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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Fuck it. It looks like shit, but it's the best I can get so I guess I'll post it.

Flowcharts in general are extremely important in fighting games- the first task of a new player, is to establish one, whether they do it consciously or not. As one improves they record additional options, as well as keeping track of the success rates of options in different scenarios. Any pro will tell you that the main difference between good players and bad players is experience, and this illustrates why.

In light of that, I hope someone can benefit from this messy piece of shit. :mad:

14561
 
Last edited:
Fuck it. It looks like shit, but it's the best I can get so I guess I'll post it.

Flowcharts in general are extremely important in fighting games- the first task of a new player, is to establish one, whether they do it consciously or not. As one improves they record additional options, as well as keeping track of the success rates of options in different scenarios. Any pro will tell you that the main difference between good players and bad players is experience, and this illustrates why.

In light of that, I hope someone can benefit from this messy piece of shit. :mad:

View attachment 14561
This is a solid rough draft. We should for sure update this as we discover new tech as well as finding a way to make it more organized (no offense). Overall this is a good foundation
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Fuck it. It looks like shit, but it's the best I can get so I guess I'll post it.

Flowcharts in general are extremely important in fighting games- the first task of a new player, is to establish one, whether they do it consciously or not. As one improves they record additional options, as well as keeping track of the success rates of options in different scenarios. Any pro will tell you that the main difference between good players and bad players is experience, and this illustrates why.

In light of that, I hope someone can benefit from this messy piece of shit. :mad:

View attachment 14561
Its a bit messy, but still very much appreciated
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
This is a solid rough draft. We should for sure update this as we discover new tech as well as finding a way to make it more organized (no offense). Overall this is a good foundation
Don't think it lends itself to updates. Could be useful for some dude who jumps into the thread going "Wtf do I do, this character sux." Prolly about it, but hey, I was bored.
 
Don't think it lends itself to updates. Could be useful for some dude who jumps into the thread going "Wtf do I do, this character sux." Prolly about it, but hey, I was bored.
I mean it's more than what the other communities have to my knowledge. Eventually we'll make a guide well into the games life I'm sure. For know it's just our job to learn as much about the character as we can.
 

FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
When would be a good time to get a Living Guide or something going? It's been about a month, and it seems us Cage mains have a pretty good idea of his general gameplan, individual match-up knowledge still being a bit in the air. Starting now and evolving it as we move on would be a good call, yeah?
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
I mean it's more than what the other communities have to my knowledge. Eventually we'll make a guide well into the games life I'm sure. For know it's just our job to learn as much about the character as we can.
The only other character forum that I've seen which can top it is the Kitana forum, and that was insanely detailed, like combos based around countering special moves and combo strings of every character in the game
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
There are some important things to mention here because I think we're overselling some of his stuff too much.

f4 is -6
f44 is -5
Using any of these two will end your turn and make YOU guess an opponent d1/d3/d4 or grab. Using his only advancing mid will 100% give up your turn

f4 forceballs
Whiffs on more than half the cast on block and will get you full combo punished. Not viable at all unless you play against proper hitbox chars which aren't many

d3/d4 best pokes
We must mention here the lack of range on those compared to other chars(scorp,noob). One match against huge mid reaching chars (cassie, scorp,etc) will give you a rude awakening when your d4 is out of range and you will get full comboed

And last, we really have to stop using the "pressure" word with cage in mk11. He doesn't have pressure outside of d4 in f3 grab or string. For anyone who wants to understand what pressure feels like in mk11 I suggest a match against a good jacqui or liu kang.

Not to downplay or anything but I just want to avoid overselling. New players will come here and read that stuff and go online to get vaporized.
 
There are some important things to mention here because I think we're overselling some of his stuff too much.

f4 is -6
f44 is -5
Using any of these two will end your turn and make YOU guess an opponent d1/d3/d4 or grab. Using his only advancing mid will 100% give up your turn

f4 forceballs
Whiffs on more than half the cast on block and will get you full combo punished. Not viable at all unless you play against proper hitbox chars which aren't many

d3/d4 best pokes
We must mention here the lack of range on those compared to other chars(scorp,noob). One match against huge mid reaching chars (cassie, scorp,etc) will give you a rude awakening when your d4 is out of range and you will get full comboed

And last, we really have to stop using the "pressure" word with cage in mk11. He doesn't have pressure outside of d4 in f3 grab or string. For anyone who wants to understand what pressure feels like in mk11 I suggest a match against a good jacqui or liu kang.

