MK11 SHANG TSUNG Match Up Thread

[kcd117]

Slide/Shake/Roundhouse is the better combination.

Shake is busted. The move is god tier.

Slide gives him a low option to mix with after B1 and B3. It also KBs at max range and gives him access to big dmg combos if you can set it up.

Roundhouse would serve as his main launcher and doesn’t conflit with his regular db1 (which is godlike imo) giving him solid dmg.

Shang has some really busted combinations like Shake + Ground Skulls or Slide + Exploding Corpse + Shake but I think he’ll never get those moves togheter in a variation. Imo any variation that gets shake will end up being his best.

 

[Invincible Salads]

But lift gives him corner combos tho. Also how does slide corpse shake work as a option?

 

[kcd117]

But lift gives him corner combos tho. Also how does slide corpse shake work as a option?

Lift can be used in the corner but roundhouse + slide also gives you corner combos for good dmg.

The latter works really really well imo. I like his regular db1 a lot, so the fact that you get to keep that is huge for me. Slide gives you a true 50/50 between B1D2 and B1xxSlide and low profiles projectiles in the mid-range game. Corpse becomes a launcher and the dmg is very very high on most conversions, while also giving you options to convert from his zoning game. Shake is just insane... imo moves like this or erron’s scud shot should have absolutely no place in a game like this bc they are simply waaaay to strong. Being able to punish every projectile on reaction into decent oki is obnoxious and I have no idea how NRS is gonna balance that move in the long run.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

still not worth using imo, hopefully his 3rd variation is an all ninja one, i'd prefer Shake, Lift and Roundhouse tho, don't really give a shit about slide, but knowing NRS of course they'd give em slide over roundhouse :V

I Prefer the 3rd tourney variation has:
Ground Skulls
Shake

 

[Invincible Salads]

Nah I wouldn’t say shake or scud are exactly busted

 

[legion666]

Lift can be used in the corner but roundhouse + slide also gives you corner combos for good dmg.

The latter works really really well imo. I like his regular db1 a lot, so the fact that you get to keep that is huge for me. Slide gives you a true 50/50 between B1D2 and B1xxSlide and low profiles projectiles in the mid-range game. Corpse becomes a launcher and the dmg is very very high on most conversions, while also giving you options to convert from his zoning game. Shake is just insane... imo moves like this or erron’s scud shot should have absolutely no place in a game like this bc they are simply waaaay to strong. Being able to punish every projectile on reaction into decent oki is obnoxious and I have no idea how NRS is gonna balance that move in the long run.

Shake does 28% as an amplified KB now (not 37% like it was in Kombat Kast). But what they never mentioned is that regular Shake does KB too. You can simply Shake 2 projectiles in a row without spending any meter and get a 26% KB.
Yeah, about the rain kick + slide for combos, you get 400+ for 2 bars anywhere on the screen, and bring them back into the corner after the Slide KB. You get 45% for d2 KB, 4xxSlide Amplified KB, and 47% for throw KB, 4xxSlide Amplified KB.
I think they will definitely Do Shake+Lift+Slide, since lift replaces standard db1 and slide replaces Sorcerer's Rush. I mean they made a second variation where skulls and corpses are replaced by other moves to make it unique and different from Warlock. And there is also a preset option in the customization called Essence Of Many which has lift+shake+slide. And I am ok with that. All of these 3 give him a practical KB. Even Ermacs lift if canceled off f24 punishes those trying to Flawless block F24()2. If you are pressing block right before the f24()2 , you block just a little too late and get launched by the lift amplified into a KB.

 

[legion666]

I had two days of Sonya MU experience (both variations). Shang definitely loses to Ring Master, and probably still slightly loses to No Holds Bared.
Just like I said before the zoning is pretty much even. But Shang has to think more, Like where to place corpses and when to use a straight skull to interrupt Sonya’s zoning patterns. While Sonya can pretty much just chuck her broke projectiles if she has a life lead with occasional Amplified rings and a drone drop if Shang isn’t fullscreen. She only has to be careful throwing them at Far Ground Eruption’s max range.

