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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

So I'm almost at 1,000 matches with Cage, and I'll admit I was wrong about a few things:
  1. His pokes are definitely some of the best in the game. I've been using them more and more, and they're even good at trading with some poke spammers, because D4 automatically jails into F3 if your opponent blocks. If D4 lands, you get a combo out of it. D3 is good in the corner, and even better against players that start using projectiles when they start fearing your pressure, because it doesn't push your opponent back. 244 works better after D3. Cage's D1 is ok, though it lacks range. You're never going to beat Geras at his D1 game anyway. You should utilize the other two pokes more.
  2. His force balls are more than fine. You can amplify them after F4 to keep your opponent blocking and guessing. They almost always whiff if your opponent is ducking, especially females, but this can easily be fixed when NRS deals with the hitbox issues. Still, you shouldn't trade with anyone for prolonged periods of time. Sub-Zero, Erron Black, definitely Sonya, and a few others WILL make you pay for it. Use them intermittently.
  3. I think Cage Rage is fine the way it is in terms of speed. Sure, it's easily poked out of, much like Liu Kang's final, delayed kick that causes a crushing blow. Not sure what the string is called. But if you're pressuring right, they usually don't attempt a poke as they're anticipating a grab or something else. I really don't understand how the charges work still. Sometimes it's fully charged after 2 hits, sometimes 4, regardless if it's blocked or not. It's weird and should be looked at. It's hilariously when you're using it throughout the match, then you hit the other guy when it's fully charged. They start shitting bricks and burn their meter out of fear and desperation. That's when you start going all out as your opponent is trying to jump away. Just run them down with F3 until they're in corner. They're pretty much demoralised at that point. I got hate mail from a Scorpion player telling me, "Quit playing like a bitch", because he couldn't handle Cage Rage.
A while ago, I claimed that Cage was the worst character in the game, but I think that title goes to Kotal Khan or Shao Khan. Cage is definitely solid, but not top tier. If you're patient, you can beat most anybody. Somebody here said he was playing Cage like he would in MKX, thus causing frustration. This was my problem too. He's meant to use spacing and start his pressure at mid range, before getting aggressive. I learned this first hand from getting my ass beat in a mirror match by another Cage.
Obviously his crushing blows need to be fixed, and they should just scrap his entire second variation.
Cage doesn't even get to utilize a core mechanic.
I'm still a firm believer that F3 need a to be mid attack. Everybody is fishing for uppercuts. If somebody good starts poking, have fun grabbing the rest of the match. If Cage had an overhead starter from the beginning in place of B34, this wouldn't be an issue.
Of all the characters in the game, I still can't beat Sub Zero if the player is good. Those brain dead 50/50s...some of the worst I've ever seen. It's like you can't even block the overheads in time after ducking, because they're so fast. Those stupid ice balls that destroy your projectiles, the air-axe spammers. The damned slide into a crushing. If anybody has tips against Sub Zero, I'm all ears. For some reason I'm actually much better against Scorpion and Erron Black. Everybody sucks against Geras though.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Premium Supporter
"Somebody here said he was playing Cage like he would in MKX, thus causing frustration."

Yep, that was me. Or at least I'm one of the people that's saying that.

I also have to laugh at that Scorpion player calling a Cage player a bitch. Cage is one of the most honest characters in the game; if a Cage player beats you as Scorpion, it's because you were outmatched.
 
So this isn't really a cage discussion but I've noticed that I'll run into players that will just jump whenever they're minus and it's your turn. I would always hold block or try to crush a high when I'm minus but I just started jumping to whiff punish people that try taking they're turn. It's really stupid. The only way to get punished is if they make the hard read that you are jumping. What is the counterplay to jumping out of minus frames?
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Cage isn’t so bad
We got him bois. We got him.

But nah, realtalk, super psyched that you stuck it out and found your footing with him. And I actually think Frost is a solid contender for worst character.

I still disagree on the f3 thing, just cuz it’d make our f4 pointless. I think speeding up f4 a few frames is the healthier buff because it adds more depth than constant f3’s. Also I realized today that our d4 being so insanely + on hit also lets us mindgame dash throws after they resepct the jail and block. Also, whoever mentioned f3 into throw was right, I thought it sounded gimmicky, but it’s decent.

Sub Zero- thin ice shouldn’t give you trouble. One important thing to remember, is that it is crucial to work in forceballs in this matchup. You need to make him think he can slide, and nuke his fucking ass to mars when he does. F3 punishes slide, or 34, whatever you wna use, just blow em up, end in nutpunch, and take him to flavor, er, mixup town. Forceballs are one of the few projectiles fast enough that you can disrupt his iceball rythm and get away with it. Use them carefully, only enough to make him slide, then make him regret not picking dead winter variation.

Remember that both low and OH are negative on block, as well as any stagger so it’s important to look for when to take your turn. Iceball is full combo punishable with 244. If you get the coin flip right, it’s important you take your rewards.

