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MK11's Gimped Neutral

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
I don’t think using dash cancels to extend range is a problem. Especially since most the cast has good overall movement. It makes playing footsies different, but not impossible.

If NRS wants MK11 to play how they marketed it, they’d have to adjust so many special moves.

I really wish there were projectile collisions though.
 

DixieFlatline78

En garde. I'll let you try my Wu Tang style
Idk how dash up F1 is much different from dash up LP. SF doesnt have hit levels like MK does, so they essentially fill the same role. SF's dashes are faster too so they ultimately come out at the same time. So if someone's gonna dash up with a ten frame normal, you can preemptively throw out your 14 frame, long range normal to catch them during their dash

Sounds like footsies to me
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I mean if she is she's wrong? This game has legit issues with how it's meta has panned out.
CHerny you have the right to your opinion but I don't think you have the right to mock others opinions no one should be rude to you or bully.
With that said I feel you may be wrong about the game.
You said:
"Zoning is to strong and ruins footsie, needs more recovery"
If anything ruins footsie its things like Hell Port, Fatal Blows and Teleports.
Zoning is effective in this game but not too strong since there are universal counters to every projectile in this game. Johnny's fireball is probably the worst example for zoning being to strong it wiffs on crouch block?


"Dash canceling into a normal is too strong, makes moves have far to much range only adding 1 frame to startup"
This is not true, yes you can add range but its at the cost of 5-15 additional frames startup basically can make you lose the trade. Wiff punishing is a huge part of MK11 and I genuinely have no clue how you think otherwise. Literally the number 1 opener we seen at: Combo Breaker, CEO and Viennality. I'm having no problem baiting wiffs or auto shimmy.

You are basically saying the game doesn't play the way you want it too so let's change it its scrubby? You should just adapt, find counters. If you are getting mixed then out space your opponent to limit thier options. If you are getting throw'd left and right space yourself out if that range or learn tech OS.
 

JSF

Waiting for Injustice 3
No, if she's laughing at you, she's right because you're a joke that tried to get others to pay you for knowledge of the game prior to its release.
oh so this is why everyone hates cherny lol i knew it had to be something.

about the video @Chernyy Volk you are right that the neutral in this game has an issue but i dont think dash canceling is it or solves it. but characters having fast far reaching normals and amazing walkspeed while others have slow far reaching normals and slow walkspeed is a pretty stupid thing. maybe make walkspeed universal and give longe range normals more whiff and block recovery so they arent abusable? basicallt make everyone feel like frost for whiffing a b2. also you're hated on TYM just make a new account new name and go from there because 99% of this site/community will flame you wherever you are unless you go to tournaments and start washing known players
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I've dissagreed with nearly every post CV has made but that doesn't mean anyone should be rude to him or bully him off here. TYM is a community not a select group of friends we choose to have. No one should be attacking any member. No need to agree with them on everything but its getting old seeing the your not welcome here post on TYM lately.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
CHerny you have the right to your opinion but I don't think you have the right to mock others opinions no one should be rude to you or bully.
With that said I feel you may be wrong about the game.
You said:
"Zoning is to strong and ruins footsie, needs more recovery"
If anything ruins footsie its things like Hell Port, Fatal Blows and Teleports.
Zoning is effective in this game but not too strong since there are universal counters to every projectile in this game. Johnny's fireball is probably the worst example for zoning being to strong it wiffs on crouch block?


"Dash canceling into a normal is too strong, makes moves have far to much range only adding 1 frame to startup"
This is not true, yes you can add range but its at the cost of 5-15 additional frames startup basically can make you lose the trade. Wiff punishing is a huge part of MK11 and I genuinely have no clue how you think otherwise. Literally the number 1 opener we seen at: Combo Breaker, CEO and Viennality. I'm having no problem baiting wiffs or auto shimmy.

You are basically saying the game doesn't play the way you want it too so let's change it its scrubby? You should just adapt, find counters. If you are getting mixed then out space your opponent to limit thier options. If you are getting throw'd left and right space yourself out if that range or learn tech OS.
I've been posting examples on my twitter today of it appearing that dash canceling actually shaves off frames. On block pushback situations where the character is minus, yet pokes by the other character are flat out beaten, but not beaten when the followup normal isn't dash cancelled. I've messed with this quite a bit and looked at situations in practice mode.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I don’t think using dash cancels to extend range is a problem. Especially since most the cast has good overall movement. It makes playing footsies different, but not impossible.

If NRS wants MK11 to play how they marketed it, they’d have to adjust so many special moves.

I really wish there were projectile collisions though.
My problem is there's lots of pushback stuff in this game, plus frames, that are obviously meant to give you shimmy potential, not immediate pressure, or to fully lose your turn. Dash canceling eliminates a lot of mindgames.
 

