MK11 Zoning Discussion

[Baconlord]

I wouldn't worry. Injustice 2 zoning wasn't even that good (there were like 2 characters that could do it well). The most annoying thing about zoning was the meter build but that's been changed so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Circus]

Raiden (seemingly) is strong far away, and has tools to keep that distance or reset to it after a combo.

This combined with the reduced speed of the game (compared to MKX) focuses the meta a lot on methodical, strategic space control. Which I LOVE.
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People thought that Raiden would be a heavy-zoner but looking back at the demo-build's frame data, lightning strike (the move Rewind used to zone effectively) was -19 on block. This means that if he was facing any character with a move like Geras' Sand Trap, Baraka's Blade Rush, or Jade's Shadow Kick he actually would have gotten punished from a pretty reasonable distance.

Compare that to Skarlet, who's similar Blood Tentacle was -6 (unpunishable), in the demo-build. You could see that Skarlet's base moveset is more aimed to keep away.

Of course, it was just the demo-build, but I personally think it gives a good idea of what the developers intend with the future of the character gameplan-wise even if the numbers will change a bit.

And I agree, I'm super excited about the slower more methodical space control game. It's honestly the most excited gameplay-wise I've EVER been for a fighting game.

Scans op and sees “bullet hell”. Wtf. Already scrubs? Perfect block and advance/punish. I suppose you are also going to complain about jap anti airs or not being able to jump?

Um?

Yea... I'm clearly on the side that there is nothing to worry about zoning-wise in MK11 so far.

I'm glad you're passionate enough to be so defensive immediately after not reading at all I guess?
(yea lets go with that...)

 

[Espio]

I'm not worried or concerned about it because there's a whole lot of teleports and other counter zoning tools like Jade's flash as well as flawless block and what have you. A lot of projectiles seem to be highs and there is no need to rush to get in on opponents because everyone's meters function the same way so you don't have to worry about Jade building a bunch more meter and just pushblocking immediately or breaking immediately when you get past her neutral/zoning. Everyone's wake up game is equalized as well so you won't have to deal with some characters with good defense having a really over the top strong wake up too.

Zoners appears like they're going to have to play quite well to make things happen and simplicity is most effective at early stages and zoning mostly messes with impatient players so we may see a lot of salt early on but once people adjust we'll be in a good position.

I think the fears are unfounded and I also think we're going to be playing a lot of neutral and walk forward/backward.

 

[KidVanDal]

I'm not worried or concerned about it because there's a whole lot of teleports and other counter zoning tools like Jade's flash as well as flawless block and what have you. A lot of projectiles seem to be highs and there is no need to rush to get in on opponents because everyone's meters function the same way so you don't have to worry about Jade building a bunch more meter and just pushblocking immediately or breaking immediately when you get past her neutral/zoning. Everyone's wake up game is equalized as well so you won't have to deal with some characters with good defense having a really over the top strong wake up too.

Zoners appears like they're going to have to play quite well to make things happen and simplicity is most effective at early stages and zoning mostly messes with impatient players so we may see a lot of salt early on but once people adjust we'll be in a good position.

I think the fears are unfounded and I also think we're going to be playing a lot of neutral and walk forward/backward.

Can we just sticky this and point to it whenever zoning gets brought up?

 

[MKF30]

I think the zoning will be more viable and relevant than MK X, which IMO is a good thing for the more defensive player who wants to keep distance and not be overwhelmed by braindead run 50/50's.

I saw MK 9 as a good balance for the most part, I2 I felt was better than MK 9's and even that game wasn't as "bad" as some people made it out to be. Sure MK 9 had good zoning but it also had good rushdown, smooth movement with the dash cancels.

I think MK 11 will be a good mix of footsies, back and forth action with yes some zoning but I'll gladly take all of that over MK X's gameplay. We'll see what happens but I look forward to it.

 

[Lex Luthor II]

Because of the CHANGE in meter I think zoning will be okay; no longer will you be overly-rewarded for zoning with gain in meter giving you a significant advantage.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

No meter gain, no breakers (2 defense bars to "drop out" of a combo, and still potentially get punished or pressured), no OP wakeups, smaller stages, etc.

Zoning won't be that bad.

 

[Rathalos]

Injustice 2 traumatized people lol.

Zoning is fun in certain games, but it's rarely fun to play or watch in NRS games because of the way the projectiles are designed and the fact they don't clash.
A niche of people seem to like it, but they're weird and we don't talk about them.

NRS zoning is always going to be loony toons, knock each other down, get back up and knock each other down and repeat until someone gets frustrated. It's just goofy and turns people away.

With the direction they are going with MK11 I am honestly pretty surprised they didn't add in projectile clashes.

Not to say zoning is going to be a problem or it's too strong in MK11, I'ts way to early, but I do feel like NRS should play it safe and have projectile zoning be underpowered at the start and bring it up slowly as the game progresses.

