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MK11's Gimped Neutral

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Premium Supporter
Wish it was that easy. I think even when I get to that level of skill I'll still be memed and my mental health struggles will be straw manned for memes.
As I said, if you truly have a history with mental illness as you say, that's nothing to be targeted for. Even with the whole "charging people for info" issue, I'm not gonna give you any shit for your battle. I've been there myself, it's not something I'd wish on anyone.

I'll leave it at that, but I do truly wish you the best with regards to your mental health and hope you can find some peace with it.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
As I said, if you truly have a history with mental illness as you say, that's nothing to be targeted for. Even with the whole "charging people for info" issue, I'm not gonna give you any shit for your battle. I've been there myself, it's not something I'd wish on anyone.

I'll leave it at that, but I do truly wish you the best with regards to your mental health and hope you can find some peace with it.
That Shaolin guy is grossly exaggerating. I suffer from pretty stock severe depression. Yes I charged people for info, but people didn't know the story. I needed that money. I paid bills with it. I live in a town where jobs that last are near impossible to find and I'm literally unable to obtain internet speeds fast enough to satisfy the minimum for stay at home jobs. People are just being cruel and pedantic tbh. I'd do it all over again, because I actually had to.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I’ve never gotten several reports from the same thread where the reports were from DIFFERENT posts. I’m sorry but that’s not only amazing but hilarious.

And Chernyy knows he brings it on himself. If HE has a problem with it I will deal with it. So to clarify, Cherny has never complained or reported any toxicity or trolling towards him.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
A good example of how it degenerates the pressure and mind games.

Erron's d4 right? In a game where this didn't exist (I've labbed this), he would have to commit to one of his more punishable mid strings, or do forward dash 21, or do f32. There's risk to all of this right? If he does b222 it whiffs.

HOWEVER, if he just does ffb2 after his d4 connects, he checks you with b2 no matter what. This movement creates a lot of these one note situations instead of giving us layered situations.
Dash canceling into a normal doesn't cut off startup frames. If you do a 7f normal without dash its 7f startup same as if you DC into 7f but adds frames foe the dash. The farther forward you want to go the more frames are added onto the normal. You can test this easily by finding a move that is -7 on block that leaves opponent farther than standing one range. Use your 7 frame starter on That -7 move after blocking and try to punish it with dash cancel. You can't because it adds frames to dash into buttons.
You can buffer specials on reversal to make them come out the next frame but wONt cut off startup
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I’ve never gotten several reports from the same thread where the reports were from DIFFERENT posts. I’m sorry but that’s not only amazing but hilarious.

And Chernyy knows he brings it on himself. If HE has a problem with it I will deal with it. So to clarify, Cherny has never complained or reported any toxicity or trolling towards him.
I just try to ignore it or make a comment and move on. I'm not gonna be a bitch and sick mods on anybody.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
I just tested myself, and the video is a bit disingenuous, and has nothing to do with footies/neutral - its setplay. If Liu does it frame perfectly then you can trade with a 7 frame normal, at which case you're probably at advantage because Liu's f4 doesn't have a ton of hit advantage. 6 frame buttons will always beat the dash cancel f4. Liu's not going to do this frame perfectly every time, and if they try to, it just exposes themselves to people full punishing the gap in the string. If you have to hold one more loop of f43u3, its really not a big deal.

This all didn't start with the frame data charging btw, that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Mental health issues do not excuse or justify toxicity, real or fake.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I just tested myself, and the video is a bit disingenuous, and has nothing to do with footies/neutral - its setplay. If Liu does it frame perfectly then you can trade with a 7 frame normal, at which case you're probably at advantage because Liu's f4 doesn't have a ton of hit advantage. 6 frame buttons will always beat the dash cancel f4. Liu's not going to do this frame perfectly every time, and if they try to, it just exposes themselves to people full punishing the gap in the string. If you have to hold one more loop of f43u3, its really not a big deal.

This all didn't start with the frame data charging btw, that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Mental health issues do not excuse or justify toxicity, real or fake.
Do you main Liu Kang?
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
That's what you are talking about? ChErnyy That doesn't shave off frames..

They could do this on a read when they know you are going to Backdash but that's basically the only time its applicable because they are adding 3-6 frame gap after F43U3(gap)F4
This existed in many MKs including MKX but X had invlunerbility In BackDashes.

This is far from broke and the farther the distance they have to cover the bigger the gap. The tightest you can do this is 2 frames but it requires just frame inputs and none are doing that consistently.

