MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[M.D.]

A bill.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Ok so i found out about this dude named fgc juicebox and he does in depth analysis on characters and Johnny was surprisingly his go to in mk games. He went through all his moves and couldn't come up with a gameplan. Like he's plus 3 after amp forceball and plus 6 and 124 and 34u3 but u get nothing guaranteed. My question is what do u guys think nrs intended this character to be? Day 1 Johnny main btw

I'd say he's kind of a jack of all trades master of none. I believe on the Kombat Kast that featured Johnny, they said he was meant to be an easy character for players to pick up and use. I think he's meant to be good...if you're in the realm casual players. At a competitive level he can do all the same things, but you're going to have to make a ton of reads, and learn your punishes, and learn to whiff punish. Cage requires you to understand your spacing, timing and know what you're doing at all times.

 

[NewMK11Player]

Any of yall updated the Johnny diagram/living guide? @Wrath1104 @FoughtDragon01 Im a fiend for new tech

 

[FoughtDragon01]

Any of yall updated the Johnny diagram/living guide? @Wrath1104 @FoughtDragon01 Im a fiend for new tech

Guide's still in progress, but I'll admit I low-key dropped the ball last week, and didn't really start it properly until Friday.

That said, how would you guys rank his walk speed? Below average? Above? Somewhere near the middle?

 

[DrFolmer]

I think it's safe to say that a lot of us know most of the matchups by now. For the past week I've been utterly dominating, even against the more powerful characters. Just recently in the past 4 days, I've hit a wall. Almost every player I go up against, they turtle against Cage. They'll just sit there, crouch block literally everything, and anticipate grabs. I simply can't rely on grabs anymore to open guys up. My pokes don't have that much of an effect anymore, because they're always blocking low.
If I play against somebody who doesn't know Cage's matchup, but he's a good player, my ranked sets go something like this:

1. I'll completely destroy the other player in the first match, to the point where I make him look like a beginner.
2. Sometimes he switches characters. In the next match, I notice he's relying on spacing and projectiles. He now knows he can poke out of most strings, and he knows it's his turn to poke after F4. Still, I win the match by keeping my head and playing patiently, despite getting hit by a cheap fatal blow or several uppercuts.
3. My opponent does one of two things: he either zones me out during the entire match, or he turtles. While turtling, all he does is wait for me to grab, breaks it, then responds with a combo. The only thing Johnny can respond with fast enough after a break is F3, but my opponent is always ready and pokes out of it.
4. Brass knuckles are little to no help whatsoever. Brass knuckles seem to scare my opponent into zoning for the remainder of the match, jumping around like a madman, or non-stop attacking. They're always spacing, waiting for me to miss my wake-ups. The cycle continues.
5. I get completely shut down. My only hope is to land 1 grab out of 20 attempts as he's always waiting for it. He reads Cage Rage like a book at this point. He comes back from 2-0 and wins 3 straight, leaving me pissed off and demoralized.

I hate to say this, but the old "Cage needs a damn overhead" thoughts are running through my head again. I'm back to going on losing streaks, and switching to my 2 other learned characters out of frustration. Many of you, especially Wrath, convinced me that F3 being a high wouldn't be a problem anymore so long as they add a few more frames to F4, and fix the hitboxes. I'm still on board, but Cage just can't answer to a lot of things. Forgive me for saying this, but would an overhead still be possible? Maybe change F43-make 3 an overhead? If you think I'm bullshitting you, please play against a good Jacqui or Cetrion.
Again, I'm still going to use Cage no matter what, but holy shit I'm pissed off. It bothers me that I couldn't do anything.

It would just be nice with a fast(er) mid - this alone would make the battle against the top tiers much less of a drag. Like, good players dont even respect the restand. I hate how Erron Black can get away with doing multiple low pokes on block and he somehow beats my f4 - this is not necessarily related to restand. On top of that it's such a hard read going for f4 into np unless you wanna settle for f44 as retaliation. I risk a full combo to the face if they are not throwing out a poke, granted we even hit them in time. I think people are starting to notice this. F3 is the only decent move recovery wise to stagger but when people catch on to its high property its efficiency drops a bit IMO - still a good string as it is our main hit confirm.

