MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[Name v.5.0]

I absolutely can’t stand Liu kang, so obnoxious.

He should be no threat to you. His main stagger string, F34U3, is worthless. You can beat almost everything he does after F34 with D4. On hit you get a free F3. His pressure is totally fake. He has NO mixup with B2 into the low or the stance cancel into overhead. It's completely blockable. If he does the overhead you can block and full combo punish. After you make it clear he can't use his garbage, he'll try to use his parry. Keep D4ing the fuck outta him. His fireball game isnt really that good either. Johnny is faster. He'll go low with fireballs, then you can move in and his Amped fireball is really not hard to flawless block into Shadow Kick. Just practice it.

Seriously. Liu Kang is a bill. He's NOT as good as anyone makes him out to be. His pressure is actually very similar to ours. Eventually he's stuck staggering JUST F3, which you can also D4. D4 stagger his ass and just throw him over and over. You can also abuse F344, backdash into B3. He doesn't have the range to contend with it.

This is a straight up fight that I think Cage wins simply because we have better normals. At the moment it feels like a 5-5 MU, but I won't be surprised if it goes 6-4 in Johnny's favor.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

He should be no threat to you. His main stagger string, F34U3, is worthless. You can beat almost everything he does after F34 with D4. On hit you get a free F3. His pressure is totally fake. He has NO mixup with B2 into the low or the stance cancel into overhead. It's completely blockable. If he does the overhead you can block and full combo punish. After you make it clear he can't use his garbage, he'll try to use his parry. Keep D4ing the fuck outta him. His fireball game isnt really that good either. Johnny is faster. He'll go low with fireballs, then you can move in and his Amped fireball is really not hard to flawless block into Shadow Kick. Just practice it.

Seriously. Liu Kang is a bill. He's NOT as good as anyone makes him out to be. His pressure is actually very similar to ours. Eventually he's stuck staggering JUST F3, which you can also D4. D4 stagger his ass and just throw him over and over. You can also abuse F344, backdash into B3. He doesn't have the range to contend with it.

This is a straight up fight that I think Cage wins simply because we have better normals. At the moment it feels like a 5-5 MU, but I won't be surprised if it goes 6-4 in Johnny's favor.

It’s annoying cause when I try to request games with a decent one they just ignore it so I get stuck facing bozos in ranked.

 

[Wrath0594]

Holy fucking... My god. Just fought a slew of Erron’s and Geras’. So fucking brainless. Not guna lie, ended up switching to Liu to beat one. Johnny set was 2-3, Liu 3-1. Erron’s d4 pushes us out of range for all of our normals, and his gun cancel leaves him at 0 and his normals are faster... Christ. Will prolly upload later. I can see why people are frustrated.

Must... Not... Blame... Character... Hrrrg.

 

[M.D.]

Now you all see how fun matches are against chars which play mk11 like us. They feel so natural and balanced.

Then, when you fight the mkx tier, everything comes crumbling down in tears.

 

[ReoSpeedwagon]

@NewMK11Player thanks man, I appreciate it. Been having a lot of issues rendering videos for the last few days. Got more matches ready for when I figure that out.

Also there was a Johnny on Texas Showdown Day 1 stream named "Guy in Green" that was pretty good. He opened my eyes to playing from midrange more often. Was doing a great job of denying Geras anything but in the end if Geras gets 2 clean hits you're dead so it does't always work out. His gameplan seemed to be to play from a distance where he could dash b34, or f344 and playing around with that in practice mode it's really fast. Both those strings leave you at a range you can easily walk back again.

@M.D. this game really is so fun in certain matchups. Wish you could ban at least one character when searching for ranked haha

 

[WhooFlungPoo]

Yes guys, can we get back on topic? For those who are successful with Johnny and doing well, what are your go to strings? and which ones do you cancel into?

So far I just cancel into his projectile from his b32 and f344 but i feel those are just surface level

Iv been fairly successful with him online. Im no offline player. The players i play that i upload seem to be pretty decent. Posted a couple of vids on johnnys'pressure game, and matches getting through zoning. Its more than strings. Its about using tools, spacing and utilizing foktsies through spacing. Johnnys go to is a low, so if youre not throwing, using safe block strings and countering, special canceling off pokes, jump over kicks and punches to get em to block high, then you ,ay be doing it wrong or right, cause i dont even know if im playing him right. What i do knkw is i tend to win matches, have close matches, and have fun figuring it out.

