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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
That damn F4 and F44 needs some work...I wouldn't have an issue with it either being neutral or slightly plus on block since it doesn't combo. As you stated, it seems that F4's main purpose is to be cancelled into either an EX-fireball or Caged Rage, both of which can be ducked.

The way I see it, if Scorpion's F3 can be a 13-frame staggerable mid that kombos, why can't JC's F4 - and his F3 for that matter - be equally scary?
Yeah, and why can’t we have a teleport and a spear?
It’s because we aren’t Scorpion. -6 is staggerable. All the scariest staggers in the game are -7 including Liu Kang’s and Jade’s. And technically our f4 does combo with nutpunch amp. It just isn’t hitconfirmable. F44 is fine. It’s just there to keep people from ducking. F3 is god tier.

Not to be rude, but we have got to move on from these points. We’ve been on them for 15+ pages.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I wouldn't call f4 into a d1 or d4 staggerable. We don't have a proper stagger game like baraka, jacqui, scorpion, jax, etc etc

The staggers mentioned are scary because of the 9 or 11 frame mids that follow into another stagger. We don't have that.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
I wouldn't call f4 into a d1 or d4 staggerable. We don't have a proper stagger game like baraka, jacqui, scorpion, jax, etc etc

The staggers mentioned are scary because of the 9 frame mids that follow into another stagger. We don't have that.
Mostly cuz NRS fucked high hitboxes. I can’t wait to use f2... One day. I almost never even use 121 anymore cuz I’m afraid the 1 will get randomly ducked. They fixed it in X, they’ll fix it here.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Ah yes, haven't seen this mentioned, sorry if it was.

f2 is actually the go to punish online against crap unsafe but with pushback.

It works wonders against kitana ass, liukang kick, jade ex whatever etc etc.

Offline you could just f3 but over 100 ping f21 is much better as it's only 11 frame startup advancing, iirc.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
That damn F4 and F44 needs some work...I wouldn't have an issue with it either being neutral or slightly plus on block since it doesn't combo. As you stated, it seems that F4's main purpose is to be cancelled into either an EX-fireball or Caged Rage, both of which can be ducked.

The way I see it, if Scorpion's F3 can be a 13-frame staggerable mid that kombos, why can't JC's F4 - and his F3 for that matter - be equally scary?

Isn't the follow up for Scorpion's F3, F34? Isn't that his spin kick move that KBs? It's not hit comfirmable into combo is that's the case. Damn good stagger though.

Also, F4 is extremely useful when you have Fatal Blow. The cancel advantage on block is great, and on hit gives you time to dash up into combo. It makes F4 extremely dangerous to your opponent.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Yeah, and why can’t we have a teleport and a spear?
It’s because we aren’t Scorpion. -6 is staggerable. All the scariest staggers in the game are -7 including Liu Kang’s and Jade’s. And technically our f4 does combo with nutpunch amp. It just isn’t hitconfirmable. F44 is fine. It’s just there to keep people from ducking. F3 is god tier.

Not to be rude, but we have got to move on from these points. We’ve been on them for 15+ pages.
I'm not calling for Johnny to have a spear or to become Scorpion; I'm merely stating that if a character with a tracking mid combo-starter, amazing damage, god-like pokes and great space-controlling tools in F32, F34 and Death Spin can have a mid that's faster than our best high attack with virtually the same utility, it only makes sense that Johnny's only mid-mid string serve us better than merely leaving us at -5/-6 or blindly cancelling into moves that leave us vulnerable.

I have no intention of trying to downplay Johnny Cage; he's easily among the best of the mid-tier characters and is a few small tweaks away from being very good. However, I feel it's a shame that a whiff-punisher like Cage is outdone by Scorpion in almost every category, including whiff-punishing.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Isn't the follow up for Scorpion's F3, F34? Isn't that his spin kick move that KBs? It's not hit comfirmable into combo is that's the case. Damn good stagger though.

Also, F4 is extremely useful when you have Fatal Blow. The cancel advantage on block is great, and on hit gives you time to dash up into combo. It makes F4 extremely dangerous to your opponent.
Yes it is. And if the Scorpion has the extra strings, he also has access to F32 which is mid-oh-low with the range of the entire electro-magnetic spectrum. And it combos for mad damage.

Didn't know about the F4 into FB tech though. I will definitely be testing that.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Learn all the fatal blow dash cancel combos. Adds around 8% damage to each BnB. HIGHLY useful.
I most certainly will! Any tips on how to effectively make sure you get your cancel timing down? For some reason, when I was testing the FB cancels in practice some time last week, I was inconsistent at best at getting the strings out after the FB cancel. Perhaps it's simply a muscle-memory thing, I'm not sure.
 

FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
In what match ups would you guys say his parry is especially useful in? Not necessarily as a main damage dealer, but something that keeps the opponent from tossing out random buttons in the neutral.

I'm hardly high level, but when I play against characters with strong neutral, if I just use parry out of the blue, they typically press a button into it out of instinct. Then once they respect the option, they typically try to dash in for a low, or try for a jump in, both of which are vulnerable to b2. Or they may begin playing more patiently and defensively, which makes them vulnerable to dash in throws.

Does anyone else find his parry particularly useful?
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
In what match ups would you guys say his parry is especially useful in? Not necessarily as a main damage dealer, but something that keeps the opponent from tossing out random buttons in the neutral.

I'm hardly high level, but when I play against characters with strong neutral, if I just use parry out of the blue, they typically press a button into it out of instinct. Then once they respect the option, they typically try to dash in for a low, or try for a jump in, both of which are vulnerable to b2. Or they may begin playing more patiently and defensively, which makes them vulnerable to dash in throws.

Does anyone else find his parry particularly useful?
I've seen people do things like d1 into parry. I want to practice d4 into parry to steal turns, because having my d4 blocked is where I lose turn most often. So far I've only used it to stuff wakeups since that's how I use it with Liu Kang. Vs Geras this is huge since his ridiculous fucking wakeup u2 beats neutral jump kick. Could have utility off strings that keep you close? Maybe f21, wait, parry. Don't cancel. Or f4 amped forceballs, parry? Need to also test if we have enough time to activate it after blocking an early jump kick.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
I most certainly will! Any tips on how to effectively make sure you get your cancel timing down? For some reason, when I was testing the FB cancels in practice some time last week, I was inconsistent at best at getting the strings out after the FB cancel. Perhaps it's simply a muscle-memory thing, I'm not sure.
First rule of the cancel is tap L2+R2 to activate, and let go of L2 and keep holding R2 until you've finished tapping FF. I've had the most success with this method.

I'll break it down by string. FBC = Fatal Blow Cancel

12: After 12FBC you can immediately tap FF and go into 34. There's zero breaks or pauses. Just one stream of taps: 12~FBC, 34...

F344: This one kinda sucks because it's a dial in combo. I do F344 and immediately activate FB. You can dial the whole thing in really fast, and then you just wait for the Fatal Blow animation to start. This one is reaction and timing. Pretty easy to do once you get it down.

B34: Like 12FBC, this one you can just immdiartely hit L2+R2 and then go right into FF. The issue with this one is that after the cancel, it's fucking hard to link the follow up 34 as they are slightly out of range. So you have to do B34~FBC, F344...I still biff that F344. Takes practice to do it clean.

F4: This one is the weird one. If you try to hit FF too fast after FB, the cancel wont come out. You have to wait a beat. On hit, it won't matter because you're so god damn plus. Just take your time with this one.


Hope this was a little helpful.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
I've seen people do things like d1 into parry. I want to practice d4 into parry to steal turns, because having my d4 blocked is where I lose turn most often. So far I've only used it to stuff wakeups since that's how I use it with Liu Kang. Vs Geras this is huge since his ridiculous fucking wakeup u2 beats neutral jump kick. Could have utility off strings that keep you close? Maybe f21, wait, parry. Don't cancel. Or f4 amped forceballs, parry? Need to also test if we have enough time to activate it after blocking an early jump kick.

This is going to sound stupid, but do you ever do D4~nut punch? The counter poking is so strong in this game...When I do this I catch quite a few people and go into combo.
 

FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
I've seen people do things like d1 into parry. I want to practice d4 into parry to steal turns, because having my d4 blocked is where I lose turn most often. So far I've only used it to stuff wakeups since that's how I use it with Liu Kang. Vs Geras this is huge since his ridiculous fucking wakeup u2 beats neutral jump kick. Could have utility off strings that keep you close? Maybe f21, wait, parry. Don't cancel. Or f4 amped forceballs, parry? Need to also test if we have enough time to activate it after blocking an early jump kick.
Good concepts worth trying out. I've also found some success using parry in spots where I typically use Caged Rage to punish people mashing d1 in the gap. I don't know if reactions get better at higher ranks where that no longer matters, but where I'm at, it definitely makes pokers think twice.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Premium Supporter
I've seen people do things like d1 into parry. I want to practice d4 into parry to steal turns, because having my d4 blocked is where I lose turn most often. So far I've only used it to stuff wakeups since that's how I use it with Liu Kang. Vs Geras this is huge since his ridiculous fucking wakeup u2 beats neutral jump kick. Could have utility off strings that keep you close? Maybe f21, wait, parry. Don't cancel. Or f4 amped forceballs, parry? Need to also test if we have enough time to activate it after blocking an early jump kick.
That is a good way to mix things up. Blocked D4 followed up by Mime Time. Try the D4 again, if its blocked, go for a backdash and Forceball or B3.
 