Past that it’s just a matchup that’s going to test your movement and neutral game really hard, as well as how good you are at waking up (fuck SZ’s throws). Outspacing him while being aware of when he could slide is difficult, but possible. Dead Winter is frustrating for his ability to take the skill out of the matchup and make it a coin flip, but remember that still gives you a 50% chance if you’re punishing when you guess right.

Fuck Geras. 212 is the most cancerous fucking pile of shit. And fuck Erron. You played one who uses the scudshot cancel? It makes his strings 0 on block, or close to it. Nothing hits him before he can block. And his normals, god, fuck that character. At least slide seems reactable, so one less mixup. Sonya, SZ, Scorpion- don’t care. Fighting Geras or Erron are the only times I don’t even want to play MK11.
 
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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
So this isn't really a cage discussion but I've noticed that I'll run into players that will just jump whenever they're minus and it's your turn. I would always hold block or try to crush a high when I'm minus but I just started jumping to whiff punish people that try taking they're turn. It's really stupid. The only way to get punished is if they make the hard read that you are jumping. What is the counterplay to jumping out of minus frames?
If they're negative enough, you should be clipping them with your down 1 on the way up, then juggling them for a big combo if you can react in time to the d1 hitting.
 
So after a nutpunch they have to either guess a throw or a d1. D1 beats any button and if we throw and they hold block we win. That's great to know unless I'm missing something
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
So after a nutpunch they have to either guess a throw or a d1. D1 beats any button and if we throw and they hold block we win. That's great to know unless I'm missing something
D4 unless they jump. Still beats everything, opens up way more mindgames. They eat the d4 and then have to contend with f3 into throw, f3 caged rage, f344 into neutral, f344 amped forceballs into pressure, or just dash throw, possibly more options.

D1 only jails into f4, and barely. Although d1 throw is a klassic. That’s it. Imma find a free flowchart maker.
 
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"Somebody here said he was playing Cage like he would in MKX, thus causing frustration."

Yep, that was me. Or at least I'm one of the people that's saying that.

I also have to laugh at that Scorpion player calling a Cage player a bitch. Cage is one of the most honest characters in the game; if a Cage player beats you as Scorpion, it's because you were outmatched.
It took me a while to come to terms with the stamina meter being removed, but at least Cage is the only character that can cancel out of fatal blows, if I'm not mistaken. They catered to the whiners, but I'm past that and I'm adapting.
We got him bois. We got him.

But nah, realtalk, super psyched that you stuck it out and found your footing with him. And I actually think Frost is a solid contender for worst character.

I still disagree on the f3 thing, just cuz it’d make our f4 pointless. I think speeding up f4 a few frames is the healthier buff because it adds more depth than constant f3’s. Also I realized today that our d4 being so insanely + on hit also lets us mindgame dash throws after they resepct the jail and block. Also, whoever mentioned f3 into throw was right, I thought it sounded gimmicky, but it’s decent.

Sub Zero- thin ice shouldn’t give you trouble. Some important things to remember, is that it is important to work in forceballs in this matchup. You need to make him think he can slide, and nuke his fucking ass to mars when he does. F3 punishes slide, or 34, whatever you wna use, just blow em up, end in nutpunch, and take him to flavor, er, mixup town. Forceballs are one of the few projectiles fast enough that you can disrupt his iceball rythm and get away with it. Use them carefully, only enough to make him slide, then make him regret not picking dead winter variation.

Remember that both low and OH are negative on block, as well as any stagger so it’s important to look for when to take your turn. Iceball is full combo punishable with 244. If you get the coin flip right, it’s important you take your rewards.

Past that it’s just a matchup that’s going to test your movement and neutral game really hard, as well as how good you are at waking up (fuck SZ’s throws). Outspacing him while being aware of when he could slide is difficult, but possible. Dead Winter is frustrating for his ability to take the skill out of the matchup and make it a coin flip, but remember that still gives you a 50% chance if you’re punishing when you guess right.

