MK11 Zoning Discussion

[kevkopdx]

Call it a hunch, because there is literally no evidence to this at all, but I honestly think Sonya's rings will be severely less powerful in the final build of the game.

The recovery and startup of them just seemed too good for what they intended for the character.
As far as the specifics of how strong a certain tool is at this point, I personally wouldn't worry to much.

===

About the Flawless Block goes though, I think you're not looking at the big picture of it just yet.

Lets say you are Baraka and you are being zoned out by by some mid zoning tool or w/e. The max range of his Blade Charge is about half screen. Normally this mid zoning tool keeping Baraka out wouldn't be punishable by Blade Charge, but if you Flawless Block it, you could punish it when you previously couldn't.

That said, many character's don't have super strong zoning tools that isn' t punishable from a certain range so far from what has been shown in the demo-build. Like Raiden's Lighting Strike for example is a great mid projectile, but it could be punished by soooo many tools that the other characters have in the demo build from a certain range on block (Slide, Baraka Charge, Sand Trap). The matchups where this happens will evolve into both characters hardly throwing out anything from far unless they know it'l land.

While this may change, I think their intention is what is important. They want the strong zoners to have good safe zoning, but that's just those select few characters.

I don't think MOST matchups will be so zone heavy, especially if it's something like Baraka vs Sonya (guess, but yeah, it's a hunch).

Ok! Yes that all makes sense, thanks for explaining!

 

[CrazyFingers]

If you ran TYM pre-release of a game there would be no threads at all lol.

No opinions, no speculation, just "look how pretty this is".

Speculation is wildly different from "this is going to be TOO strong". You can even discuss if things are potentially strong it's just quite odd to discuss the meta of a game as if its concrete when the games not out yet. Yes this game looks like it might favor zoning but as Glortor said, we dont know.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Aside from that to put my two cents (sense? Cents) in I think the game is going to favor neutral. Zoning tends to be an extension of that so odds are yea its gonna favor the space control game with projectiles and such. What the OP has also addressed is theres already a ton of counter zoning options, even on someone like Geras who you'd expect to struggle against zoning just purely based on his archtype.

Overall, will projectiles be "too strong?" Seems like a premature thing to be asking with like 7 characters move sets being revealed but odds are that answer will be entirely dependent on your preference. Which you cant accurately evaluate until the game is fully out, see why conversations like this are so hard to have this early?

 

[Eddy Wang]

Can i play devils advocate? Maybe someone more knowledgeable can answer.
Hypothetically, if you are trading flawless block with projectiles, you are still at a standstill, right? With nothing being gained on either side other than a timer filling up meter.. so won’t the zoner still kind of be in a favorable position? Considering say, Sonya, can throw out double projectiles as her meter builds? And since flawless block requires very precise timing that the zoner doesn’t have to worry about.. is the only plus that you don’t get chip damage as you slowly make your way in? Why doesn’t nrs just remove chip damage altogether? Are there other fgs that utilize this mechanic?

Flawless block reduces pushback and blockstun, you won't staying on a static position as much as you do when you regular block a projectile.

There is also the stages which are a lot shorter than previous games.

 

[M.D.]

Zoning will be atroceous, no dash run roll armor to get in will mean walkback spam city.
Injustice 2 would look like a rushdown game compared to this.

Posting this so I can make an "I told you so" thread when the game hits the shelves.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

From what we have seen so far it shouldn't be a problem. Most players where just zoning because they didn't have enough hands on to learn the meta. There is no meter build, there is perfect block and several tools to deal with zoning.

There doesn't seem to be instant airs so there's that. We may only be looking at 2-4 projectiles popped off before they get in. There are very meaty long reaching mids so it seems there are options to get around projectile spam. This isn't even counting specials like Kabal air dash, Jade immune, scorpion/raiden teleport and however many more to come.
On top of it there is so much more unknown about the game, characters, moves, added mechanics, balance changes ect.

The game isn't even out yet, we shouldn't worry.