You can get as defensive about it as you want and say I2 wasn't really that bad and only a few could zone, but there is a reason no one wants to watch that game.

 

[Circus]

Injustice 2 traumatized people lol.

Zoning is fun in certain games, but it's rarely fun to play or watch in NRS games because of the way the projectiles are designed and the fact they don't clash.

This is exactly my standpoint as far as viewership goes!

1. In SF4 seeing Guile vs Sagat fights was always so interesting because they had to mixup the speeds of the projectiles thrown CONSTANTLY in the projectile clash-war.

2. Kenshi zones in a way that is really interesting because he has to mixup so many different options too.

3. Sinestro and Raven even have a variety of interesting tools used to control the space in front of them.

All these ways of zoning strong end up being so interesting that many people actually are motivated to pick up these zoners because they look like so much fun.


But then you have zoning strategies like this infamous Whiteboi(Scarecrow) vs ForeverKing(Batman) match at CEO:

The zoning is so monotonous and and the stage is SO big that it just becomes a drag.
It's not like it's even broken; it's really NOT. It's just that it's so uninteresting, especially if it occurs almost every match the game offers at a higher level.

People aren't looking at this going, "WOW that Batman play is SICK! I want to pick up Batman!".

This combined with the common Superman zoning, that isn't too great but tedious to watch, just became the beginning of the Injustice2 zoning meme that other communities ragged on NRS for.

For the record, the ridiculous pressure Whiteboi puts on as Scarecrow is dumb in it's own way too, but that's a different topic altogether because MK11 has already shown to have less wacky offense.

 

[juicepouch]

Based on previous EXP with NRS titles I fully suspect day 1 some character with a gun is going to be completely broken according to the masses crying on the internet. Will they actually be too good though or will we all be bad? That's murky

 

[legion666]

In MK9 it was really only 3/4 characters though. And only a couple of those characters could greatly vary the zoning (Kenshi and Freddy). You could also dashblock, so there was less of a chance of getting caught on the way in, and there was much less pushback in general on hit and block. Also alnost zero hitscan and autotracking zoning tools.

With Injustice, the screen became much bigger, there were far more characters with serious zoning tools, the zoning itself often became a mixup (meter burn for overhead, for example), there was far more hitscan and auto-tracking-style zoning, etc., and now without dashblock you really had to commit to your movement options and it was easier to be hit out of them while moving in. Characters gained a bunch of tools that had significant pushback on block or tossed you back to near fullscreen on hit.

Imo Injustice and MK9 really shouldn’t be compared as far as zoning goes. Very different metas.

Doesn’t matter if it is only 3/4 if 3 of those are top 5. That means it is what you are seeing at highest level beside Cyrax and Sonya. And their zoning works against most of the cast. In I2 it is really only like 4 characters as well who can zone against the top tier.
By hitscan you mean hitstun? There is no strong hitstun in MK 9 but there are zoning tools that are very plus on block (like Kabal’s iagb, or Kenshi’s ex spirit charge, or Freddy’s green drop from the sky). By the way, have you seen the pushback on spirit charge and ex spirit charge? Or Kabal’s ground saw?
And dash blocking ( or dash ducking) doesn’t work if you do Kabal’s iagb as low and as fast as possible you will be getting caught. You can only walk/duck your way in with some characters.
I2 also has a mb roll.
Kenshi’s zoning has a mix up, duck teleflurry or standblock the overhead slash. And there is a low in Ex Teleflurry. Kabal has a lot of mix to his zoning, like duck the iagb, standblock the dash cancel into overhead hookswords, duckblock the saw etc.
Kenshi’s teleflurry and Freddy’s ex ground claws also autotrack.
I am not the one trying to compare MK and Injustice’s zoning, obviously it works differently in different games. I am just showing that zoning was super effective at the highest level in mk9, as well. It was a big part of the meta.
The people who complain about zoning in MK11 this early are the ones calling it Injustice 3.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Flawless block will cut zoning short

 

[HeroesNZ]

Rewind used the variation with the most easily-abusable zoning game and Fox still beat him with a rushdown character. And that was month -4

Nothing to worry about

 

[Slymind]

Injustice 2 traumatized people lol.

Zoning is fun in certain games, but it's rarely fun to play or watch in NRS games because of the way the projectiles are designed and the fact they don't clash.
A niche of people seem to like it, but they're weird and we don't talk about them.

NRS zoning is always going to be loony toons, knock each other down, get back up and knock each other down and repeat until someone gets frustrated. It's just goofy and turns people away.

With the direction they are going with MK11 I am honestly pretty surprised they didn't add in projectile clashes.

Not to say zoning is going to be a problem or it's too strong in MK11, I'ts way to early, but I do feel like NRS should play it safe and have projectile zoning be underpowered at the start and bring it up slowly as the game progresses.

You can get as defensive about it as you want and say I2 wasn't really that bad and only a few could zone, but there is a reason no one wants to watch that game.

I thought the exact same things.