People think LONG and HARD when they go up against Jacqui or Jax when they poke because if they disrespect the opponents advantage they're gonna eat that 9 framer. It's especially obnoxious with the top tiers because they all have those MASSIVE d4/d3's. The ones with good range have super quick recovery while the ones that basically snipe you catches your attempts at f4 alot of the time.. aaaaaaaaaand they have pushback just for the lulz. When Sub starts back dashing while throwing out d4's repeatedly to duck forceballs as well as denying entry for me. Some of these pokes even catch jump-ins like Jeez. And of course it's not as simple as just mashing, if that's the case there's a way around it, but for the top of the cast it's really minimal effort required to steer clear of our f4 I feel.

It's just weird how some get true 50/50's AAAAAAAND top tier neutral with fast hit-confirmable mids while some have no 50/50's and slower non-confirmable mids. I think it's just the state of the top tiers right now that makes things demoralizing. I only play against Scorpions, Subs, Sonyas, Kangs (He's not the god tier but he's a solid noob stomper esp with fucking wi-fi which all kang players play with) and Errons. Occasionally Geras and Noob. And when you beat the Scorpion, he pulls out his Thin Ice Sub Zero, and when you beat that, he pulls out his Erron Black. I literally sit there "Okay he goes to character select.. He's definitely gonna play Sub-Zero now aaaaaaand there it is"

 

[SwiftEagle]

I'm at work right now so I can't check it for myself right now, but a thought occurred to me while thinking of the differences in gameplay between Cassie and Johnny. While I do feel that Johnny's Nutpunch KB should be the same as Cassie (3 AMPed Nutpunches), does his AMPed NUtpunch Krushing Blow off of a combo that punishes/counters, or does it have to be the raw Nutpunch AMPed that activates the Krushing Blow on counter/punish?

If it can do that in a combo, that's something we can work with due to Johnny's whiff punish tools that can set up into AMPed Nutpunch, although he still needs more than that, since he'd only have 2 usuable KBs (that one and the D2).

I just realized your name is the van dam movie

 

[DrFolmer]

It's 3 flippy kicks done in the last round, then end in a flippy kick.

Still need to unlock it though and I have no ideea where it is.

About liu kang, he will always get in. This game is not zoning based and Cage is not a zoner. If the player is decent he will always get in. And then it's 9 frame mid stagger city.

Matchup is definitively not in our favor.

For me the brutal was in tier 3 or 4 of Johnny's towers... sooo its a bit of a grind tbh

 

[Wrath0594]

Ok, here’s some random lab stuff. Idk if yall have played with amped forceball strings on block a lot, but a frame perfect f4 afterwards seems to trade with 9f moves. If our f4 was 12f, this would probably be a jail. Midscreen we have to worry about people backwalking to create a whiff, but they lose this option in the corner.

The best options after ending a string in amped forceball seem to be either b34 since it beats almost any other normal and the + frames alleviate the startup. Or a second amped forceball. If your input is tight, it catches any kind of jump which is the main counter to b34.

If your opponent is in the corner, f4 into amped forceballs, followed by f4 or b2 also beats all jumps. Obviously unsafe at -14, but something as far as pressure goes if you know that’s they like to do and you don’t have to worry about neutral crouch. Stopping them from jumping should open them up to b34 pressure with a lot of choices, even staggers. B3 is -6 on block, so b3 throw is definitely possible as a mixup. The one downside is that it’s -8 on hit. B34 amped forceballs into f4 is really good too. Midscreen it beats jumps since it keeps them closer than f344.

Also d1 is better than s1 or b2 for anti air imo. I think it’s the best choice since d2 into d1 nutpunch is inconsistent and height dependent. Oh, and if anyone still hasn’t started using f3 throw yet, you need to. It’s hella good. F3 is only -4 so it’s a really legit setup similar to Scorpion’s f3 stagger. Creates one more mindgame they have to deal with. Get nutpunched, flip coin, get d4’d, look for Johnny’s dash throw, block f3, now look for a stagger throw.

 

[Error404]

5/5 tournament variation moves are a joke. And don't even get me started on Amp. Mime Time.