If you are a female vs liu his F4 will Wiff but this isn't new stuff man. This is part of the meta on week two.

So let's say I do F43U3 dash cancel F4 perfectly That leaves a 11-15f gap depending on execution. If they do this they risk getting poked or combined where they dash cancel on reads. They can't do it all the time and besides I wouldn't try bsckdashing LIu kangaroo right after he is plus anyways I'd rather Backdash into normal at max footsie range or just outside of it. If your opponent is always dash canceling you need to take into account there range after dash as well. Nothing broke about it.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Nope, I main Jax. I think Liu is flowchart and annoying, but this particular thing is not a big deal.
I think you're super downplaying how this trivializes and diminishes mind games with any kind of spacing or up close but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. There's what, 2 6f buttons in the game? Everyone else is fucked.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
That's what you are talking about? ChErnyy That doesn't shave off frames..

They could do this on a read when they know you are going to Backdash but that's basically the only time its applicable because they are adding 3-6 frame gap after F43U3(gap)F4
This existed in many MKs including MKX but X had invlunerbility In BackDashes.

This is far from broke and the farther the distance they have to cover the bigger the gap. The tightest you can do this is 2 frames but it requires just frame inputs and none are doing that consistently.

If you are a female vs liu his F4 will Wiff but this isn't new stuff man. This is part of the meta on week two.

So let's say I do F43U3 dash cancel F4 perfectly That leaves a 11-15f gap depending on execution. If they do this they risk getting poked or combined where they dash cancel on reads. They can't do it all the time and besides I wouldn't try bsckdashing LIu kangaroo right after he is plus anyways I'd rather Backdash into normal at max footsie range or just outside of it. If your opponent is always dash canceling you need to take into account there range after dash as well. Nothing broke about it

"They could do this on a read when they know you are going to Backdash but that's basically the only time its applicable because they are adding 3-6 frame gap after F43U3(gap)F4
This existed in many MKs including MKX but X had invlunerbility In BackDashes."

If this is true my 7f S1 should be beating the attempt, but the S1 doesn't even have time to come out. Not sure why you ignored that aspect. It has time to come out if they DON'T dash cancel the next f4. Dash cancelling it completely stuffs it.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I think you're super downplaying how this trivializes and diminishes mind games with any kind of spacing or up close but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. There's what, 2 6f buttons in the game? Everyone else is fucked.
When using this to cover Distance and If you are frame perfect its a 10f or bigger gap interuptable by 9f which everyone has. And that's not even considering sloppy execution which adds more. If they do it 3f its a 12 frame gap. Then factor in travel time when applying this to longer distances that require full dash. The longer the distance you cover with dash the bigger the gap.

The point of it is dash canceling doesn't shave off startup frames. You are trading frames till you hit for distance covered. This should be known since day 1. The moment I figured out Backdash didn't have invulnerability frames on startup I knew not to use Backdash to escape pressure up close.
 
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LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Well I'm able to interrupt it with 7f starter (trading and punish with ErrOn/Subs/Geras D1. I even buffered it, maybe you aren't timing the punish perfectly?
 
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Reactions: SLy

JTC

ABILITY TO FREEZE
You claim there's a neutral problem because a character can walk forward and hit their opponents...

LMFAO ok.

Instantly closed the video the moment you were talking about Shang's b1, that enough drivel for one day. However what i got from the 2 mins of watching the vid is that YOU dont understand neutral in general.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
You claim there's a neutral problem because a character can walk forward and hit their opponents...

LMFAO ok.

Instantly closed the video the moment you were talking about Shang's b1, that enough drivel for one day. However what i got from the 2 mins of watching the vid is that YOU dont understand neutral in general.
I also made it to around the 2:45 mark but I don't agree at all. I forward buffer my F2 and backdash buffer with Cetrion all the time. It's actually a part of the neutral game, as other characters have their strengths too within their toolkit. I couldn't disagree more with the reasoning.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
I think you're super downplaying how this trivializes and diminishes mind games with any kind of spacing or up close but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. There's what, 2 6f buttons in the game? Everyone else is fucked.
Except this requires Liu to execute this frame perfect with the best case scenario of trading (if we can assume Liu is frame perfect, we can assume the other player is frame perfect as well). Cool, he forced a trade. I didn't do that much research but Liu's f4 has 9 frames of hit adv, and every other 7 frame button I briefly looked (and iirc most if not all players have at had 13f hit adv, so its a situation in the favor of the opponent.