Besides I know many players who are defensive players who love to use zoning and like others above I don't believe zoning makes the game unappealing. We have had multiple games where zoning was considerably strong: MK9 Kabal/Noob and everyone still watched. I'm Glade the game is more neutral based instead of being 50/50 and Armor while negative steal a turn Free we had in MKX.

 

[Circus]

Zoning will be atroceous, no dash run roll armor to get in will mean walkback spam city.
Injustice 2 would look like a rushdown game compared to this.

Posting this so I can make an "I told you so" thread when the game hits the shelves.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the other reply I attached to the bottom of this post?

It could be that during the time of the beta that the players playing weren't comfortable with the range they could properly punish projectiles with their character specific tool.
That and things like Sonya's rings could vastly change when the game comes out.

I like when people have different opinions on this kind of stuff because it's where we properly discuss stuff.

Call it a hunch, because there is literally no evidence to this at all, but I honestly think Sonya's rings will be severely less powerful in the final build of the game.

The recovery and startup of them just seemed too good for what they intended for the character.
As far as the specifics of how strong a certain tool is at this point, I personally wouldn't worry to much.

===

About the Flawless Block goes though, I think you're not looking at the big picture of it just yet.

Lets say you are Baraka and you are being zoned out by by some mid zoning tool or w/e. The max range of his Blade Charge is about half screen. Normally this mid zoning tool keeping Baraka out wouldn't be punishable by Blade Charge, but if you Flawless Block it, you could punish it when you previously couldn't.

That said, many character's don't have super strong zoning tools that aren't punishable from a certain range so far from what has been shown in the demo-build. Raiden's Lighting Strike for example is a great mid projectile, but it could be punished by soooo many tools that the other characters have in the demo build from a certain range on block (Slide, Baraka Charge, Sand Trap). The matchups where this happens will evolve into both characters hardly throwing out anything from far unless they know it'l land.

While this may change, I think their intention is what is important. They want the strong zoners to have good safe zoning, but that's just those select few characters.

I don't think MOST matchups will be so zone heavy, especially if it's something like Baraka vs Sonya (guess, but yeah, it's a hunch).

 

[Vslayer]

We will just have to play more patiently, it's not like getting in on a zoner is impossible.

 

[Rathalos]

After NRS's history I don't think it's ever too early to voice concerns.

 

[Wigy]

No problems with skillful zoning. Pls no fate and Starfire esque pew pew 0 brain zoning

 

[villainous monk]

MK11 is looking to be the most honest competitive fighter NRS has made yet.

No more cheesy armored reversals when your negative on block.
No more safe 50/50s leading into full combos
No more crazy wakeups
No more "fuck the neutral" characters

They want the focus to be on spacing, footsies, and fundamentals.

But with the focus on the neutral now, the one fear some have is that zoning might be too strong and uninteresting. So far there have been a ton of good zoning tools shown too.

Something to note though is that so far most characters have shown to have tools in their kit that give the finger to strong zoning. While armor isn't common in this game, everyone seems to have a tool that makes people think twice about throwing a projectile (kind of like how practically everyone has one in SF5).

This means in some matchups, zoners will be forced to severely limit their projectile game so they'll have to play much more methodically. It also opens up the amount of playstyles that are successful.

This'll limit the amount of matchups that have someone walking in on bullethell scenarios which aren't broken by any means, but a bore to watch as a spectator.

Scorpion: Hell port (base moveset)

Baraka: Armored Flag Rush (variation special move)

Geras: Quicksand(projectile immune)/Sand Simulacrum (variation special moves)

Raiden: Teleport (variation special move)

Skarlet: Bloodport (variation special move)

Jade: Projectile Immunity (base moveset) // Diagonal Air Glaive and Projectile Reflect (variation special moves)

Kabal: Diagonal Air Blade (base moveset) // Air Dash (variation special move)

Subzero: Slide (base moveset) / Diagonal Air Axe (variation special move)

Sonya: Diagonal Air Energy Rings (variation special move)


So what are everyone's thoughts, predictions, or concerns on zoning in MK11 so far?