Fuck Geras. 212 is the most cancerous fucking pile of shit. And fuck Erron. You played one who uses the scudshot cancel? It makes his strings 0 on block, or close to it. Nothing hits him before he can block. And his normals, god, fuck that character. At least slide seems reactable, so one less mixup. Sonya, SZ, Scorpion- don’t care. Fighting Geras or Erron are the only times I don’t even want to play MK11.
Alright, so Kano sort of has a similar move with F43. If you played against Kano you'd know what it is. It's very slow and unsafe, but the fact that F4 is an overhead and 3 is a crushing blow makes up for it. Cage doesn't need an overhead, but if F4 was sped up as you say, and the second attack was a much better and viable crushing blow, I guess I'd be on board with it. If your opponent is blocking, you're playing Cage the right way. F43 the way it is now is ridiculous. It's like they intended for you to purposely miss the first kick.
The Cage player that beat me used brass knuckles and chipped me out at the end of every round with force balls. I didn't use brass knuckles enough to give an opinion on it, but I'll use it against Sub Zero and see how it works out.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Alright, so Kano sort of has a similar move with F43. If you played against Kano you'd know what it is. It's very slow and unsafe, but the fact that F4 is an overhead and 3 is a crushing blow makes up for it. Cage doesn't need an overhead, but if F4 was sped up as you say, and the second attack was a much better and viable crushing blow, I guess I'd be on board with it. If your opponent is blocking, you're playing Cage the right way. F43 the way it is now is ridiculous. It's like they intended for you to purposely miss the first kick.
The Cage player that beat me used brass knuckles and chipped me out at the end of every round with force balls. I didn't use brass knuckles enough to give an opinion on it, but I'll use it against Sub Zero and see how it works out.
A good SZ isn't going to let you activate Brass Knuckles. Iceballs are one problem, but I think he can also slide it on reaction. The only time you can use it is by ending a combo in 121 brass knuckles, but you give up your nutpunch/wakeup pressure which you NEED. Not worth it, imo.

And I forgot how shit the f43 KB is. I... Idk what they should do with that. I just meant lowering the startup of f4 from 14f to 12 or even 11 frames if we're being greedy. That would really set it apart from f3 as THE tool to stop neutral crouchers.

If they fix KB's we're going to be top tier. Not just because Johnny is solid, but because we've found so much tech with him because we're a bit weaker this time around. Yall seen the Liu Kang boards? Or the Skarlet or Cassie ones? There's practically no discussion. People using high/top tiers get complacent. The people using SZ/Geras/Erron/Sonya are going to fall apart after the slightest nerfs.
 
A good SZ isn't going to let you activate Brass Knuckles. Iceballs are one problem, but I think he can also slide it on reaction. The only time you can use it is by ending a combo in 121 brass knuckles, but you give up your nutpunch/wakeup pressure which you NEED. Not worth it, imo.

And I forgot how shit the f43 KB is. I... Idk what they should do with that. I just meant lowering the startup of f4 from 14f to 12 or even 11 frames if we're being greedy. That would really set it apart from f3 as THE tool to stop neutral crouchers.

If they fix KB's we're going to be top tier. Not just because Johnny is solid, but because we've found so much tech with him because we're a bit weaker this time around. Yall seen the Liu Kang boards? Or the Skarlet or Cassie ones? There's practically no discussion. People using high/top tiers get complacent. The people using SZ/Geras/Erron/Sonya are going to fall apart after the slightest nerfs.
I'll take your advice on Sub Zero and try things as I go. It's not like everyone and their mother picks him and Scorpion anyway. I shouldn't have a problem coming back here with advice/outcomes. I really have to start posting videos.
As far as the crushing blows go, the shadow kick should have one. It's already a high attack and very unsafe. You can't even amplify it. And/or make the second attack in F44 a crushing blow to the body. It's mainly used as a counter anyway and doesn't do that much damage on it's own. You wouldn't even need the extra frames, and your opponent would definitely think twice about poking rent free. Then you could leave F3 as it is.
 

kevkopdx

Noob
Here’s a Johnny Cage nerf I want to see immediately :
remove the animation of him playing with the fucking doll after he does a brutality. Ffs it takes longer than a fatality to end.
 
Who?
Here’s a Johnny Cage nerf I want to see immediately :
remove the animation of him playing with the fucking doll after he does a brutality. Ffs it takes longer than a fatality to end.
I'm glad to see someone mention this. It was funny the first two times, but it got annoying quick. I don't even do his fatalities online either. I hope they release his decap fatality again in a dlc or something as short. I recently started using Cage's F344 brutality, but the ending ruins it. Just have him sign an autograph and throw it on the corpse or something. It's like they tried to go overboard with the humor. That's why I loved Cage in MKX because it was a "mature" type of comedy if that makes sense. The intros especially.
 
I've said this before but making f43 end in an overhead would be a cute buff. Just make it not plus 7 on block so it's fair
That string could end in an unblockable overhead that transfers 100$ from their bank account to yours and still be fair lol. Also it's good to see everyone working on Johnny again. I'm making a video now for his jank hitboxes. I'll update when finished.
 

LarSanity

Who hired this guy
Playing alot of scorpions I hate trying to punish a teleport and getting d2, so im forced to d2 or f4 on teleport which doesnt allow you a full punish.

Edit- not at home at the moment but how fast is b2 forgot
 

FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
Playing alot of scorpions I hate trying to punish a teleport and getting d2, so im forced to d2 or f4 on teleport which doesnt allow you a full punish.

Edit- not at home at the moment but how fast is b2 forgot
B2 is 14 frames.

And are you talking about Scorpion's teleport cancel or just his normal one?