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MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

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DaiHuu

Nightwolf Mourner
Just slightly off topic but, would all S tiers have a near automatic 5/5 match-up against each other?
Not at all, Gzus and I came to an agreement saying that NW is Sub's worse match up. As well as Johnny cage having a 3-7 match versus Sub (In my opinion at least.)
 

oZii

Noob
Not at all, Gzus and I came to an agreement saying that NW is Sub's worse match up. As well as Johnny cage having a 3-7 match versus Sub (In my opinion at least.)
Why do you say that? I mean could you go more in depth or explain a bit better.? Interested in what you have to say cause you know your NW. I played your NW its like a brick house now my Sub is bad but I can see the application at a higher level with your style of play.

I know Tom Said on a S1lent stream that he would be the NW sub matchup at 5-5.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
What needs to happen is Kung Lao's roll attack (f3 or b3 or whatever) needs to transfer to Baraka so he has a way in. Lao doesn't need this move! He has 7 ways in already!
 

DaiHuu

Nightwolf Mourner
Why do you say that? I mean could you go more in depth or explain a bit better.? Interested in what you have to say cause you know your NW. I played your NW its like a brick house now my Sub is bad but I can see the application at a higher level with your style of play.

I know Tom Said on a S1lent stream that he would be the NW sub matchup at 5-5.
Well, NW completely negates Sub's ability to zone with ice ball (not including ex), which leaves his ice clone. Which can be destroyed by just dash blocking over it, or not bothering to deal with it at all and throwing arrows with some bolts every now and then. Sub wants to push NW to the corner, but he has to do it in a way that keeps him mobile at all time or he eats a lightning bolt, if he plays like how Gzus plays. (every now and then pulls out a clone out to relieve pressure upon himself.) and NW predicts it, then an arrow or lightning would hit sub. If sub gets a knockdown and decides to pressure with a block string, then NW can charge his way out easily. Ice clone on wake up? Invincibility frames on shoulder/hatchet. (Doing a hatchet on wake up while Sub does his ice clone actually does not freeze NW)

and when NW gets in, although Sub has a invincible wake up move, it's unsafe if blocked. Nw can do nearly anything on his own wake up and it'll be safe.
 

oZii

Noob
Well, NW completely negates Sub's ability to zone with ice ball (not including ex), which leaves his ice clone. Which can be destroyed by just dash blocking over it, or not bothering to deal with it at all and throwing arrows with some bolts every now and then. Sub wants to push NW to the corner, but he has to do it in a way that keeps him mobile at all time or he eats a lightning bolt, if he plays like how Gzus plays. (every now and then pulls out a clone out to relieve pressure upon himself.) and NW predicts it, then an arrow or lightning would hit sub. If sub gets a knockdown and decides to pressure with a block string, then NW can charge his way out easily. Ice clone on wake up? Invincibility frames on shoulder/hatchet. (Doing a hatchet on wake up while Sub does his ice clone actually does not freeze NW)

and when NW gets in, although Sub has a invincible wake up move, it's unsafe if blocked. Nw can do nearly anything on his own wake up and it'll be safe.
So you think its skewed in NW favor. I thought you where saying its 3-7 Subzeros favor. Yea I cant see much sub could do outside of some few well placed freezes catching Nightwolf being sloppy.

Who gives NW the most trouble in your opinion?
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Nightwolf isn't nailing the recovery of clone outside of good reads. But once he gets close, it's hard to get him off, since wakeup slide and clone are his only ways of getting out of pressure, which is where the matchup ends up a 5-5.
 
How're you guys feeling about Sheeva?

I know Baraka's on the low end, but, man. . . I feel like they're super-friends and follow canon, power wise (enjoy getting rolled over and looking bad.)

Also, oZii, you saif "VF." You're officially my fren.
 

cyke_out

Noob
f3 is a low now

Wait.. Are you saying that they already fixed Kano's f3 and it's a low? so you can go on 360 and it's already patched?

