past year or the past 3 years, their will be a substantial change in each player's ranking on the list.

Actually a very good point only Michelangelo was not just in the grand finals of the previous major like the Patriots were in last years super bowl. Michelangelo was not just in the winners/losers finals being one win away from the grand finals, the way the Patriots were just in the AFC championship game this year, one win away from the super bowl .
 
I know, and if u used the past 5 years then the patriots would likely still be the second place team. Just because they re 7-7 in the playoffs over that time period doesnt discredit that they made it to the playoffs and/or the super bowl. When compared with other teams they will still be in second place after the giants because making the playoffs and losing is better than not making the playoffs in the first place
 

ecilA

Noob
I know, and if u used the past 5 years then the patriots would likely still be the second place team. Just because they re 7-7 in the playoffs over that time period doesnt discredit that they made it to the playoffs and/or the super bowl. When compared with other teams they will still be in second place after the giants because making the playoffs and losing is better than not making the playoffs in the first place

point was that there are still a top 4/5 team and not mediocre but if you just take the 7-7 in the last 14 post season games as the sole way to rank, that is mediocre. if you factor in where they finished they aren't a top 2 team but they are still top 4/5 and not mediocre.
 

ecilA

Noob
I hear you, but here's the point you missed:

If that's the standard by which tournaments are seeded than nearly all majors tournaments are unfair. If we use that metric, seeding for EVO is unfair, seeding for MLG was unfair, seeing for FR was unfair, seeding for SCR was unfair. You name a tournament, and if they had to have control over the seeding for all tournaments considered in their rankings to be fair, then they weren't.

If you showed up to Columbus, you were 'at the mercy of the TO'. No way around it.

So... 2 things we can do:

1) Don't seed tournaments, ever. Because seeding in general is an 'unfair' process given that we don't have complete control over every factor that leads to every win/loss of the people we're seeding.

-or-

2) Use the best system we can; put as much *complete* info in it as we can, and continue to make it better over time.

I can tell you which one of those two options makes more sense to me. All I'm saying is, if you use this same criticism and look at how tournaments are beeing seeded on the whole right now.. They all break down in flames a lot worse than MKi :D

How about we use this list like we do every list, fun to debate, and keep doing what every fighting game community does to run brackets. Thats the fun of it! There is no DEFINITIVE TOP 10 by the way its always been done. Outside of the top 3-5, top 10-15 is usually always a debate in every fighting game. The difference is that people and TO's are smart enough to know that there is no definitive top 10-50 especially in a definitive order, while your rankings act as if they are absolute and that IS not only a definitive top 10-50/100 but in the definitive order and thats where its more of a salt storm of an argument over a community debate. All the other "who is top 10", "top 20", top whatever on this site are made in debatable opinion fashion. This comes off as not debatable opinion, but a definitive list in a definitive order.

No one should get bent out of shape over this ranking system, its for fun and another list to debate. It keeps us coming to TYM at least! CS I must say that it is awesome to see all the time and work you put into something that is only a hobby for you.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The difference is that people and TO's are smart enough to know that there is no definitive top 10-50 especially in a definitive order, while your rankings act as if they are absolute and that IS not only a definitive top 10-50/100 but in the definitive order and thats where its more of a salt storm of an argument over a community debate.
I'm not sure what that sentence even means, but the list isn't 'acting' as anything. It's a list of how people have done vs. each other in tournaments. I included specific ones, explained why those tourneys are included on the website, and will continue to include as many events as I can that fit the qualifications.

Anything other than that, is people putting words in my mouth.

Compare it to what will be used to seed EVO, what was used to seed MLG, SCR, and all of the other majors.. And then explain why those systems are better. But do it based on the facts :)
 
I'm sorry that bringing up legitimate issues with a system deserves mockery. Good to know the staff is looking out for the populace.
What's there to look out for? You're putting words into Crimson's mouth, being hypocritical in your arguments, and were very disrespectful to him earlier in this thread. Don't involve the staff in a problem you've got with me personally just because your skin is paper thin.
 

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
Top players agree with the issues that have been raised with the MKI rankings, they just don't come here anymore because the quality of information on this site has drastically decreased. You can't argue with idiots because they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. This site has been hi-jacked by mouth breathers.
 

Tolkeen

/wrists
Here's an idea people, if you don't like the system... go read another thread, no matter how much you bitch Crimson will continue to update this list. And if it takes off as the seeding list of CHOICE (key word there people) then you can all create your OWN major tournament for mortal kombat, and then decide not to use it. Until then, stop stressing out, it's not like your online ranked matches are effected in any way by this thread or it's contents.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I'm sorry that bringing up legitimate issues with a system deserves mockery. Good to know the staff is looking out for the populace.
No, but claiming NFG works better than this system does. There has always been flaws with that(Not to mention it only has a top 20, while this has data for more than 20 players)
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I'm sorry that bringing up legitimate issues with a system deserves mockery. Good to know the staff is looking out for the populace.
It's not that -- it was that you didn't bring up the far more legitimate issues with every other system currently used to seed and rank players. If you apply the same measuring stick to them all, it's hard to argue that they aren't far worse.