 

[SwiftEagle]

I'm dropping Cage until the patches come in. I'm not having fun going into matches knowing I'm at a disadvantage. It's not fair. I'm straining my thumbs every match trying not to make a mistake while everyone else gets to have these bs mixups and coin flips. I don't feel relaxed when I use Cage. I can always see when the other players figured it all out. You can grind out 30 matches with Cage and never improve. Yet when I switch characters I win. I lose sometimes but I feel myself getting better after a win.
For those about to pick up Cage, just wait. It's not worth it and you'll definitely have a tough time now that you'll be matching with day 1 players. It's way more effort than its worth. Wait until after he's fixed. Handicapping yourself is stupid.
The monkey is officially out of the barrel with Cage:
-Crouch block and turtle
-anticipate grab
-win
I often ask myself if the tbaggers think they're good after they beat Cage.

 

[lionheart21]

I'm dropping Cage until the patches come in. I'm not having fun going into matches knowing I'm at a disadvantage. It's not fair. I'm straining my thumbs every match trying not to make a mistake while everyone else gets to have these bs mixups and coin flips. I don't feel relaxed when I use Cage. I can always see when the other players figured it all out. You can grind out 30 matches with Cage and never improve. Yet when I switch characters I win. I lose sometimes but I feel myself getting better after a win.
For those about to pick up Cage, just wait. It's not worth it and you'll definitely have a tough time now that you'll be matching with day 1 players. It's way more effort than its worth. Wait until after he's fixed. Handicapping yourself is stupid.
The monkey is officially out of the barrel with Cage:
-Crouch block and turtle
-anticipate grab
-win
I often ask myself if the tbaggers think they're good after they beat Cage.

I'm in the same boat right now. I'm trying to get him to work, but its just not clicking. I've moved on to Cassie, who I've been having much more success and fun with. It's so much more fun using a character that can use 2 Krushing Blows in a round instead of possibly getting lucky and hitting one in the entire match.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

I could never drop my boi, but I solve these issues by not really taking the game serious, Cage only appears to be garbage standing next to the 6 characters everyone is using right now because they are leagues above everyone else.

If it were up to me I would either make f4 11-12 frames or b3 13-14 frames so you could get decent whiff punishes and the risk really being only a mistimed d4, instead of trying with f3 and getting kB uppercut full combo punished.

I’d also make it so d1 could reliably jail into standing 2/1.

Fix hitbox issues.

Done.

 

[M.D.]

I started playing Cage and I was like, I don't care if I lose, i'm going to fish for the brutalities.

Then I realized that doing a brutality actually implies winning, which is borderline fantasy at this point on ranked because of:

1. Sonya BBBBBBBLADDEE
2. CASSSSIECCCCCCCAJJJJJJJ
3. GGGGGGERRRRRRRRRASS BLADDDEEE
4. ERRRRRRRONNN ALTF44444
5. SABZZZZIRRRRRROOO
6. WHATEVER 8-9 frame mid wonder character
7. >100 ping which makes our already mediocre framedata complete trash as you will get poked out with d3 and d4 out of literally EVERYTHING you press.

So now my goal is to fish for the krushing blows, and get as many as I can before I lose the match.

Which wasn't a variable. Losing, that is. That is guaranteed.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Johnny will be my main in the long run but I told my self after mkx no more characters where I have to work 10x harder then my opponent thats why I had so much fun in injustice 2.
Now here I am doing it to myself again because I love the character. Starting playing a jax also and it's nice to play the full game with legit mix ups, KBs and fast MIDS.
When I first saw the full roster I had a bunch of characters I wanted to try then realized how boring most were. Liu for example was gonna be my co main with Johnny but hes basically one string and the move I was looking forward to most isnt even tournament legal.

 

[Chad Ironchest]

Ok, here’s some random lab stuff. Idk if yall have played with amped forceball strings on block a lot, but a frame perfect f4 afterwards seems to trade with 9f moves. If our f4 was 12f, this would probably be a jail. Midscreen we have to worry about people backwalking to create a whiff, but they lose this option in the corner.

The best options after ending a string in amped forceball seem to be either b34 since it beats almost any other normal and the + frames alleviate the startup. Or a second amped forceball. If your input is tight, it catches any kind of jump which is the main counter to b34.