Ive been using Johnny for a while to myself, and been having fun. His tools are there.

I'd argue the diagram @Wrath0594 is even helpful for even beginners because it reminds you WHAT tools you have, instead of constantly reading people bitching how the character sucks they can atleast use the tech that people have come up with and in what succession. To me, the latter is a lot more helpful than former.
 

FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
I might get started on a living guide once I get home from work if somebody else doesn't beat me to the punch. The fact that newcomers would have to sift through pages of complaints and buff requests before finding actual discussion of his options isn't a good look, even if some of the complaints are valid. There's just...a lot of it.
 

mrapchem

Noob
First rule of the cancel is tap L2+R2 to activate, and let go of L2 and keep holding R2 until you've finished tapping FF. I've had the most success with this method.

I'll break it down by string. FBC = Fatal Blow Cancel

12: After 12FBC you can immediately tap FF and go into 34. There's zero breaks or pauses. Just one stream of taps: 12~FBC, 34...

F344: This one kinda sucks because it's a dial in combo. I do F344 and immediately activate FB. You can dial the whole thing in really fast, and then you just wait for the Fatal Blow animation to start. This one is reaction and timing. Pretty easy to do once you get it down.

B34: Like 12FBC, this one you can just immdiartely hit L2+R2 and then go right into FF. The issue with this one is that after the cancel, it's fucking hard to link the follow up 34 as they are slightly out of range. So you have to do B34~FBC, F344...I still biff that F344. Takes practice to do it clean.

F4: This one is the weird one. If you try to hit FF too fast after FB, the cancel wont come out. You have to wait a beat. On hit, it won't matter because you're so god damn plus. Just take your time with this one.


Hope this was a little helpful.
This is quite helpful indeed. This particular bit of info might need to be its own thread, if it isn't one already. Thank you so much!
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
I might get started on a living guide once I get home from work if somebody else doesn't beat me to the punch. The fact that newcomers would have to sift through pages of complaints and buff requests before finding actual discussion of his options isn't a good look, even if some of the complaints are valid. There's just...a lot of it.
Starting to see the merits in this idea. If you do, the most important tech to include imo is:
  1. How to deal with neutral crouch
  2. Options from f344
  3. Options from nutpunch ender
  4. Options from d4 including jails
  5. Ways to land jump in 2, and its benefits (full combo on hit, 50/50 between jails or throw on blocks, including jail into f344 looping back into those options).
Shit like fatal blow cancelling is big and should definitely be included, just less priority imo. More icing in the cake type deal.

I used one of these types of guides to pick up Goro on MKX 2 weeks before MK11’s launch, so it could definitely be useful. Key is to keep it extensive but at the same time concise- avoiding superfluous stuff or walls of text. Also, color coating.

Pay this dude to do it: https://testyourmight.com/threads/no-longer-a-stripped-commoner-espios-tigrar-fury-guide-version-5-0.55306/
 
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Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
Moderator
Premium Supporter
I've been trying to condition my opponent to let go of block after a NP. After I notice they start to not block, I space my nutpunch to hit about sweep distance away. When I'm feeling like the opponent is going to commit to a neuch duck/d1, I'll B2 them from that sweep distance spot. It seems effective but it's super risky. Will work on it some more.
 

FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
Starting to see the merits in this idea. If you do, the most important tech to include imo is:
  1. How to deal with neutral crouch
  2. Options from f344
  3. Options from nutpunch ender
  4. Options from d4 including jails
  5. Ways to land jump in 2, and its benefits (full combo on hit, 50/50 between jails or throw on blocks, including jail into f344 looping back into those options).
Shit like fatal blow cancelling is big and should definitely be included, just less priority imo. More icing in the cake type deal.

I used one of these types of guides to pick up Goro on MKX 2 weeks before MK11’s launch, so it could definitely be useful. Key is to keep it extensive but at the same time concise- avoiding superfluous stuff or walls of text. Also, color coating.

Pay this dude to do it: https://testyourmight.com/threads/no-longer-a-stripped-commoner-espios-tigrar-fury-guide-version-5-0.55306/
I'll definitely do my best to be as complete and as accurate as I can manage the first time around, but there's definitely going to be other tech and strategies that others use that I may not know about, but I guess the more nuanced stuff can be saved for later.

And thanks for the link!
 
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Looking for aome Jade tips that I am missing, such as what punishes her keep away moves, what i was not doing effectively to counter her etc.. had a hell of a comeback but feel im missing something.