 

[ReoSpeedwagon]

Here's a ranked set vs Kollector. Had one vs Raiden I wanted to upload for whiffed forceballs etc but the file is corrupt.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

He should be no threat to you. His main stagger string, F34U3, is worthless. You can beat almost everything he does after F34 with D4. On hit you get a free F3. His pressure is totally fake. He has NO mixup with B2 into the low or the stance cancel into overhead. It's completely blockable. If he does the overhead you can block and full combo punish. After you make it clear he can't use his garbage, he'll try to use his parry. Keep D4ing the fuck outta him. His fireball game isnt really that good either. Johnny is faster. He'll go low with fireballs, then you can move in and his Amped fireball is really not hard to flawless block into Shadow Kick. Just practice it.

Seriously. Liu Kang is a bill. He's NOT as good as anyone makes him out to be. His pressure is actually very similar to ours. Eventually he's stuck staggering JUST F3, which you can also D4. D4 stagger his ass and just throw him over and over. You can also abuse F344, backdash into B3. He doesn't have the range to contend with it.

This is a straight up fight that I think Cage wins simply because we have better normals. At the moment it feels like a 5-5 MU, but I won't be surprised if it goes 6-4 in Johnny's favor.

I don’t know man, this feels like how you are with kotal, those stupid kicks make me feel trapped and sometimes when I try to poke the gap I get crushing blowed with the last hit of the string, it feels like a nightmare.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

So after all that discussion we all agree on two things : Show Stopper sucks and Johnny lacks usable KBs. So I thought a lot about how to make Showstopper a viable variation and make reliable but fair KBs and here's the result of my thoughts.
I wanted to make Showstopper at least as viable as Shock Jock, and I don't want to make it too powerful at the same time. I might be wrong but it looked like a decent rework to me :

- Say Cheese still costs 2 slots but no longer conflicts with the nutpunch, so Johnny will have access to both tools at the same time. Say Cheese's input is now bd4.
This change will allow Johnny to have access to his nutpunch, so he can still hit confirm b34 and the f4 into nutpunch midscreen and still have a more reliable restand tool in the corner. But with the Say Cheese, he can have access to his unbreakable damage off a f344/244... It gives Johnny more offensive tools.
- Throwing shades is now a true mid projectile, but its range remains untouched. Throwing Shades is now -6 on block. The start up should be long enough for the opponent to release his block button to try a flawless block. The recovery should be long enough to guarantee a reversal Flawless Block u2 if the flawless block was successful.

The Say Cheese KB requirements become : Say Cheese MB must connect 3 times before giving access to the KB
Throwing Shades KB : Throwing shades must connect to a kombo of 8 hits or more (doesn't trigger the KB if the opponent is in a juggle state)

Universal change : the F43 KB requirement become : Johnny has to connect f43 as a punish or a kounter (both hits have to connect), the damage of the KB should be reduced.
The KB is now way easier to trigger, but lower risk to trigger it means lower reward. Almost everybody in the kast as a KB on a string used as a kounter or punish.


Nutpunch KB : The nutpunch MB must connect 3 times before giving acces to the KB (deals low damage but triggers Damage over Time that does not scale with the current combo)
The current KB is not impossible to trigger, but JC currently loses too much damage by triggering it, so it's not worth it.

That's it, I hope it wasn't unreasonable changes, I did my best to not make it too strong but, in my humble opinion, it seems fair.

What do you think about it ?

 

[Dean]

For the love of all that is holy...


Can someone please give me some advice in the Jacqui Briggs matchup? I just got steam rolled, I'm in the lab and I'm trying to duplicate but I can't figure it out. I know she has a plus string that is excellent for kounter snuffing.

Her cancels are so fast too, I couldn't figure out where my turn was and kept guessing wrong. I tried to space out her strings by walking backwards but kept getting clipped by her leg mid for a full combo.

I've never felt so gross In my life. lmao

Some advanced and general tips in this matchup would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT*

To add to this.

F344 MB FB useless because of female hitbox
I did not know how to counter any of her strings, what strings should I be using? We dont have a fast mid?
D1 blocked obviously is the worst and only helps someone like Jaqui.
So frustrated with this matchup right now. I feel like Jacqui has everything Johnny should. Lame.

