MK11 Zoning Discussion

[Circus]

Why is that a concern though? I think their frame of mind with a lot of the homogenization is it puts everyone on the same field. If I knock Baraka, Skarlet, or Raiden down, I have to guess roll, safe armored wake up or anti-air full combo wake up and maybe some more options. I think that encourages more thinking on both sides because you can get in

When I got knocked down with Blue Beetle I had a low stab (unsafe leads to combo), anti-air stab (unsafe, also combos), shied bash (Safe on block with pushblock, punishable on whiff and fully invincible), back dash, delayed wake up versus Cheetah that has command grabs for wake ups with no invincibility and her air claws that are invincible but can be stuff off neutral jumps and full combo punishable on whiff so she has much less options and a lot less reward to boot too.

I think the wake up game can be deep without having to account for potentially 70+ different wake ups with different invincibilities and favor granted to characters that probably don't need better wake ups.

I love that the wakeups are more universal too, I just wish we had at least one video that shows someone countering a tech roll with a grab. At what point does that roll become ungrabbable? Is it grabbable the whole way through?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I love that the wakeups are more universal too, I just wish we had at least one video that shows someone countering a tech roll with a grab. At what point does that roll become ungrabbable? Is it grabbable the whole way through?

I wish we had tons if light shined on game mechanics most of all what specials are available in what variation. Characters look op not knowing if X move can be used with Y move.
It might help to have a few top players play with the characters longer than 48hrs but that's my opinion.

 

[M.D.]

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the other reply I attached to the bottom of this post?
...

Flawless block would indeed be a theory that can work.

But then again so was MB roll as an ideea, but with the horrendous recovery it had at release, it ended up favoring zoners more as they could instantly get away to Dr.Fate you to death more.

Of course there is always the possibility of people balancing the game perfectly, sure.

My post was somewhat of an indirect stab at the "Nothing is final, anything can change" remark, which we heard countless times and upon release, it was the same crap and nobody cared.

The current gameplay seems like zoning until someone gets in range of his advancing mid, and does it into something safe. That's it.

If you watched sonic vs honeybee, baraka literally did the double kicks the entire set because of this. Obviously the character might have other tools, that we can discover and it will be much easier. He once jumped through the tongue which showed it did not have an air hitbox.

My concern is that the longer the period to find this counter is, the more it will damage the game at release. Sure, the pros will keep playing, but not everyone is on east coast and has a 100 player pool to chose from.

 

[Circus]

Flawless block would indeed be a theory that can work.

But then again so was MB roll as an ideea, but with the horrendous recovery it had at release, it ended up favoring zoners more as they could instantly get away to Dr.Fate you to death more.

Of course there is always the possibility of people balancing the game perfectly, sure.

My post was somewhat of an indirect stab at the "Nothing is final, anything can change" remark, which we heard countless times and upon release, it was the same crap and nobody cared.

The current gameplay seems like zoning until someone gets in range of his advancing mid, and does it into something safe. That's it.

If you watched sonic vs honeybee, baraka literally did the double kicks the entire set because of this. Obviously the character might have other tools, that we can discover and it will be much easier. He once jumped through the tongue which showed it did not have an air hitbox.

My concern is that the longer the period to find this counter is, the more it will damage the game at release. Sure, the pros will keep playing, but not everyone is on east coast and has a 100 player pool to chose from.

Well put man.
This is the kind of concern that I feel is valid pre-release, especially from what we were shown in the demo-build.

The "problem" with Injustice2 was that in the neutral there was almost always a fireball on screen until you entered a certain range. The person with the better projectile would always be using it constantly. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, like you mention, it does inevitably hurt the game in the long run for a lot of fans that aren't hardcore like us.

...

Like I mentioned before though, my hopes are that most projectiles that belong to non-zoner playstyles act like Ken's fireballs from SF4 and SF5. He has the tool available, but it's only really reliable from full screen or if he KNOWS it'll hit because from anywhere closer than full or 3/4s screen he has to fear it getting punished by something on block or on reaction.

This would make it so instead of there being a fireball constantly on screen like injustice 2, there will be a lot of walking back in forth in max poke distance.

I'm cautiously VERY hopeful that they are focusing on giving many characters tools that punish projectiles on reaction or block from a certain range AND MORE IMPORTANTLY that many non-zoning characters will have projectiles that are counterable in this way in many matchups from a reasonable range.

This either means these projectiles have to have a slow startup or a slow recovery.

Such tools so far that could punish bad projectiles on reaction are Quicksand(projectile immune SandTrap from Geras) which could be done on reaction to a slow startup projectile, and of course Slide from SubZero which could slide under slow high projectiles on reaction aswell.