As such this MU becomes very life lead dependent. And this is why Sonya wins: one opening for her equals HUGE damage almost every time. And Shang won’t be able to evenly zone anymore after just one instance of her offense.
She can also easily make up a life deficit by getting in and opening you up just once.
Soul Stealing her and using her broke stuff against her is too risky. Like I have mentioned before if she catches you while you are Sonya, a combo into f4 1+3 is a guaranteed reset, because you are forced into a morphback right after the restand. If the Sonya player knows this he can time the attack after that so that you can’t block it. She can just delete you whole lifebar for this.

 

[SaSSolino]

Nah I wouldn’t say shake or scud are exactly busted

Shake is incredibly strong and arguably busted. It's borderline useless in some match-ups, but it defines others.

Scud Shot, on the other hand, is obviously busted. You can't even make an argument against it. The move itself is straight up bullshit due to the fact that it can be amplified to act as a normal projectile, meaning Erron will ALWAYS have control in neutral.

As if that wasn't enough the move can even make strings that have no business being safe, such as b222, staggerable.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Shake is incredibly strong and arguably busted. It's borderline useless in some match-ups, but it defines others.

Scud Shot, on the other hand, is obviously busted. You can't even make an argument against it. The move itself is straight up bullshit due to the fact that it can be amplified to act as a normal projectile, meaning Erron will ALWAYS have control in neutral.

As if that wasn't enough the move can even make strings that have no business being safe, such as b222, staggerable.

sorry but i wont agree on shake being busted, scud shot just seems busted because erron himself is too strong as he is, maybe once he has some of his other things toned town including making his Big Boot enhancement unsafe then maybe it won't be too bad.

 

[Marinjuana]

Scorpion can teleport in between the first two hits of Crashing Flames(Shang's normal DB1) on reaction 100% of the time with ease and if he doesn't do that he can teleport before the final amplify hit. That's brutal for Soultaker. He also can make B11~DB1 whiff at close range if he blocks it while crouching.

Cassie also makes that string whiff but more consistently. Cassie doesn't have good flawless block attacks to counter DB1's second hit as they will whiff in almost all situations but if she does the flawless block then she can do a reversal gunshot which will be a straight damage trade DB1's third/amplified hit.

Thunder Wave Raiden can flawless block and teleport punish Shang at longer ranges if Shang does the amplify. I didn't lab this with Raijen yet.

At longer range from neutral, DB1's amplified hit can be jumped out of, particularly back jumps. If the opponent flawless blocks the second hit of DB1, this may open up forward jumps, depending on the range and the character.

Keep in mind that at a high level, players should be flawless blocking Crashing Flames' second hit virtually 100% of the time. In reality, that's not the case but people will catch up eventually. There's a slightly different timing to it at different ranges but there's no question of whether or not someone can react, just whether they can time the block and that they know their options.

Edit: Ninja added 4 paragraphs

 

[Invincible Salads]

Scorpion can teleport in between the first two hits of Crashing Flames(Shang's normal DB1) on reaction 100% of the time with ease and if he doesn't do that he can teleport before the final amplify hit. That's brutal for Soultaker. He also can make B11~DB1 whiff at close range if he blocks it while crouching.

thats some fast startup, scorp really does need his teleport nerfed >.>

 

[Marinjuana]

thats some fast startup, scorp really does need his teleport nerfed >.>

Hey I really wasn't on that train to hard but if it makes Crashing Flames usable on block in that matchup then I'm all for it

 

[Invincible Salads]

Hey I really wasn't on that train to hard but if it makes Crashing Flames usable on block in that matchup then I'm all for it

i mean it feels faster than its ever been, and also the recovery on the teleport cancel is way better than it was in mkx :V so yea it could stand to be toned down some.

 

[kcd117]

After playing over 1500 games with Shang I finally feel that I have enough exp against 90% of the cast to feel confident in this matchup chart.

I still barely got Kotal and Kollector experience since no one plays them, they are the only characters that my experience comes 100% from ranked and not from longer sets, so I put them as "really good" bc they seemed pretty helpless for the most part, but I can see that not being the case if anyone has a different experience.

Matchups are in order from worst to best in their respective tiers, and I didn't number them as I don't really like to label 3-7s and stuff, just put them as really bad for characters like Geras that are able to punish the living shit out of you for every breath you try to take in neutral on reaction and deletes you from close range to really good for characters like Jade that face fundamental struggles when facing Shang.