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
My problem is there's lots of pushback stuff in this game, plus frames, that are obviously meant to give you shimmy potential, not immediate pressure, or to fully lose your turn. Dash canceling eliminates a lot of mindgames.
Yeah you got a good point there. NRS loves advancing normals tho. It seems like all the punishable moves have a lot of pushback, & the safe moves have little to none lol.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Okay, I watched the video, and you don't fully define footsies but only use a part of it and that fits your argument, but it's not actually true. Isn't using a dash playing footsies? You're closing in the distance so that your normal attacks will get the opponent. And it doesn't prevent your opponent from walking backwards to force a whiff or block and walk back. I did notice that some attacks have way too much range to try and whiff punish, but isn't that the point of advancing mids? And isn't that still playing footsies?

Johny players use B34 to whiff punish all the time and you don't need to dash, @FoughtDragon01
Footsies to me is space manipulation, mind games etc to get people to whiff in the mid range. You're right, dashing is part of footsies, advancing normals are part of footsies, I'm not criticizing or taking issue with any of that at all. The problem is dash cancel range extension on normals and the synergie with zoning it all has. The game has no mid range as a result.
 

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
I've been posting examples on my twitter today of it appearing that dash canceling actually shaves off frames. On block pushback situations where the character is minus, yet pokes by the other character are flat out beaten, but not beaten when the followup normal isn't dash cancelled. I've messed with this quite a bit and looked at situations in practice mode.
That's interesting. What's a good example to investigate?
 

Vslayer

Curses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
My problem is there's lots of pushback stuff in this game, plus frames, that are obviously meant to give you shimmy potential, not immediate pressure, or to fully lose your turn. Dash canceling eliminates a lot of mindgames.
Did you lab the difference let's say between doing a dash cancel when your enemy is backing up and comparing it to a normal advancing move? I don't think there would be that much of a difference. Maybe it does help at the beginning of the match to throw people off, but if they back up, shouldn't they avoid it anyways?

But what you say is right, I mean, dash cancelling does close in the distance faster. An example is like when I use Kano's F1 and dash cancel into a grab, most people don't expect it at all. If you don't dash cancel, you're not in throw range.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Yeah you got a good point there. NRS loves advancing normals tho. It seems like all the punishable moves have a lot of pushback, & the safe moves have little to none lol.
A good example of how it degenerates the pressure and mind games.

Erron's d4 right? In a game where this didn't exist (I've labbed this), he would have to commit to one of his more punishable mid strings, or do forward dash 21, or do f32. There's risk to all of this right? If he does b222 it whiffs.

HOWEVER, if he just does ffb2 after his d4 connects, he checks you with b2 no matter what. This movement creates a lot of these one note situations instead of giving us layered situations.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Did you lab the difference let's say between doing a dash cancel when your enemy is backing up and comparing it to a normal advancing move? I don't think there would be that much of a difference. Maybe it does help at the beginning of the match to throw people off, but if they back up, shouldn't they avoid it anyways?

But what you say is right, I mean, dash cancelling does close in the distance faster. An example is like when I use Kano's F1 and dash cancel into a grab, most people don't expect it at all. If you don't dash cancel, you're not in throw range.
I think I'd need another human to test that. I do know that, if the Liu Kang knows it, f4 is literally unavoidable at the start of a match pretty much.
 

Vslayer

Curses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
I think I'd need another human to test that. I do know that, if the Liu Kang knows it, f4 is literally unavoidable at the start of a match pretty much.
Still is a good strategy to throw people off tho, I don't think it kills the footsies game, but it does add another layer. I think we'd need to lab this for a while to see how good it actually is. Good find tho.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
That's interesting. What's a good example to investigate?
Post Liu Kang f43u3. If you just do another f43, you can backdash it completely and force a whiff which would result in some mind games and the Liu having to think about more than just checking you. If he simply buffers fff4 though during the recovery of f43u3, the f4 not only hits you for backdashing, trying to jump, or pressing buttons, it comes out so fast you don't even get the time to move. It's crazy. Twitter is down right now or else I'd link it.
 

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
A good example of how it degenerates the pressure and mind games.

Erron's d4 right? In a game where this didn't exist (I've labbed this), he would have to commit to one of his more punishable mid strings, or do forward dash 21, or do f32. There's risk to all of this right? If he does b222 it whiffs.

HOWEVER, if he just does ffb2 after his d4 connects, he checks you with b2 no matter what. This movement creates a lot of these one note situations instead of giving us layered situations.
EB is busted lol. Even without f4 his free cancels make him dangerous.

I remember REO posted a video of how to counter his f4 with jabs, but it’s pie in the sky lol. You’d have to have godlike reactions to do it.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
oh so this is why everyone hates cherny lol i knew it had to be something.

about the video @Chernyy Volk you are right that the neutral in this game has an issue but i dont think dash canceling is it or solves it. but characters having fast far reaching normals and amazing walkspeed while others have slow far reaching normals and slow walkspeed is a pretty stupid thing. maybe make walkspeed universal and give longe range normals more whiff and block recovery so they arent abusable? basicallt make everyone feel like frost for whiffing a b2. also you're hated on TYM just make a new account new name and go from there because 99% of this site/community will flame you wherever you are unless you go to tournaments and start washing known players
Wish it was that easy. I think even when I get to that level of skill I'll still be memed and my mental health struggles will be straw manned for memes.