Then there is the tools that punish projectiles with bad recovery on block or whiff from a certain range like Blade Charge, Shadow Kick, and normal SandTrap.

This makes it so only the TRUE zoners with good frame data on their projectiles will be able to use tools from far away consistently and safely.

...

I know this is all speculation so far, but after studying this new MK11 system and really theory crafting I think this would be the "perfect balance" situation you were talking about.

It might just be my rose-tinted glasses, but I truly believe it could be achieved.

 

[Circus]

It's times like these where I wonder what @16 Bit and @Dizzy are thinking reading threads/posts like these.

What's crazy is that with the obligation to stay tight-lipped they are just onlooking from the treetops, observing but unable to interact with any detail lol.

I know many of us just need to chill tf out and wait, but my mind is going wild with exciting possibilities for MK11 post-release and on.

 

[chrisofrays]

Jump kicks seem to be a good option now that combos arent huge. This will also be another tool vs zoning.

Pretty sure i saw a video where they showed the meter recharged slower when throwing projectiles. This might not be in the final build but it might be a good indication that they dont want to make a zone heavy game. Or it was just a early build glitch

 

[M.D.]

It's times like these where I wonder what @16 Bit and @Dizzy are thinking reading threads/posts like these.

What's crazy is that with the obligation to stay tight-lipped they are just onlooking from the treetops, observing but unable to interact with any detail lol.

I know many of us just need to chill tf out and wait, but my mind is going wild with exciting possibilities for MK11 post-release and on.

Sooo..you actually think they read these?

I mean like...there were only 999999 threads and vids proving a-list was destroyed by that random nerf and nobody cared

 

[THTB]

Why is that a concern though? I think their frame of mind with a lot of the homogenization is it puts everyone on the same field. If I knock Baraka, Skarlet, or Raiden down, I have to guess roll, safe armored wake up or anti-air full combo wake up and maybe some more options. I think that encourages more thinking on both sides because you can get in

When I got knocked down with Blue Beetle I had a low stab (unsafe leads to combo), anti-air stab (unsafe, also combos), shied bash (Safe on block with pushblock, punishable on whiff and fully invincible), back dash, delayed wake up versus Cheetah that has command grabs for wake ups with no invincibility and her air claws that are invincible but can be stuff off neutral jumps and full combo punishable on whiff so she has much less options and a lot less reward to boot too.

I think the wake up game can be deep without having to account for potentially 70+ different wake ups with different invincibilities and favor granted to characters that probably don't need better wake ups.

My issue with homogenization is that not everyone is on the same field because everyone is on the same field. What I mean by that is, yeah, every character has the same option, but there will be characters that may not necessarily need to have as good a wakeup as other characters, and it also removes a layer of strengths/weaknesses with the cast. Like Black Adam was really good at controlling the neutral game, getting good damage, and had one of the best traits in Inj2, but he was weak in the wakeup department. That added an extra layer to fighting the character in that knocking him down could be huge, especially with a strong offensive character. Now, a character who may not necessarily need to have such a guessing game on wakeup has one, with how it will be in 11.

 

[KidVanDal]

My issue with homogenization is that not everyone is on the same field because everyone is on the same field. What I mean by that is, yeah, every character has the same option, but there will be characters that may not necessarily need to have as good a wakeup as other characters, and it also removes a layer of strengths/weaknesses with the cast. Like Black Adam was really good at controlling the neutral game, getting good damage, and had one of the best traits in Inj2, but he was weak in the wakeup department. That added an extra layer to fighting the character in that knocking him down could be huge, especially with a strong offensive character. Now, a character who may not necessarily need to have such a guessing game on wakeup has one, with how it will be in 11.

From what I gathered the frames of wakeups differ from character to character. It may not be by much but atleast it's something.

 

[Circus]

From what I gathered the frames of wakeups differ from character to character. It may not be by much but atleast it's something.

Yea, while wakeups have been drastically toned down, they will differ just like everyone's Krushing Blow will be different range and frame-wise.

A character who you have to fight to close the gap on shouldn't have a crazy good wakeup.

 

[Tony at Home]

Almost all "heavy zoning" matches I've seen have been matches with both players trying to zone each other out (Skarlet vs Baraka matches). I'm just not seeing any high level players struggling to get in if that's what they want to do.

 

[THTB]

From what I gathered the frames of wakeups differ from character to character. It may not be by much but atleast it's something.

If this is the case, I am on board 100% with them. I like the idea of the change, but I hope I'm totally wrong on how things will be.