If your opponent is in the corner, f4 into amped forceballs, followed by f4 or b2 also beats all jumps. Obviously unsafe at -14, but something as far as pressure goes if you know that’s they like to do and you don’t have to worry about neutral crouch. Stopping them from jumping should open them up to b34 pressure with a lot of choices, even staggers. B3 is -6 on block, so b3 throw is definitely possible as a mixup. The one downside is that it’s -8 on hit. B34 amped forceballs into f4 is really good too. Midscreen it beats jumps since it keeps them closer than f344.

Also d1 is better than s1 or b2 for anti air imo. I think it’s the best choice since d2 into d1 nutpunch is inconsistent and height dependent. Oh, and if anyone still hasn’t started using f3 throw yet, you need to. It’s hella good. F3 is only -4 so it’s a really legit setup similar to Scorpion’s f3 stagger. Creates one more mindgame they have to deal with. Get nutpunched, flip coin, get d4’d, look for Johnny’s dash throw, block f3, now look for a stagger throw.

Great finds man. Johnny is gonna be scary once they fix the whiffs

 

[DrFolmer]

I've noticed 121 consistently whiffing on the last hit a lot of the time.. However I experienced the 2 missing as well and I got poked out of it. THIS is annoying. I have success in doing 1 into the 121 string. People block the jab then remember they just gotta crouch block, cause we aint gonna go for the 14 frame mid, but they forget the 1 has +3 advantage - so I end up getting a full corner combo or a 1 (whiffs)21 into flipkick midscreen. People are REALLY itching against Johnny can constantly disrespect him at every turn, so a lot of guys get caught by this little gimmick IMO - if the whiffing was not an issue this could be more than a gimmick

 

[Wrath0594]

No snark intended, but we really need to get a vent thread going.

I’d use it. Posted a rant the other day, but deleted it.

 

[MrMaxAwesome]

Here's some anti Liu Kang F43U3 tech I found out a few days ago I was just too lazy to upload.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130462713359097856

Stand blocking the first hit and crouching the 2nd makes the 3rd hit whiff, tested with Cassie/Jacqui and it doesn't work with them.
Johnny and Liu Kang can make it whiff.

This beats the full string, stagger, low fireball and parry.

My thoughts on it? While a strong tool to know, it makes you stand up which opens you to D4 pressure from Kang so it's a risky defensive setup,
Also
I don't like that it exists
These whiff issues on both sides are driving me insane. I most definitely would like for them to be fixed both ways.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Here's some anti Liu Kang F43U3 tech I found out a few days ago I was just too lazy to upload.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130462713359097856

Stand blocking the first hit and crouching the 2nd makes the 3rd hit whiff, tested with Cassie/Jacqui and it doesn't work with them.
Johnny and Liu Kang can make it whiff.

This beats the full string, stagger, low fireball and parry.

My thoughts on it? While a strong tool to know, it makes you stand up which opens you to D4 pressure from Kang so it's a risky defensive setup,
Also
I don't like that it exists
These whiff issues on both sides are driving me insane. I most definitely would like for them to be fixed both ways.

Thanks for that. I discovered I was able to neutral duck the 3rd hit of that string and punish, but I couldn't do it consistently, and I had no idea why. I was probably crouch blocking the 1st hit, the times I couldn't get it to work.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I went through the entire fucking cast looking for more strings that whiffed after I found the Geras F212 whiff and found nothing. Now we're finding out that stance adjustment blocking causes whiffs...wow. I guess I'll be going through the whole cast again.

As dumb as this is, I won't be complaining. Johnny could use an edge over characters like this. Geras and now Kang...I love it.

 

[Wrath0594]

I went through the entire fucking cast looking for more strings that whiffed after I found the Geras F212 whiff and found nothing. Now we're finding out that stance adjustment blocking causes whiffs...wow. I guess I'll be going through the whole cast again.

As dumb as this is, I won't be complaining. Johnny could use an edge over characters like this. Geras and now Kang...I love it.

Probably not worth it unless you’re attending real tournaments with Johnny. We’re playing this character with the assumption hitbox issues will be fixed universally, afterall. Cool for the short term, but it’s a gimmick that could be patched. Worth it to learn if you’d stick with the character even if they don’t fix hitboxes, but I won’t.