I think you answered your own question.

From what we have seen so far is there's options and answers for everything in this game. From using FB's and reverseals to better looking normals to escape zoning and get in.

There's nothing to worry about and it not in our hands yet to prove otherwise.

 

[Circus]

I think you answered your own question.

From what we have seen so far is there's options and answers for everything in this game. From using FB's and reverseals to better looking normals to escape zoning and get in.

There's nothing to worry about and it not in our hands yet to prove otherwise.

What hasn't been mentioned too much too is the fact that all these generally good ranged D4s will really dampen walk back in a way that many Injustice2 characters couldn't.

Much like Street Fighter, long ranged lows that duck you under certain projectiles are useful because even the fear of someone dashing into their range and using them will stop a high fireball attempt or walk-back in it's tracks.

 

[Espio]

What hasn't been mentioned too much too is the fact that all these generally good ranged D4s will really dampen walk back in a way that many Injustice2 characters couldn't.

Much like Street Fighter, long ranged lows that duck you under certain projectiles are useful because even the fear of someone dashing into their range and using them will stop a high fireball attempt or walk-back in it's tracks.

To piggy back off this since you have to actually commit to blocking with the block button you can't just walk back and auto block an advancing attack so you have to decide if you wanna risk eating a punish or playing it safe and blocking at the risk of chip and stagger pressure.

 

[villainous monk]

What hasn't been mentioned too much too is the fact that all these generally good ranged D4s will really dampen walk back in a way that many Injustice2 characters couldn't.

Much like Street Fighter, long ranged lows that duck you under certain projectiles are useful because even the fear of someone dashing into their range and using them will stop a high fireball attempt or walk-back in it's tracks.

Yeah but again you answered your concern.

Let's say that's true for a moment. Your zoning I'm getting in with my normals. Your still zoning I'm still getting in. You see... Nothing to worry about. If it's low zoning your doing I get a free jump in. Or I can air zone or teleport. Whatever. My walk back is unaffected you see because I'm going to be more worried if you'll be impatient and press more buttons or jump in has now I lost how I choose to get you play how I want to play.

Even if it's mids I still have options. So NRS form what we've seen. So far. Has made sure you have options to counter zoning or get out off pressure.

 

[Circus]

Yeah but again you answered your concern.

Let's say that's true for a moment. Your zoning I'm getting in with my normals. Your still zoning I'm still getting in. You see... Nothing to worry about. If it's low zoning your doing I get a free jump in. Or I can air zone or teleport. Whatever. My walk back is unaffected you see because I'm going to be more worried if you'll be impatient and press more buttons or jump in has now I lost how I choose to get you play how I want to play.

Even if it's mids I still have options. So NRS form what we've seen. So far. Has made sure you have options to counter zoning or get out off pressure.

For the record, I'm not concerned at all my dude. I'm actually the complete opposite. I highly think theyre doing it right. I don't think there is anything to worry about at all. It's why I keep on bringing up points against it.

That click bait title I chose is haunting me. Everyone is under the impression I think otherwise lol

 

[Skedar70]

Zoning has me concerned from a different perspective.

In inj 2 zoning was PREVALENT, not too strong, not op, not broken but PREVALENT. Almost every match that started had basically this flow chart. "Does my character outzone yours? Yes, walk back and zone. No. Walk in while getting zoned."

I was able to duck or avoid getting hit by the constant barrage of projectiles and walk in to get my wins, but this is probably the only thing I didn't like about the game.

From what I have seen so far MK11 is at a risk of becoming the same and I am really not sure if I want to get through all that again.

 

[Marlow]

You can get as defensive about it as you want and say I2 wasn't really that bad and only a few could zone, but there is a reason no one wants to watch that game.

I always thought the reason there were fewer viewers for Injustice 2 was because the game is still a relatively small scene compared to most other fighting games. For that matter MK is still somewhat of a smaller scene compared to SF, Tekken, and Smash. Injustice is basically a smaller subset of MK.

 

[Circus]

Zoning has me concerned from a different perspective.