Curse you PSN! Curse all my friends for also having PSN! In the near future, whenever we have gaming nights, I'll be forced to play with a Kano without a low f3!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
 
Wait.. Are you saying that they already fixed Kano's f3 and it's a low? so you can go on 360 and it's already patched?

Curse you PSN! Curse all my friends for also having PSN! In the near future, whenever we have gaming nights, I'll be forced to play with a Kano without a low f3!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
No, he mean that :r:fk is a low but may be wrongly coded and they are fixing that error.

Nerf Baraka.

Those fatalities are brutal!
No, buff his X-Ray, no one should survive that, make it an Instant Kill.
 

Error Macro

It April yet?
Wait.. Are you saying that they already fixed Kano's f3 and it's a low? so you can go on 360 and it's already patched?

Curse you PSN! Curse all my friends for also having PSN! In the near future, whenever we have gaming nights, I'll be forced to play with a Kano without a low f3!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

Are you trying to win a Grammy or something?
 

oZii

Noob
Wrote ":yeradick: :deadhorse:" :(
:focus:





How're you guys feeling about Sheeva?

I know Baraka's on the low end, but, man. . . I feel like they're super-friends and follow canon, power wise (enjoy getting rolled over and looking bad.)

Also, oZii, you saif "VF." You're officially my fren.



haha love VF :) Some people think sheeva is decent she has more tools than baraka thats for sure!
 

dookieagain

Last Bastion of Arcades
So since we were going to start talking about mid tier characters, I'd like to start talking about my favorite mall kop. So I'm going to break this down into strengths and weaknesses as I see them. Feel free to add anything if you know something I don't. Stryker doesn't seem like a very explored character as of yet, and the only pro I know of trying him is OnlineTony, and he hasn't been on stream yet. (Guess he didn't make top 8 at WNF. :( )

Pros:

Gunshot- Can be delayed, can be faked, start-up is meh, but it's instant once it's out. Does two hits so beats some armor. Works as a long range anti-air. Pretty much the core of his offense.

Decent damage at mid screen, netting 34% plus a reset or 37-39% Also by switching his combo ender between roll and :d :bp he can move you forwards or backwards toward the corner.

Good corner damage off both high and low combo starters, (45%) his overhead is good in the corner, can anti-air a jump attempt out of the corner to about 35-40% depending on ex.

Can use :fk to gunshot as a midscreen reset that you can't wake up from. Gunshot can be fired, or canceled into dash for throw/sweep mixup, or jump for crossup punch mixup. Not perfectly safe but good anyway.

Long range poke/anti-air in :bk causes a weird semi-stagger that you can fake gunshot/dash after. Not long enough for a safe jump, but good for a quick high/low/throw mixup and reset-ing distance. If it hits as an anti-air, nets 18% or 25% for 1 meter. Can be followed by a full combo if anti-airing the opponent into a corner.

Fast sweep and fast uppercut.

Cons:

Slow normals/chains- Nothing except :bk comes out quick. His :fk while it could be a good poke takes so long to get to active frames that it's ridiculous. :l :fk :bp is a super obvious overhead that he can be punished out of on block. He can't follow his :fp, :bp with anything. In fact his only two chains that lead to real damage are only useful as obvious punishes or after a jumping punch.

Zoning- His gunshot and grenades can be ducked. They're unsafe from midscreen, especially on whiff. The grenades are finicky and take forever to get out on screen. Teleporters can basically devastate him on reaction, and while you can fake gunshot to try and bait things the fact that you cannot block until you complete a full dash animation means that fast teleports like Raiden's still go through and he can still punish you. Also he can't keep up in a zoning war against noob. He will trade badly with clones no matter which projectile he uses, and without a teleport, and with his fast special (roll) causing them to be far, he can't even really stay on him. Worse unlike other zoning heavy characters, none of his projectiles knock down, so approaching him is much easier than approaching Noob or Shang. Also his projectiles never lead to more than 9% damage, so unlike Reptile/Shang/Ermac/Smoke, your opponent isn't afraid of being scooped into huge damage.