 

[Dean]

So after all that discussion we all agree on two things : Show Stopper sucks and Johnny lacks usable KBs. So I thought a lot about how to make Showstopper a viable variation and make reliable but fair KBs and here's the result of my thoughts.
I wanted to make Showstopper at least as viable as Shock Jock, and I don't want to make it too powerful at the same time. I might be wrong but it looked like a decent rework to me :

- Say Cheese still costs 2 slots but no longer conflicts with the nutpunch, so Johnny will have access to both tools at the same time. Say Cheese's input is now bd4.
This change will allow Johnny to have access to his nutpunch, so he can still hit confirm b34 and the f4 into nutpunch midscreen and still have a more reliable restand tool in the corner. But with the Say Cheese, he can have access to his unbreakable damage off a f344/244... It gives Johnny more offensive tools.
- Throwing shades is now a true mid projectile, but its range remains untouched. Throwing Shades is now -6 on block. The start up should be long enough for the opponent to release his block button to try a flawless block. The recovery should be long enough to guarantee a reversal Flawless Block u2 if the flawless block was successful.

The Say Cheese KB requirements become : Say Cheese MB must connect 3 times before giving access to the KB
Throwing Shades KB : Throwing shades must connect to a kombo of 8 hits or more (doesn't trigger the KB if the opponent is in a juggle state)

Universal change : the F43 KB requirement become : Johnny has to connect f43 as a punish or a kounter (both hits have to connect), the damage of the KB should be reduced.
The KB is now way easier to trigger, but lower risk to trigger it means lower reward. Almost everybody in the kast as a KB on a string used as a kounter or punish.


Nutpunch KB : The nutpunch MB must connect 3 times before giving acces to the KB (deals low damage but triggers Damage over Time that does not scale with the current combo)
The current KB is not impossible to trigger, but JC currently loses too much damage by triggering it, so it's not worth it.

That's it, I hope it wasn't unreasonable changes, I did my best to not make it too strong but, in my humble opinion, it seems fair.

What do you think about it ?

Say Cheese and Nutpunch is too much in my opinion. You would have a decent combo extender and a really good restand in the same variation. Too strong IMO.

I like the KB ideas a lot though.

Throwing Shades makes me cringe, I don't know why, not your suggestion, just the design of the move in general. Visually, I just hate it. Maybe I'm broken. lol

 

[Wrath0594]

Seriously. Liu Kang is a bill. He's NOT as good as anyone makes him out to be. His pressure is actually very similar to ours.

This sums it up perfectly. I like LK because he plays very similarly to both MKX and MK11 Johnny. His f43 is basically Johnny’s 11 from MKX. As far as MK11 JC goes, he and LK share top tier walk/dash speed and a reliance on conditioning and footsies rather than mixups.

 

[DrFolmer]

For the love of all that is holy...


Can someone please give me some advice in the Jacqui Briggs matchup? I just got steam rolled, I'm in the lab and I'm trying to duplicate but I can't figure it out. I know she has a plus string that is excellent for kounter snuffing.

Her cancels are so fast too, I couldn't figure out where my turn was and kept guessing wrong. I tried to space out her strings by walking backwards but kept getting clipped by her leg mid for a full combo.

I've never felt so gross In my life. lmao

Some advanced and general tips in this matchup would be greatly appreciated.

I feel ya homie. I got absolutely disintegrated by a jacqui today. She teched every single damn throw and punished me for it. On top of that she was super patient when I got out of her pressure. It was only afterwards I was like "hey I could have reversal parried her" - but it is what it is. Thing is, she can take all the time she wants. While she is primarily scary up close, her neutral is not to be underrated either with b22 covering a lot of screen.

Haven't actually tested this so it's all thoughts tbh. I know it's a risk, but the combo you get is nice but more importantly - she has to consider that option when she's in

 

[JohnyCagedAnimal]

Holy fucking... My god. Just fought a slew of Erron’s and Geras’. So fucking brainless. Not guna lie, ended up switching to Liu to beat one. Johnny set was 2-3, Liu 3-1. Erron’s d4 pushes us out of range for all of our normals, and his gun cancel leaves him at 0 and his normals are faster... Christ. Will prolly upload later. I can see why people are frustrated.

Must... Not... Blame... Character... Hrrrg.

Are you starting to get the picture now Wraith? Try playing a good Cetrion character with Johny now

 

[JohnyCagedAnimal]

You love him so much you don't even spell his name right. Nice

GTFO with that grammar police crap. Don't you have some grad school kids to peg?

 

[Wrath0594]

Are you starting to get the picture now Wraith? Try playing a good Cetrion character with Johny now

I’ve been outzoned by good Cetrions. I went 2-3 vs one with Liu Kang just yesterday. But I recognize where I misplayed. I stand by my statement that it’s more the top tier 5 characters need nerfs more than it’s us needing buffs.