If they want to be conservative about things in the game so it does not become a cheap fest. start with projectiles, and fine tune later on if needed.

 

[Ram]

#flawlessblock

 

[mwharp]

Zoning is annoying to deal with and annoying to watch, though it is a necessary part of a fighting game. I just hope that we don’t get into the territory where if you spam a projectile full screen then it’s extremely difficult for the opponent to get in, like in IJ2 with Starfire

 

[MrWarMachine]

With the direction they are going with MK11 I am honestly pretty surprised they didn't add in projectile clashes.

They must want to avoid the SF comparisons as much as they can. But I do think you're right, it seems like a no brainer.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

By hitscan you mean hitstun?

Hitscan projectiles like Joker and Harley. Not really a physical entity on stage that you can see.

 

[Circus]

Why do people question things we’ve already seen answers to? Like they’ve shown us so many damn moves that allow you to deal with zoning already that the fact that you would make a thread worrying is baffling to me.

What's baffling is that you wrote this out when you clearly didn't read the thread OP....

I literally said exactly what you just said in this post.

LITERALLY. Almost word for word.

I'm on the side that there is nothing to worry about. Read next time man...

 

[Evil Canadian]

I agree with the op zoning will destroy mk11 and ruin nrs

 

[legion666]

Hitscan projectiles like Joker and Harley. Not really a physical entity on stage that you can see.

Ok, thanks for the clarification)
Well, in mk9 there were Stryker and Ermac, the gunshots and the push weren’t great on recovery but they had that property to them.

 

[kevkopdx]

Flawless block will cut zoning short

Can i play devils advocate? Maybe someone more knowledgeable can answer.
Hypothetically, if you are trading flawless block with projectiles, you are still at a standstill, right? With nothing being gained on either side other than a timer filling up meter.. so won’t the zoner still kind of be in a favorable position? Considering say, Sonya, can throw out double projectiles as her meter builds? And since flawless block requires very precise timing that the zoner doesn’t have to worry about.. is the only plus that you don’t get chip damage as you slowly make your way in? Why doesn’t nrs just remove chip damage altogether? Are there other fgs that utilize this mechanic?

 

[Pterodactyl]

What's baffling is that you wrote this out when you clearly didn't read the thread OP....

I literally said exactly what you just said in this post.

LITERALLY. Almost word for word.

I'm on the side that there is nothing to worry about. Read next time man...

What can I say, ya got me.

I just looked at the clickbait title and assumed.

 

[Ilthuain]

Can i play devils advocate? Maybe someone more knowledgeable can answer.
Hypothetically, if you are trading flawless block with projectiles, you are still at a standstill, right? With nothing being gained on either side other than a timer filling up meter.. so won’t the zoner still kind of be in a favorable position? Considering say, Sonya, can throw out double projectiles as her meter builds? And since flawless block requires very precise timing that the zoner doesn’t have to worry about.. is the only plus that you don’t get chip damage as you slowly make your way in? Why doesn’t nrs just remove chip damage altogether? Are there other fgs that utilize this mechanic?

The blocking character recovers faster if they flawless block. Kinda like parrying projectiles in SF3.

 

[Circus]

Can i play devils advocate? Maybe someone more knowledgeable can answer.
Hypothetically, if you are trading flawless block with projectiles, you are still at a standstill, right? With nothing being gained on either side other than a timer filling up meter.. so won’t the zoner still kind of be in a favorable position? Considering say, Sonya, can throw out double projectiles as her meter builds? And since flawless block requires very precise timing that the zoner doesn’t have to worry about.. is the only plus that you don’t get chip damage as you slowly make your way in? Why doesn’t nrs just remove chip damage altogether? Are there other fgs that utilize this mechanic?

Call it a hunch, because there is literally no evidence to this at all, but I honestly think Sonya's rings will be severely less powerful in the final build of the game.

The recovery and startup of them just seemed too good for what they intended for the character.
As far as the specifics of how strong a certain tool is at this point, I personally wouldn't worry to much.

===

About the Flawless Block goes though, I think you're not looking at the big picture of it just yet.

Lets say you are Baraka and you are being zoned out by by some mid zoning tool or w/e. The max range of his Blade Charge is about half screen. Normally this mid zoning tool keeping Baraka out wouldn't be punishable by Blade Charge, but if you Flawless Block it, you could punish it when you previously couldn't.

That said, many character's don't have super strong zoning tools that aren't punishable from a certain range so far from what has been shown in the demo-build. Raiden's Lighting Strike for example is a great mid projectile, but it could be punished by soooo many tools that the other characters have in the demo build from a certain range on block (Slide, Baraka Charge, Sand Trap). The matchups where this happens will evolve into both characters hardly throwing out anything from far unless they know it'l land.

While this may change, I think their intention is what is important. They want the strong zoners to have good safe zoning, but that's just those select few characters.

I don't think MOST matchups will be so zone heavy, especially if it's something like Baraka vs Sonya (guess, but yeah, it's a hunch).