@LawAbidingCitizen @Marinjuana @SaSSolino @legion666 any opinions are welcome

 

[Invincible Salads]

id unno, i feel like once u get the life lead on subzero and liu its not that bad.

 

[SaSSolino]

@kcd117 why do you consider Frost even? I always felt in an advantage against her.

Kabal, on the other hand, isn't that good. Knockdowns on his projectile gets Shang off his game. I'd say even.

Kitana doesn't seem bad to me.

Sonya, Erron and Scorpion I'd say really bad. At least to me it seems like Shang needs to consistently outplay them.

In the opposite way, Kollector is not THAT good. He has tools and that teleport can hurt. I'd say either just good or even.

Finally Liu Kang is just bad for me.

Besides that I agree.

thats some fast startup, scorp really does need his teleport nerfed >.>

He can even punish AMP projectiles by teleporting immediately after low profiling the first projectile (or 2nd in Frost's case). Yeah, that move is way too good.

 

[Invincible Salads]

in matchups like liu kang, i use ground skulls less for zoning and more so as anti neutral and punishing tool, once you catch em moving when they shouldnt be, you can gain some control.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Kitana bad for Shang? Umm.. I would love to hear the reasoning behind that.

The only good thing she has in that mu is flawles blocking the second hit of groundskulls and punishing with square boost which btw is range dependent and the window is extremely tight.

Actualy most people have that as 6-4 Shang.

He can anti air her extremely well with s2, he controls the neutral 100% with ground skulls and can zone her easily. He has better pokes, better auto shimmies and better throw game. Kitana's best bet is a yolo square boost which is super high risk/low reward and fans that can't even contest corpse drop.

 

[kcd117]

Kitana bad for Shang? Umm.. I would love to hear the reasoning behind that.

The only good thing she has in that mu is flawles blocking the second hit of groundskulls and punishing with square boost which btw is range dependent and the window is extremely tight.

Actualy most people have that as 6-4 Shang.

He can anti air her extremely well with s2, he controls the neutral 100% with ground skulls and can zone her easily. He has better pokes and faster mids, better auto shimmies and better throw game. Kitana's best bet is a yolo square boost which is super high risk/low reward and fans that can't even contest corpse drop.

I feel like both variations are very annoying in their own way, but it is really close to a 5-5 imo. In her first variation she can punish ground skulls with square wave, and in the second one she can outzone you pretty bad with the mileena stance while also counter zoning you.

I don't think anyone in the game can anti-air Kitana when she jumps in the sweetspot of her J2, I feel like even tho Shang has good anti-airs he loses most of the time when trying to beat a well-spaced Jump in.

She can deal with his zoning very well, and her straight projectile knocks down when amplified, and that is a huge problem for Shang across his matchups. When he has the lifelead, he can zone her just fine. Once he loses it, all trades against Kit's fan are unfavorable as they leave him in very disadvantageous situations unless he trades with an amplified corpse, which is pretty rare as it comes out very slowly.

Kit's normals can also compete with Shang's in neutral, and they can be very tricky to deal with in some situations. His pokes are definitely better than hers but the majority of the match won't be played at the range where it matters.

The reason why I think Kit has a slight advantage here is bc I think this is a heavily lifelead based matchup. Whoever has the lead gets to stay back and wait for the other to come. Kitana has the tools to chase Shang down just fine, she has ways around everything he can throw at her and she can get her offense going when she needs to. Shang, on the other hand, is terrible at chasing people down. If he doesn't have the lead he struggles getting around her projectiles, her normals, he can't jump in on her, he can't risk yolo ground skulls, he really has to work to get to a competent Kitana.

 

[SaSSolino]

Shang has good anti-airs

Oh cool! Like what?

His pokes are definitely better than hers

Are Kitana's pokes really that bad? Because I consider Shang's quite weak personally.

I mean his d3 is fine, even though very limited in range. His d1 and d4 on the other hand are ew.

 

[Invincible Salads]

i don't think shang has that big of an issue getting in on her, shang has a lot of range on his normals and lets not forget his f3/f4 mixup as well. and if kitana wants to make you come to her, let her, duck and or flawless block her fans until she corners herself.