In inj 2 zoning was PREVALENT, not too strong, not op, not broken but PREVALENT. Almost every match that started had basically this flow chart. "Does my character outzone yours? Yes, walk back and zone. No. Walk in while getting zoned."

I was able to duck or avoid getting hit by the constant barrage of projectiles and walk in to get my wins, but this is probably the only thing I didn't like about the game.

From what I have seen so far MK11 is at a risk of becoming the same and I am really not sure if I want to get through all that again.

The thing is, in injustice2 there was generally much less tools to deal with zoning except, well, zoning back.

So far outside of a few tools shown so far, most zoning tools are punishable from a certain distance with character specific tools on reaction or on block. I know the frame data is still subject to change, but only Skarlet atm is the only zoner who I could see safely doing things from far.

My hopes are that most projectiles that belong to non-zoner playstyles will act like Ken's fireballs from SF4 and SF5. He has th he tool available, but it's only really reliable from full screen or if he KNOWS it'll hit because from anywhere closer than full or 3/4s screen he has to fear it getting punished by something.

This would make it so instead of there being a fireball constantly on screen like injustice 2, there will be a lot of walking back in forth in max poke distance. I suspect THIS is the goal of the devs this time around.

 

[villainous monk]

For the record, I'm not concerned at all my dude. I'm actually the complete opposite. I highly think theyre doing it right. I don't think there is anything to worry about at all. It's why I keep on bringing up points against it.

That click bait title I chose is haunting me. Everyone is under the impression I think otherwise lol

Change the title then. Otherwise you'll be defending yourself on a topic that is bating folks when you. Yourself. Agree with most people in the thread.

Just saying.

 

[Marinjuana]

Unless they put a truly dumb character in there zoning I don't see it ever being as impactful in MK11 as it was in INJ2 for several reasons.

As it was pointed out by OP, a lot of MK characters have counter zoning options as part of their base kits or as part of variations. Even before the game is released, we know Scorpion will have a teleport, we know Raiden will have Superman, we know Sub Zero will have slide and so on and so forth. But even then it seems like something they are keeping in mind with MK11.

Secondly, we have the most underrated change IMO which is the meter change. INJ2, Brainiac vs Batman, Batman zones Brainiac very well but Brainiac can mix him on oki and Batman can't punish divekick as well as some other characters. In theory, you may think Brainiac can do kind of well because of his offense if he just plays patient. Well the problem is that even after a meter build nerf Batman may gain as much as 1.5x or 2x the amount of meter(idk what it would really be tbh) as Brainiac does. Meaning Batman has much greater access to system mechanics like armor, MB specials and clash. Because of this, it can be a shit matchup. Brainiac has to be the patient one and walk and duck through batarangs only to have a huge meter disadvantage.

This happens in so many matchups, Bo' Rai Cho can't consistently beat a character who will have twice as many combo breakers as he does, Swamp Thing can't overcome Deadshot zoning and a huge meter deficit. If I was a rushdown character who is full screen with a slight lifelead and the opponent had a really good high projectile, I may have to run in rather then righteously turtle with my lifelead because I can't stop them from building meter. The benefits of meter building make it optimal to zone when possible and I think the meter change is going to dramatically impact how often players zone. I think you will see more deliberate and meticulous zoning instead of the spammy kind of zoning outside of a few variations/characters.

And for third, backdashes are no longer invincible(IIRC), please correct me if I'm wrong. This is a big change for several reasons but in the context of zoning in no longer means you can just escape some pressure while getting back into neutral, when you see a jump in you can't just backdash it like you used to. This is going to make moving backwards much more risky. I would fight Flash as Raiden in INJ2 and I would backdash constantly to keep away from his nonsense but a strat like that won't be nearly as effective without invincible backdashes. Instead you'll have to stand your ground more often and you won't have as many easy escapes into neutral.

 

[Circus]

Ninja thread title change for people who read as far as the title.

Turns out its a ton of people. My bad, I guess.

