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MK11 Zoning Discussion

Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
MK11 is looking to be the most honest competitive fighter NRS has made yet.

No more cheesy armored reversals when your negative on block.
No more safe 50/50s leading into full combos
No more crazy wakeups
No more "fuck the neutral" characters

They want the focus to be on spacing, footsies, and fundamentals.

But with the focus on the neutral now, the one fear some have is that zoning might be too strong and uninteresting. So far there have been a ton of good zoning tools shown too.

Something to note though is that so far most characters have shown to have tools in their kit that give the finger to strong zoning. While armor isn't common in this game, everyone seems to have a tool that makes people think twice about throwing a projectile (kind of like how practically everyone has one in SF5).

This means in some matchups, zoners will be forced to severely limit their projectile game so they'll have to play much more methodically. It also opens up the amount of playstyles that are successful.

This'll limit the amount of matchups that have someone walking in on bullethell scenarios which aren't broken by any means, but a bore to watch as a spectator.

I personally think because of these tools, Flawless Block, and improved walk speeds that things will be fine.

Scorpion: Hell port (base moveset)

Baraka: Armored Flag Rush (variation special move)

Geras: Quicksand(projectile immune)/Sand Simulacrum (variation special moves)

Raiden: Teleport (variation special move)

Skarlet: Bloodport (variation special move)

Jade: Projectile Immunity (base moveset) // Diagonal Air Glaive and Projectile Reflect (variation special moves)

Kabal: Diagonal Air Blade (base moveset) // Air Dash (variation special move)

Subzero: Slide (base moveset) / Diagonal Air Axe (variation special move)

Sonya: Diagonal Air Energy Rings (variation special move)


So what are everyone's thoughts, predictions, or concerns on zoning in MK11 so far?
 
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Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Invincible Salads said:
salty?
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I've never really minded strong zoning.

I actually like the rush I get working my way in. I think it comes from me playing so much SF4 originally before jumping into the NRS scene. It's why I prefer grapplers.

My whole point is that the way NRS has done strong zoning in the past has turned off players from continuing to follow the game in general. It's not that it's broken, it's just that it's a bore to spectate.

Throughout the life of Injustice2, there was some really strong zoning that wasn't actually too unbalanced, but it REALLY effected the amount of people who liked to watch the game.

I still want there to be good zoners in the game. (Jade/Skarlet)

I just don't want it to be TOO STRONG and it be the go-to strategy the game has to win the majority of the time.
 
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GLoRToR

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Circus said:
If you ran TYM pre-release of a game there would be no threads at all lol.

No opinions, no speculation, just "look how pretty this is".
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There are plenty of topics that I'm fine discussing but NRS said it themselves: Game balance is not done yet. No point worrying about it.
 
xWildx

xWildx

What a day. What a lovely day.
The only reason anyone is even mildly concerned about the zoning is because of that damn reveal event that featured top players spamming the most easily abusable move that they could find after playing the game for 45 minutes.

I doubt that zoning will seem as strong once people finally get a chance to play the game.
 
NothingPersonal

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
It does seem to have better zoning potentian than MKX, mostly due to no run I think. But most chars so far can do damage from almost jump distance, so there's no need to get really close. I think it looks fine for now, but a little more movement would be nice, maybe better dashes.
 
MrWarMachine

MrWarMachine

Jacqui/D'Vorah 2020
honestly, people will bitch about zoning until the sun dies, it doesn't matter whether it's actually that strong or not. Most people are so used to hitting their little brother/cousin for spamming that shit that they can't handle it happening to them online.

So far, the game seems to have a lot of anti-zoning options, and it doesn't seem like the screen/arena allows for that hardcore of zoning, but i guess we'll find out in April.
 
legion666

legion666

Champion
MK9 had super strong zoning. You can see that by looking at top tiers like Kabal (can do anything but his zoning was a huge part of him being too), Kenshi, Freddy. Some MU against Kabal were just people walking and ducking under instant air gas blasts. People still watched that for over 2 years. Everyone acts like Injustice is the only game where zoning matters, when it was a huge part of MK for a long time. It can be interesting to watch in NRS games, I would rather them worry about making the zoning look appealing for the spectators than just make it irrelevant because casuals get bored watching it.
 