This is super meta-gamey and unrealistic but that's what you seem to want with these discussions - now we're back to the original mixup of back dash vs. no back dash, but now its poke vs. no poke - they're basically the same.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
If you are frame perfect its a 10f gap interuptable by 9f which everyone has. And that's not even considering sloppy execution which adds more. If they do it 3f its a 12 frame gap. Then factor in travel time when applying this to longer distances that require full dash. The longer the distance you cover with dash the bigger the gap.
Are you sure you're inputting Liu's dash cancel f4 fast enough? Maybe I was doing something weird/wrong, but I got it tight enough that I could only trade with 7f buttons.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Are you sure you're inputting Liu's dash cancel f4 fast enough? Maybe I was doing something weird/wrong, but I got it tight enough that I could only trade with 7f buttons.
No you are right its a 7f gap I was talking about doing it further range to close gaps. I'll update it cuz the way I said it is confusing

But yeah 6f punishes, 7f trades to reset neutral.
But if he was to apply this to Closing gaps longer than D1 ranges there will be a huge gap.
 

kcd117

Noob
Idk guys, I see that there is a lot of Cherny hate here on TYM and I can see where it comes from (really, I think he does have the natural talent to say and do some of the dumbest things I have ever seen on the internet), but he is kinda right on this one...

Riskless movement is bad. Dash cancel is the worst mechanic to ever make it into this game bc it makes the process of quickly covering a lot of ground forward and backward riskless. Walking is already there for this specific reason! Dashing should not serve the same purpose.

Characters like Cetrion and Sub, for example, are able to show how broken this mechanic can be.

Cetrion is a stupid character, she has some really dumb tools that shut a lot of characters down from the mid to long range game, but when you get close to her, she has all of those staggers into dashes and backdashes that makes your normals whiff and give her free punishes. Cetrion's dashes make you second guess everything you wanna do in neutral bc they cover a lot of ground, are hella fast and can be canceled into anything whenever she feels like.

Sub can play the iceball game the entire match. If he feels like 50/50ing you to death to maybe make a comeback you better pray bc no one is having success fuzzying the low/over mixups when he starts to dash in and out of his mix range canceling it with his F2, B3, B1, B2, D4. Hell, he can even B31 into a backdash to punish your poke attempt with another B31! Not to mention that he is probably the best character in this game at dashing up on you to throw whenever he wants to bc if you start to try to punish him he'll just cancel his dash in another normal and get you anyway.

Some of the projectile recoveries are also hella dumb. For some characters, I can understand, they are designed to be dedicated zoners, theirs should be more reliable, but still, some could use a touch (I'm looking at you, Sonya).

I can't think of a single reasonable good aspect of being able to cancel dashes at any time with no risk.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Idk guys, I see that there is a lot of Cherny hate here on TYM and I can see where it comes from (really, I think he does have the natural talent to say and do some of the dumbest things I have ever seen on the internet), but he is kinda right on this one...

Riskless movement is bad. Dash cancel is the worst mechanic to ever make it into this game bc it makes the process of quickly covering a lot of ground forward and backward riskless. Walking is already there for this specific reason! Dashing should not serve the same purpose.

Characters like Cetrion and Sub, for example, are able to show how broken this mechanic can be.

Cetrion is a stupid character, she has some really dumb tools that shut a lot of characters down from the mid to long range game, but when you get close to her, she has all of those staggers into dashes and backdashes that makes your normals whiff and give her free punishes. Cetrion's dashes make you second guess everything you wanna do in neutral bc they cover a lot of ground, are hella fast and can be canceled into anything whenever she feels like.

Sub can play the iceball game the entire match. If he feels like 50/50ing you to death to maybe make a comeback you better pray bc no one is having success fuzzying the low/over mixups when he starts to dash in and out of his mix range canceling it with his F2, B3, B1, B2, D4. Hell, he can even B31 into a backdash to punish your poke attempt with another B31! Not to mention that he is probably the best character in this game at dashing up on you to throw whenever he wants to bc if you start to try to punish him he'll just cancel his dash in another normal and get you anyway.

Some of the projectile recoveries are also hella dumb. For some characters, I can understand, they are designed to be dedicated zoners, theirs should be more reliable, but still, some could use a touch (I'm looking at you, Sonya).

I can't think of a single reasonable good aspect of being able to cancel dashes at any time with no risk.
Well he purposed to remove canceling dashes into buttons which would ruin so many characters. I'd be fine with Dash Block cancels bring removed but not canceling into normals.