Not to downplay or anything but I just want to avoid overselling. New players will come here and read that stuff and go online to get vaporized.
I'm not overselling at all. I'm getting better at the game, so obviously I'm learning the matchups. I came to the conclusion that Cage is not the worst character in the cast, but he's definitely not the best, ie, solid. He does have good pressure and I've played against good players. But no matter the slight buffs he'll most certainly get knowing NRS, I don't think he'll ever be a top tier character in this game. Why? No overhead. Assuming the hit boxes get fixed, grabbing will still play a huge part of our game.
Does he need one? Not at all. I've been winning without it.
Still, it's extremely annoying watching the other player just sit there crouched at mid screen waiting for me to mess up. He doesn't have to worry about something coming from up top.
It's what I've been saying since the beginning; people who know Cage's matchup will most certainly play like an asshole and exploit any gap they find. The annoying whiffing with force balls will get fixed, maybe. We don't know for sure. In the ninja threads they seem to think everything is fine and nothing needs to change.
I'll use Cage no matter what, because I always used him MK. To be honest, if I just started with this series I don't think I'd go near him.
The Scorpion always wins at the end of the day.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I would say the winning is not important. You can win with anyone because there are so many players out there, some new, some don't invest that much time, so you will never have 0 wins and 100000 losses.

The problem is not whether you win or lose, it's the road to the end of the match.

It's a bit demoralizing to watch your opponent just constantly put out 9 frame mids with liu kang and you just have to guess if it's a stagger, low fireball or +6. Sonya players just doing their 50-50s without a single care in the world because hey, who'd punish the overhead in 200 ping?

Sure, you can read them, you can work hard and win. But for me it's not that satisfactory knowing that the opponent was sipping his umbrella drink while I worked my @ss off.
 
Fuck it. It looks like shit, but it's the best I can get so I guess I'll post it.

Flowcharts in general are extremely important in fighting games- the first task of a new player, is to establish one, whether they do it consciously or not. As one improves they record additional options, as well as keeping track of the success rates of options in different scenarios. Any pro will tell you that the main difference between good players and bad players is experience, and this illustrates why.

In light of that, I hope someone can benefit from this messy piece of shit. :mad:

View attachment 14561

YESSSS! THANKS YOU ABSOLUTE MADMAN! KEEP US UPDATED WITH NEW TECH.
 

Edlaw

Noob
Some people are actually calling for Cage nerfs as they think his F344 and 244 are too plus on block.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Not to downplay or anything but I just want to avoid overselling. New players will come here and read that stuff and go online to get vaporized.
I don’t agree with your premise that new players will get bodied using the tech we’re talking about, but for the sake of argument let’s say that I do.

So our worst case scenario if they think Johnny is good is that they try him and lose some games. Alright.

Now what’s our worst case scenario if they come to the thread and think he’s bad? I’ll tell you what I do. I wanted to pick up Raiden, for example. Was wondering if he had potential, so I checked out his thread. Nothing but complaints and buff wishlists for pages and pages and pages on end. So I said fuck that. And just didn’t.

That’s the difference. I think it’s high time we moved on from where Johnny stands on the tier list to matchup specifics. Let’s work with what we got. If the first patch rolls in and it’s full of buffs for other people, and we don’t get hitbox fixes and KB changes, I’ll be the loudest fucking voice calling out NRS on that shit, but until then we should move forward as far as we can.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
I think Cage Rage is fine the way it is in terms of speed. Sure, it's easily poked out of, much like Liu Kang's final, delayed kick that causes a crushing blow. Not sure what the string is called. But if you're pressuring right, they usually don't attempt a poke as they're anticipating a grab or something else. I really don't understand how the charges work still. Sometimes it's fully charged after 2 hits, sometimes 4, regardless if it's blocked or not. It's weird and should be looked at. It's hilariously when you're using it throughout the match, then you hit the other guy when it's fully charged. They start shitting bricks and burn their meter out of fear and desperation. That's when you start going all out as your opponent is trying to jump away. Just run them down with F3 until they're in corner. They're pretty much demoralised at that point. I got hate mail from a Scorpion player telling me, "Quit playing like a bitch", because he couldn't handle Cage Rage.
About the charge issue....Are you sure you're not whiffing? On hit or whiff, Caged Rage resets it's level. It definitely shouldn't go away on whiff...Just another thing about Johnny that should be adjusted. Either fix the level change, or buff the move. Adding 2-4% damage on level 3 and a Krushing Blow seems fair. :)