It’s like M.D. said, Johnny feels fine vs everyone else. I don’t think our character is too weak, I think shit like Geras 212 is too strong. It’s what, -2 on block? Mid mid overhead with no gaps, and cancellable. So you don’t have enough time to confirm whether he special cancelled or not to take your turn, and he’s free to maintain pressure.

Nerf them, fix our hitboxes. Their op shit doesn’t specifically hurt Johnny. It’s a problem that affects everyone that isn’t top 5.

 

[JohnyCagedAnimal]

I’ve been outzoned by good Cetrions. I went 2-3 vs one with Liu Kang just yesterday. But I recognize where I misplayed. I stand by my statement that it’s more the top tier 5 characters need nerfs more than it’s us needing buffs.

It’s like M.D. said, Johnny feels fine vs everyone else. I don’t think our character is too weak, I think shit like Geras 212 is too strong. It’s what, -2 on block? Mid mid overhead with no gaps, and cancellable. So you don’t have enough time to confirm whether he special cancelled or not to take your turn, and he’s free to maintain pressure.

Nerf them, fix our hitboxes.

From my experience Johnny struggles with Cetrion, Geras, Liu Kang, Kitana, and Kano

 

[Wrath0594]

From my experience Johnny struggles with Cetrion, Geras, Liu Kang, Kitana, and Kano

Everyone struggles vs Geras. Barring forceball hitboxes, I disagree with the rest. Cetrion is strong, but good movement helps mitigate it. Prolly 6-4 MU at the highest levels. 7-3 at worst. Everyone without a teleport kinda gets fucked up by her. Skarlet too to a degree. They both have fullscreen frame traps, but I don’t think it’s anything worse than what we dealt with counterzoning in MKX.

 

[M.D.]

f43 KB should be on punish or counter, yes, but don't reduce the damage lol.
Have you seen Sub Zero Kb that he gets for free in the corner? Lawl.
The chances for you to get a punish with a 14 frame mid are abysimal, and since d4s out spam our mid, getting a counter is also very slim so it should be very powerful.

Don't forget about the parry KB as well. It shouldn't be as liu kang's because we have slower startup, so it should trigger the second time after you land a POST-amplified parry (important, not an extended one which you will never land, but a mb one that allows a combo after).

 

[JohnyCagedAnimal]

Everyone struggles vs Geras. Barring forceball hitboxes, I disagree with the rest. Cetrion is strong, but good movement helps mitigate it. Prolly 6-4 MU at the highest levels. 7-3 at worst. Everyone without a teleport kinda gets fucked up by her. Skarlet too to a degree. They both have fullscreen frame traps, but I don’t think it’s anything worse than what we dealt with counterzoning in MKX.

But that's the problem can't teleport alot of her moves amplified push back making it much harder to punish with shadow kick.. Erron alot of the time destoys Johnny with his mid range mix-ups and The rest can just out poke johny

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Say Cheese and Nutpunch is too much in my opinion. You would have a decent combo extender and a really good restand in the same variation. Too strong IMO.

I like the KB ideas a lot though.

This is what I thought first, but the reason why I chose to put both is because we already had an idea of how Johnny plays without his nutpunch. That tool is way too important in his kit. If both moves are in the same variation is indeed too powerful, then increasing the damage scaling on the Say Cheese could be a good solution. I don't think it would be OP, but that's just my opinion.
What's your thoughts about the Throwing Shades ?

f43 KB should be on punish or counter, yes, but don't reduce the damage lol.
Have you seen Sub Zero Kb that he gets for free in the corner? Lawl.
The chances for you to get a punish with a 14 frame mid are abysimal, and since d4s out spam our mid, getting a counter is also very slim so it should be very powerful.

Don't forget about the parry KB as well. It shouldn't be as liu kang's because we have slower startup, so it should trigger the second time after you land a POST-amplified parry (important, not an extended one which you will never land, but a mb one that allows a combo after).

Yeah, seems fair to me.

I agree for the parry KB requirement.

 

[Edlaw]

Hope they will add the rising shoulder move in a tournament loadout. It makes corner combo looks so much more swaggy.

 

[M.D.]

Think of the largest natural number known to man that can be stocked on the biggest most advanced existent stocking media out there.
Now factorial this number, and raise it at a power with itself.

Refer to this new obtained number as X.

The single fact that you can combo after the rising shoulder move in the corner makes it a X times better move than flippy kick.

 

[Rpgz]

Yo NRS, my man needs ez KBs like Liu Kang NOW! thanks again!

 

[Javoo On Fire]

Hope they will add the rising shoulder move in a tournament loadout. It makes corner combo looks so much more swaggy.

dude that's sick lol