Bad punishes- For many things with tight punishment windows like Kung Lao's spin, his best punish is dash up :fk for 8% damage. It makes it completely worth risking things like spin/superman/shadow kick on him because his punishment is insubstantial.

Situational AA- For as much as I like :bk as an anti-air it isn't nearly as fool proof as something like up-clone or tele push. It has to be done early, it has a long window of vulnerability before active frames and even done perfectly often trades with jumping kicks. It nets him good damage, but still less than some characters, and at closer ranges he has to fall back on uppercut.

Nothing exceptional- Stryker can win, but I feel like all his tools are replicated elsewhere more effectively. He basically falls back on the basic guessing game to win. I don't feel like I'm playing the strengths of the character as much as the engine. Especially with how easily his zoning breaks down in certain matchups and the weird almost buglike issue with his fake gunshot cancel being unsafe for so long, it's hard to see how he is really supposed to be used.

Worst matchups- Hard to say since I haven't played a ton, but Noob is stupendously hard, as is Ermac, anyone who forces you to approach really, his block dash isn't super fast, so he has to block a lot on his way in, and his combo enders/specials tend to create distance. Kung Lao, since he isn't afraid of spinning you. His teleport mixup is brutal on your zoning attempts, and your anti-projectile special (roll) doesn't work against ground hat. Raiden- Honestly it feels almost unwinnable, his teleport beats everything you have for free. At the right distance you can't punish superman for any damage. His chains come out faster than anything you have. You can't ever whiff an attack against him. It's just bad.

Also I haven't played a good one since PowerUp but I feel like Reptile is probably a bad match too. If your zoning trades he wins because he gets a full combo. Plus he gets most of his good damage opportunities from crossup jumpin punch which Reptile gets out of for free. Also reptile doesn't approach much by jumping, so you can't expect to pick up anti-air damage either.

I have a feeling Smoke/Shang are probably bad matchups too if only because trading projectiles against them costs you so much.
 
Practice up kiddies.

Buff everyone below the Top 6, Nerf no one...yet.
The game is new. "work through, find a way..."

You can't sit here and deny the call for some nerfs, while at the same time talk about wanting buffs. That goes for everybody.

Keep in mind, that I'm with you about buffs being far better than nerfs, cause no one wants shit that's weak. We all want options.

I personally strive for balance and viable options.
 

Sequel

Boob Titbot
Right now buffs are more positive than nerfs and are far easier to point out. Nerfs tend to create a rift between the player who mains the character and the other player who is getting owned by that very character. The player who is getting owned may just not have the level of experience/skill needed in order to counter the character at this point in time. So calling for the nerf stick is premature at BEST (I can name countless times and games that premature nerf calling has happened before - don't argue this).

This has been my point all along, I can't help the sensitive posters on this board who get riled up over how Tom or myself have been addressing fellow members of the site. Relax and try and respect the experience we have with the game.

Edit: One more thing. There was NOT a single Sagat player in Top 8 @ EVO 2009. Yet Sagat was considered S Tier by almost everyone around the world. While this doesn't justify his broken tier position it just goes to show you that no matter how broken a character is, it doesn't mean he is abused to the point of automatically winning the biggest tournament of the year.
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
What needs to happen is Kung Lao's roll attack (f3 or b3 or whatever) needs to transfer to Baraka so he has a way in. Lao doesn't need this move! He has 7 ways in already!

no no silly Kung Lao is fine he needs every tool in the game -_-
 
Right now buffs are more positive than nerfs and are far easier to point out. Nerfs tend to create a rift between the player who mains the character and the other player who is getting owned by that very character. The player who is getting owned may just not have the level of experience/skill needed in order to counter the character at this point in time. So calling for the nerf stick is premature at BEST (I can name countless times and games that premature nerf calling has happened before - don't argue this).

This has been my point all along, I can't help the sensitive posters on this board who get riled up over how Tom or myself have been addressing fellow members of the site. Relax and try and respect the experience we have with the game.

Edit: One more thing. There was NOT a single Sagat player in Top 8 @ EVO 2009. Yet Sagat was considered S Tier by almost everyone around the world. While this doesn't justify his broken tier position it just goes to show you that no matter how broken a character is, it doesn't mean he is abused to the point of automatically winning the biggest tournament of the year.
You jump the gun.