 

[Sablicious]

MODERN FIGHTING GAME EUPHEMISM TRANSLATION GUIDE:

"zoning" ------------------------------------> PROJECTILE SPAMMING
"vortex" ------------------------------------> THROW LOOPS
"50-50's" -----------------------------------> LUCK
"corner trap" ------------------------------> GAME OVER
"chip out" / "C" ---------------------------> CHEESE
"balance" ----------------------------------> BOREDOM
"HP proportional damage scaling" --> FAKE 'HYPE'
"damage scaling" -----------------------> SKILL PLATEAUING / LAZY GAME DEVELOPMENT
"lenient inputs" ---------------------------> CASUALISATION
"universal input" -------------------------> EARLY ONSET DEGENERATIVE BRAIN DISEASE
"accessibility" -----------------------------> SLOW, SYSTEMATIC, GENRE SUICIDE
"casual gamers" -------------------------> A HANDFUL OF BEAN$
"Sirilin" -------------------------------------> VERMIN (*vulgar epithet)
"rage quit" ---------------------------------> COMEUPPANCE
"NICE!" ------------------------------------> MASHED LOW POKE K.O.
"EPIC!" ------------------------------------> "GREAT AGAIN"
"git gud" -----------------------------------> "I ALSO PLAY CALL OF DUTY"...

 

[THTB]

Who knows how zoning will end up. There's a number of mechanics and options to potentially offset it. I think it'll be fine, though.

What does have me concerned is the homogenization of wakeups. Because so far it's looking like wakeup attacks will all function the same, and I don't necessarily consider that a good thing.

 

[khumbolawo87]

MODERN FIGHTING GAME EUPHEMISM TRANSLATION GUIDE:

"zoning" ------------------------------------> PROJECTILE SPAMMING
"vortex" ------------------------------------> THROW LOOPS
"50-50's" -----------------------------------> LUCK
"corner trap" ------------------------------> GAME OVER
"chip out" / "C" ---------------------------> CHEESE
"balance" ----------------------------------> BOREDOM
"HP proportional damage scaling" --> FAKE 'HYPE'
"damage scaling" -----------------------> SKILL PLATEAUING / LAZY GAME DEVELOPMENT
"lenient inputs" ---------------------------> CASUALISATION
"universal input" -------------------------> EARLY ONSET DEGENERATIVE BRAIN DISEASE
"accessibility" -----------------------------> SLOW, SYSTEMATIC, GENRE SUICIDE
"casual gamers" -------------------------> A HANDFUL OF BEAN$
"Sirilin" -------------------------------------> VERMIN (*vulgar epithet)
"rage quit" ---------------------------------> COMEUPPANCE
"NICE!" ------------------------------------> MASHED LOW POKE K.O.
"EPIC!" ------------------------------------> "GREAT AGAIN"
"git gud" -----------------------------------> "I ALSO PLAY CALL OF DUTY"...

Lol this was a hilarious read

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Espio]

Who knows how zoning will end up. There's a number of mechanics and options to potentially offset it. I think it'll be fine, though.

What does have me concerned is the homogenization of wakeups. Because so far it's looking like wakeup attacks will all function the same, and I don't necessarily consider that a good thing.

Why is that a concern though? I think their frame of mind with a lot of the homogenization is it puts everyone on the same field. If I knock Baraka, Skarlet, or Raiden down, I have to guess roll, safe armored wake up or anti-air full combo wake up and maybe some more options. I think that encourages more thinking on both sides because you can get in

When I got knocked down with Blue Beetle I had a low stab (unsafe leads to combo), anti-air stab (unsafe, also combos), shied bash (Safe on block with pushblock, punishable on whiff and fully invincible), back dash, delayed wake up versus Cheetah that has command grabs for wake ups with no invincibility and her air claws that are invincible but can be stuff off neutral jumps and full combo punishable on whiff so she has much less options and a lot less reward to boot too.

I think the wake up game can be deep without having to account for potentially 70+ different wake ups with different invincibilities and favor granted to characters that probably don't need better wake ups.