Also, whoever mentioned f3 into throw was right, I thought it sounded gimmicky, but it’s decent.
Was that me? Haha. I do this a LOT man and it works soooo well. I think it seems gimmicky, but after a lot of F344 conditioning, they wait for the extra kicks. Easy to throw after that. Then they realize what you're doing and either for a tech or neutral duck and you go right back into using F344 for pressure/combo. F3 is an amazing stagger tool. If it was a mid, Johnny would be terrifying.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Yes but what if a dev reads the thread and doesn't think he's bad? :))))

Also, I'm watching this vids and it's like everyone is playing another game.

People getting actually hit by b34? What sorcery is this. Every single of my ranked matches I haven't opened anyone with it.
It's so slow that they keep mashing d3 and poke me out of it. Who in the world would wait to see what Cage does?

Also, no d3 spamming NON stop to poke you out of everything?

What is this online you guys play, I want in as well. I don't like mine at all.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Yes but what if a dev reads the thread and doesn't think he's bad? :))))

Also, I'm watching this vids and it's like everyone is playing another game.

People getting actually hit by b34? What sorcery is this. Every single of my ranked matches I haven't opened anyone with it.
Also, no d3 spamming NON stop to poke you out of everything?

What is this online you guys play, I want in as well. I don't like mine at all.
Bro, I was kidding about that! I really doubt that’s how they decide balance... I hope... and Dizzy is on the balance team. They ain’t comin here.

And upload some sets if you get time. Lately the only players taking any games off of me only do so using Geras or Erron, but it’s always a close set. Tryna add more people, but I can’t find anyone good on PC. Shoulda added this Kano who bodied me the other day. Laughing my ass off everytime I fight a Thin Ice Sub Zero. Like, you’d have a better chance of winning if you hadn’t slid at all. Wtf are you doing?

I still don’t play Johnny into any females though. Keeps my frustration levels much lower than if I only played him. That’s what my Skarlet and Liu Kang are for.
 

mrapchem

Noob
So I'm almost at 1,000 matches with Cage, and I'll admit I was wrong about a few things:
  1. His pokes are definitely some of the best in the game. I've been using them more and more, and they're even good at trading with some poke spammers, because D4 automatically jails into F3 if your opponent blocks. If D4 lands, you get a combo out of it. D3 is good in the corner, and even better against players that start using projectiles when they start fearing your pressure, because it doesn't push your opponent back. 244 works better after D3. Cage's D1 is ok, though it lacks range. You're never going to beat Geras at his D1 game anyway. You should utilize the other two pokes more.
  2. His force balls are more than fine. You can amplify them after F4 to keep your opponent blocking and guessing. They almost always whiff if your opponent is ducking, especially females, but this can easily be fixed when NRS deals with the hitbox issues. Still, you shouldn't trade with anyone for prolonged periods of time. Sub-Zero, Erron Black, definitely Sonya, and a few others WILL make you pay for it. Use them intermittently.
  3. I think Cage Rage is fine the way it is in terms of speed. Sure, it's easily poked out of, much like Liu Kang's final, delayed kick that causes a crushing blow. Not sure what the string is called. But if you're pressuring right, they usually don't attempt a poke as they're anticipating a grab or something else. I really don't understand how the charges work still. Sometimes it's fully charged after 2 hits, sometimes 4, regardless if it's blocked or not. It's weird and should be looked at. It's hilariously when you're using it throughout the match, then you hit the other guy when it's fully charged. They start shitting bricks and burn their meter out of fear and desperation. That's when you start going all out as your opponent is trying to jump away. Just run them down with F3 until they're in corner. They're pretty much demoralised at that point. I got hate mail from a Scorpion player telling me, "Quit playing like a bitch", because he couldn't handle Cage Rage.
A while ago, I claimed that Cage was the worst character in the game, but I think that title goes to Kotal Khan or Shao Khan. Cage is definitely solid, but not top tier. If you're patient, you can beat most anybody. Somebody here said he was playing Cage like he would in MKX, thus causing frustration. This was my problem too. He's meant to use spacing and start his pressure at mid range, before getting aggressive. I learned this first hand from getting my ass beat in a mirror match by another Cage.
Obviously his crushing blows need to be fixed, and they should just scrap his entire second variation.
Cage doesn't even get to utilize a core mechanic.
I'm still a firm believer that F3 need a to be mid attack. Everybody is fishing for uppercuts. If somebody good starts poking, have fun grabbing the rest of the match. If Cage had an overhead starter from the beginning in place of B34, this wouldn't be an issue.
Of all the characters in the game, I still can't beat Sub Zero if the player is good. Those brain dead 50/50s...some of the worst I've ever seen. It's like you can't even block the overheads in time after ducking, because they're so fast. Those stupid ice balls that destroy your projectiles, the air-axe spammers. The damned slide into a crushing. If anybody has tips against Sub Zero, I'm all ears. For some reason I'm actually much better against Scorpion and Erron Black. Everybody sucks against Geras though.