First and foremost, your argument is weak, because the same exact points you make can also be said on the flipside, every. single. one of them. Calling for a buff is also premature. If changes for the game don't get made from here on out, then so be it. This is all discussion and quite frankly dudes in here speaking with some pretty high and mighty overtones, and could possibly be more riled up than the persons they would accuse.

People honestly don't have to take a single thing I say seriously, because my username is grayed out and lacks color.(somewhat sarcastic)

Second, Buffs are more positive than nerfs by nature of the term. Because buffs add, while nerfs take away. I think it's outright silly that people would say one thing about someone talking about nerfs, but go on to mention buffs with no further detailed discussion(but talks about nerfs did), and their word gets instantly taken as gospel without question to at least find more of why(so inner workings of the game get discussed more).

Third, I'm not a sensitive poster, and I'm very far from being riled up(and please don't let the length of this response fool you). I've seen and done plenty of things in my lifetime, that forum discussion ranks low on the scale of riling me up. Some things you may have said to other members, but you didn't say them to me, so I don't even take offense in the slightest from our posts to each other.

Forth it isn't about a character being S tier and broken to the point of having automatic wins. Player skill holds a precedent or priority over a tier ranking, and if the absolute best players in a given game play the S tier then they will win it at much more consistency, especially if that character fits them like a glove. Some of the best players in that game(SF4) just didn't use Sagat, so top 8 Evo 2009 data is far from being 100% without bias. The best players in that game would be in the top 8 regardless of their character selection, especially when the game was far from being outrageously unbalanced in capcom perspective.

You tell me to relax, but I am relaxed, and to respect your experience in the game. I already do respect everyone's experience in this game, whether they're brand new or have had access to the game for months prior. You should also keep in mind that plenty of people here have experience in other fighters or in other games, in some way shape or form, whether people know about it(tournament results) or not(local legend, smaller community name, etc). What I ask of you, is to also respect everyone else's experiences and perspectives in the game, and to at least understand where someone is coming from instead of talking about them being riled up or crying.

I'm trying to give everyone I speak with on this forum, the utmost. And I expect the same in return. I speak with everyone here as if we were sitting down talking about MK while either playing the game against each other, having a drink(though I'm not a drinker anymore), smoking a bowl, or just having a good time trying to keep things civilized.
 

oZii

Noob
Right now buffs are more positive than nerfs and are far easier to point out. Nerfs tend to create a rift between the player who mains the character and the other player who is getting owned by that very character. The player who is getting owned may just not have the level of experience/skill needed in order to counter the character at this point in time. So calling for the nerf stick is premature at BEST (I can name countless times and games that premature nerf calling has happened before - don't argue this).

This has been my point all along, I can't help the sensitive posters on this board who get riled up over how Tom or myself have been addressing fellow members of the site. Relax and try and respect the experience we have with the game.

Edit: One more thing. There was NOT a single Sagat player in Top 8 @ EVO 2009. Yet Sagat was considered S Tier by almost everyone around the world. While this doesn't justify his broken tier position it just goes to show you that no matter how broken a character is, it doesn't mean he is abused to the point of automatically winning the biggest tournament of the year.
Bottom line and probably more of a reality:

If Tom Brady says the spin is fine and he has direct access to the devs then it probably won't change. If it does oh well if it doesn't oh well. I like talking about the game nerf or buff or anything else relating to MK.

Fact: This is a General discussion about the characters and tiers regardless and in this Thread regardless if Jesus himself came into this thread and said the Spin is fine it doesn't matter cause in this Thread its allowed to talk about or state ones Opinion about the spin a character or Shao Kahn. That is not derailing the thread at all.

Calling people crybabies or whiners or any name because you disagree with their opinion is cool if that is what you consider healthy discussion. You just have to know that not everyone is going to say ok topic is dead Sequel has spoken or even topic is dead Tom has spoken.