Chuckyscookie

Chuckyscookie

Here's to hoping.
One thing NRS themselves brought up as a counter measure to a zoning heavy meta is the size of the stages. Compared to injustice, they are much smaller. So if you're just zoning walking backwards, you'll find yourself in a corner pretty fast, making it easier for the opponent to close the distance.

Also, I'm not worried too much based on the gameplay we have already seen. For the very first exhibition matches, spamming projectiles was an easy strategy without knowing much about the game and your character. But in every game from people who had a bit more time with the game, such as Kecthup vs Mustard or the Kombat Kast games, we didn't see too much of that.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
legion666 said:
MK9 had super strong zoning. You can see that by looking at top tiers like Kabal (can do anything but his zoning was a huge part of him being too), Kenshi, Freddy. Some MU against Kabal were just people walking and ducking under instant air gas blasts. People still watched that for over 2 years. Everyone acts like Injustice is the only game where zoning matters, when it was a huge part of MK for a long time. It can be interesting to watch in NRS games, I would rather them worry about making the zoning look appealing for the spectators than just make it irrelevant because casuals get bored watching it.
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In MK9 it was really only 3/4 characters though. And only a couple of those characters could greatly vary the zoning (Kenshi and Freddy). You could also dashblock, so there was less of a chance of getting caught on the way in, and there was much less pushback in general on hit and block. Also alnost zero hitscan and autotracking zoning tools.

With Injustice, the screen became much bigger, there were far more characters with serious zoning tools, the zoning itself often became a mixup (meter burn for overhead, for example), there was far more hitscan and auto-tracking-style zoning, etc., and now without dashblock you really had to commit to your movement options and it was easier to be hit out of them while moving in. Characters gained a bunch of tools that had significant pushback on block or tossed you back to near fullscreen on hit.

Imo Injustice and MK9 really shouldn’t be compared as far as zoning goes. Very different metas.
 
ArcticTabasco

ArcticTabasco

I wish I knew Kung Fu.
From what we've seen, I'm of the mind there's a good balance going on. Different characters control space from different ranges and with different tools. Raiden (seemingly) is strong far away, and has tools to keep that distance or reset to it after a combo. Jade (again, seemingly) is best at a lot closer (but not grab distance close), likes to keep you in check with pokes & glaives and again, resets that distance after a combo. Sonya (seemingly) is best at close range and can mix you up there, but isn't helpless (nor dominant, though) far away thanks to her projectile.

Each character has a distance that's in their favor, but is still well-rounded enough to not be helpless out of that range. This combined with the reduced speed of the game (compared to MKX) focuses the meta a lot on methodical, strategic space control. Which I LOVE.

Obviously it's way too early to judge, not having played the game for even a second, but so far this iteration of MK seems right up my alley, meta-wise. Looking hella pretty is a good bonus on top.
 
P

PLAYING TO WIN

Champion
Scans op and sees “bullet hell”. Wtf. Already scrubs? Perfect block and advance/punish. I suppose you are also going to complain about jap anti airs or not being able to jump?

You have any clue what a bullet hell UMVC3 bullet hell is? NRS has learned their lesson. And we will never see a pre patch deadshot again.

Game isn’t even out and this is starting.
 
leoj89

leoj89

Apprentice
The latest build shown on the Kombat kast put those fears to rest for me.

I do hate that base variations haven't been set in stone just yet though. It's making it hard to theory craft.
 
SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
PLAYING TO WIN said:
Scans op and sees “bullet hell”. Wtf. Already scrubs? Perfect block and advance/punish. I suppose you are also going to complain about jap anti airs or not being able to jump?

You have any clue what a bullet hell UMVC3 bullet hell is? NRS has learned their lesson. And we will never see a pre patch deadshot again.

Game isn’t even out and this is starting.
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Maybe if you read the op instead of scanning it you wouldn't jump to conclusions.
 
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