When it comes to JC, everything that was said here is spot on. Johnny Cage is super fun and honest...perhaps a bit too honest, as many of his best buttons have the caveat of either being high or semi-sluggish. And he doesn't know what a KB is, unless it's that damn accidental F34!

As for Sub-Zero, his 50/50s are enhanced by the nature of online. Offline in the real game, our best players are already reacting to the overhead. It won't be too long before everyone else's ability to scout and punish that overhead is also improved. What you can do is go to the lab, record the opponent Sub-Zero doing the overhead in Slot 1, the low in Slot 2 and then when you're playing the replays back, set it to replay random. This way, you can replicate the 50-50 guess you'd be doing against a Sub online. It'd be even better if you set the online delay to "On", to replicate online conditions even better. Also, any follow-up Sub-Zero has after an overhead is full-combo punishable, so you can use that 12-Nut Punch to destroy a Sub for using that overhead or that slide.

I play both characters, as well as Scorpion and a few others, so I hope I can be of some help to JC players.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Yes but what if a dev reads the thread and doesn't think he's bad? :))))

Also, I'm watching this vids and it's like everyone is playing another game.

People getting actually hit by b34? What sorcery is this. Every single of my ranked matches I haven't opened anyone with it.
It's so slow that they keep mashing d3 and poke me out of it. Who in the world would wait to see what Cage does?

Also, no d3 spamming NON stop to poke you out of everything?

What is this online you guys play, I want in as well. I don't like mine at all.
I find it odd that you dont land B34. Are you attempting it raw? If so, you're going to have a bad time. It tends to only land if you're whiff punishing or countering whatever the opponent is doing. I generally only do it after a back dash, or back walk to catch their string. For example...D4 on hit causes a slight knock back. Sure, you could go for the free F3, but mix it up by backing up and attempting the B3. It has really good range, you have to check them with it sometimes.
 

mrapchem

Noob
There are some important things to mention here because I think we're overselling some of his stuff too much.

f4 is -6
f44 is -5
Using any of these two will end your turn and make YOU guess an opponent d1/d3/d4 or grab. Using his only advancing mid will 100% give up your turn

f4 forceballs
Whiffs on more than half the cast on block and will get you full combo punished. Not viable at all unless you play against proper hitbox chars which aren't many

d3/d4 best pokes
We must mention here the lack of range on those compared to other chars(scorp,noob). One match against huge mid reaching chars (cassie, scorp,etc) will give you a rude awakening when your d4 is out of range and you will get full comboed

And last, we really have to stop using the "pressure" word with cage in mk11. He doesn't have pressure outside of d4 in f3 grab or string. For anyone who wants to understand what pressure feels like in mk11 I suggest a match against a good jacqui or liu kang.

Not to downplay or anything but I just want to avoid overselling. New players will come here and read that stuff and go online to get vaporized.
That damn F4 and F44 needs some work...I wouldn't have an issue with it either being neutral or slightly plus on block since it doesn't combo. As you stated, it seems that F4's main purpose is to be cancelled into either an EX-fireball or Caged Rage, both of which can be ducked.

The way I see it, if Scorpion's F3 can be a 13-frame staggerable mid that kombos, why can't JC's F4 - and his F3 for that matter - be equally scary?