Alot of flame baiting and trolling started cause people started to use names and indirect snide remarks and internet memes. Its cool I hit up Tim he said just have the thick skin hasnt seen anything wrong with with anything posted so far (the on topic and off topic stuff). I wanted to make sure I didn't have a ban coming for responding to people who are name calling. So if you want to keep derailing the thread but trying to keep it relevant by posting some of your mk knowledge while taking snipes thats ok you just have to expect people will snipe back. Some people will ignore your comments some people respond. Nobody is anyones kids in here.

Also I find it interesting that you seem to exercise some sort of elitism toward anyone with out a blue green purple red name or whatever. Some of the same people have responded in defense because they feel like they are also being called crybabies or whiners. You take no snipes at them you don't quote them.

So we can either let it die (the hostility) or have normal civilized discussion and actually provide something. I can let it die no problem cause I don't care.

I'll point to TeamLiquid (where I have 800 posts) and Starcraft 2 which is a much harsher place than here. This kind of hostility is easy for me to deal with when I understand how the admin views it. I hold a High Rank in Starcraft 2 (Masters League) balance is always brought up and they are on patch 1.3.2 right now. I know nerfing to early or to late is bad or can be bad but I know it also can be good because of peoples view is skewed regardless if your high or low rank. Devs take data into consideration, feedback, and testing.

No one is off topic, derailing, flaming, trolling, being a idiot, whining, or whatever if they bring up the Spin, Shao Kahn, Goro, or any character in the cast.

Like I said Ill drop the hostility but Im going to respond if someone says something that seems like flaming and I take it as indirectly or directly pointed my way. You can do the same we just will continue to have people respond and clog this thread up with nonsense that doesnt relate to the topic. So people can choose there words better or keep trolling and baiting each other.
 

oZii

Noob
So whats yalls stance on Noob?
Hey Did you play at the IE tonight? I saw you posted in that thread saying you where going to show up. I watched it and Saw Chefs reptile (very nice) I saw Aris and Black Hawk.

Edit:
Wait Looking at your PSN name and remembering chat I remember now. Sorry to hear that man that you couldn't make.

I like Noob he just seems tricky to place. I know one of his main criticisms is his damage output but I think as the game develops he might raise up in the tier rankings a little bit. He has some good tools that are risky. I think if you go back to page 2-3 of this thread a guy was makiing a case for Noob that he should be higher someone said that his moves are to risky he can mix you up good but to do so it more riskier than other characters.
 

Sequel

Boob Titbot
Calling people crybabies or whiners or any name because you disagree with their opinion is cool if that is what you consider healthy discussion.
I never called anyone a crybaby or whiner or any names for that matter. Show me where (I just searched to make sure and the only person who used the word crybabies was the poster "PSN" as a remark against nerfing Kung Lao to appease online players). Saying someone (mind you this was a general someone not anyone specific) is "crying for nerfs" is very different from DIRECTLY calling someone a crybaby or whiner. Get your facts straight before you accuse a mod of something.

End of discussion. Furthermore on this will result in an infraction. Govern yourself accordingly.
 
In either case, there should be no major buffs/nerfs until a few more months due to how the metagame changes so rapidly after a game release. By Evo there should be a good amount of information to be used to decide whether XYZ needs a buff or nerf. The only major exceptions are characters that almost everybody (even developers) can agree on being just plain bad, having no tools to even be remotely concieved as viable.

But in the mean time, slight adjustments are (imo.) ok ( ie. bug fixes, tweaking hitboxes slightly, tweaking numbers) etc etc.
 

Sequel

Boob Titbot
You jump the gun.

Third, I'm not a sensitive poster, and I'm very far from being riled up(and please don't let the length of this response fool you). I've seen and done plenty of things in my lifetime, that forum discussion ranks low on the scale of riling me up. Some things you may have said to other members, but you didn't say them to me, so I don't even take offense in the slightest from our posts to each other.
No, you jumped the gun. That post wasn't directed to you personally. It may have looked that way because I posted it right after you but I can assure you it wasn't meant to be directed at you.
 
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