 

[NewMK11Player]

Ok, here’s some random lab stuff. Idk if yall have played with amped forceball strings on block a lot, but a frame perfect f4 afterwards seems to trade with 9f moves. If our f4 was 12f, this would probably be a jail. Midscreen we have to worry about people backwalking to create a whiff, but they lose this option in the corner.

The best options after ending a string in amped forceball seem to be either b34 since it beats almost any other normal and the + frames alleviate the startup. Or a second amped forceball. If your input is tight, it catches any kind of jump which is the main counter to b34.

If your opponent is in the corner, f4 into amped forceballs, followed by f4 or b2 also beats all jumps. Obviously unsafe at -14, but something as far as pressure goes if you know that’s they like to do and you don’t have to worry about neutral crouch. Stopping them from jumping should open them up to b34 pressure with a lot of choices, even staggers. B3 is -6 on block, so b3 throw is definitely possible as a mixup. The one downside is that it’s -8 on hit. B34 amped forceballs into f4 is really good too. Midscreen it beats jumps since it keeps them closer than f344.

Also d1 is better than s1 or b2 for anti air imo. I think it’s the best choice since d2 into d1 nutpunch is inconsistent and height dependent. Oh, and if anyone still hasn’t started using f3 throw yet, you need to. It’s hella good. F3 is only -4 so it’s a really legit setup similar to Scorpion’s f3 stagger. Creates one more mindgame they have to deal with. Get nutpunched, flip coin, get d4’d, look for Johnny’s dash throw, block f3, now look for a stagger throw.

Yup, I do D4 and if it hits I dash forward do F3 and go for a throw. I legit dont think ive been teched or stopped yet. Its so unexpected. U mix that up with f344 amp fireballs and its a nice little trap.

Also nice tech with the b3 into throw, I never thought of that. Ima Add that to the one that i do now which is b32 amp fireball if they block.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

Ok, here’s some random lab stuff. Idk if yall have played with amped forceball strings on block a lot, but a frame perfect f4 afterwards seems to trade with 9f moves. If our f4 was 12f, this would probably be a jail. Midscreen we have to worry about people backwalking to create a whiff, but they lose this option in the corner.

The best options after ending a string in amped forceball seem to be either b34 since it beats almost any other normal and the + frames alleviate the startup. Or a second amped forceball. If your input is tight, it catches any kind of jump which is the main counter to b34.

If your opponent is in the corner, f4 into amped forceballs, followed by f4 or b2 also beats all jumps. Obviously unsafe at -14, but something as far as pressure goes if you know that’s they like to do and you don’t have to worry about neutral crouch. Stopping them from jumping should open them up to b34 pressure with a lot of choices, even staggers. B3 is -6 on block, so b3 throw is definitely possible as a mixup. The one downside is that it’s -8 on hit. B34 amped forceballs into f4 is really good too. Midscreen it beats jumps since it keeps them closer than f344.

Also d1 is better than s1 or b2 for anti air imo. I think it’s the best choice since d2 into d1 nutpunch is inconsistent and height dependent. Oh, and if anyone still hasn’t started using f3 throw yet, you need to. It’s hella good. F3 is only -4 so it’s a really legit setup similar to Scorpion’s f3 stagger. Creates one more mindgame they have to deal with. Get nutpunched, flip coin, get d4’d, look for Johnny’s dash throw, block f3, now look for a stagger throw.

Mind if I add these to the guide? With proper credit given, of course.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Yup, I do D4 and if it hits I dash forward do F3 and go for a throw. I legit dont think ive been teched or stopped yet. Its so unexpected. U mix that up with f344 amp fireballs and its a nice little trap.

Also nice tech with the b3 into throw, I never thought of that. Ima Add that to the one that i do now which is b32 amp fireball if they block.

God's I fucking hate it when I know I'm going to do D4, then F3 into throw and the damn F3 actually hits. Coulda had that combo. Oh well.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I played a small online tournament last week and took 3rd.

My Johnny footage is here if anyone cares: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/426162761

Wish I had known the Jade MU better....