 

[kcd117]

@kcd117 why do you consider Frost even? I always felt in an advantage against her.

Kabal, on the other hand, isn't that good. Knockdowns on his projectile gets Shang off his game. I'd say even.

Kitana doesn't seem bad to me.

Sonya, Erron and Scorpion I'd say really bad. At least to me it seems like Shang needs to consistently outplay them.

In the opposite way, Kollector is not THAT good. He has tools and that teleport can hurt. I'd say either just good or even.

Finally Liu Kang is just bad for me.

Besides that I agree.



He can even punish AMP projectiles by teleporting immediately after low profiling the first projectile (or 2nd in Frost's case). Yeah, that move is way too good.

Frost: I felt like she can definitely play the neutral and not worry too much about your projectiles, as her bombs have good recovery to trade. Her projectile shield works well in this matchup. Her fatal blow is also a huge treat bc Shang's projectile recovery is terrible. She has good checks for his ground skulls, can play a solid mid-range game... I just feel like none of the characters are ever in a bad spot in this matchup.

Kabal: Kabal struggles a lot with ground skulls. Like, really, that move disrupts his mid-range game in a fundamental level. His projectile knocks down, which can be annoying but they also do less dmg than yours, so trades are in your favor and he still has to get in eventually, and that is when he dies. He has absolutely no answers to ground skulls. The matchup is a little less lopsided when he uses his low buzzsaw variation tho, but still, he can't challenge ground skulls and has to get through them to win.

Kitana I explained in the previous post, even tho this could turn out o be an even matchup in the future. Rn, I just think Kit has a more straight forward gameplan against him than he gets to have against her.

Sonya, Scorp and Erron are all terrible too no doubt, I just don't want to put them with the "really bad" bc all of the characters in that class have reliable ways to punish the majority or all of Shang's space control tools and really keep him from playing his game. They all control neutral, but at least, Shang can use his best tools to check them without risking his life.

Kollector I really have not played that much, I can see what you are saying.

Liu is disgusting imo lol he punishes your main zoning tools and outzones you really bad when he plays smart. Once you have to chase him, you are already playing on your weaknesses. When you finally get in on him, his upclose game is just retarded. The way I see, there is not really a range in this matchup where Liu is uncomfortable. He can't be zoned out effectively and he is a mix machine when he gets in.

 

[kcd117]

Oh cool! Like what?



Are Kitana's pokes really that bad? Because I consider Shang's quite weak personally.

I mean his d3 is fine, even though very limited in range. His d1 and d4 on the other hand are ew.

His D2 is great for close-range Jump ins, S1, S3, and S2 for far jump-ins, ground skulls are unbeatable on a read, but they are risky at that range agains Kit. In the Kitana matchup, none of them are consistent tho, imo.

Her pokes are not bad, but the frame data on his are just bonkers for now lol.

 

[Invincible Salads]

i'd say Cetrion Scorp and Geras are the worst, everyone else falls below that.

 

[kcd117]

i don't think shang has that big of an issue getting in on her, shang has a lot of range on his normals and lets not forget his f3/f4 mixup as well. and if kitana wants to make you come to her, let her, duck and or flawless block her fans until she corners herself.

It doesn't work that way bc Kitana's projectiles have good recovery. By the time you are F4ing her you take a fan to the face and get knocked back a lot. Smart players will also duck it/ whiff punish it consistently.

i'd say Cetrion Scorp and Geras are the worst, everyone else falls below that.

Cetrion and Geras are pointless matchups. No real way to get anything going and no way to stop them from playing their game. Sub in the slide variation does the same thing they do too. Thinking about it now, I'd definitely put the 3 in a "Pointless" category.

Liu is terrible but you can win if you play a perfect game, same for Jacqui, but the fact that her pressure is almost an infinite on Shang is so dumb... Her F3 can make both D1 and D3 whiff, so you have to counterpoke with D4, but her D1 beats your D4 and if you block it you are pushed to the perfect range where your D1 and D3 will whiff on her F3 lol this matchup is basically over once she gets in, but at least you have a shot at playing your game before that.