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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

mrapchem

Noob
What I'm having trouble with is to not be stupid in this match. I mean, since his projectile wins the trade into full combo and he can check you with slide, and even add the trap once in a while. And then you have those f2 into the special cancelable amplified which gives pushback and is safe and on top a low starter which is also safe. It's hard to remain patient and play defensively, and enables him to be lame and you having to chase and be keep pressure whenever close. Avalanche can play completely safe minus the slides, and that puts you in a strategically inferior position.
I understand what you mean. I would urge you to remember this: there is no reason to constantly pressure an opponent with Johnny Cage. As a matter of fact, Cage doesn't really play that way in this game. If this were MK9, or even MKX, then he would be. He is a post-sweep distance character that makes opponents whiff and then hit opponents with F3/F4/B3 for their troubles.

Instead, you need to obtain a life-lead and then back away and let the Sub come to you. That's when you can start checking them with surprise fireballs from mid-screen and closer. That's when you begin using F4 into EX-forceballs into more pressure. I forgot to mention that EX-Forceball pressure absolutely works on Sub-Zero, so you need to be taking advantage of that.

Actually, if you don't mind, could you post some of your match footage against a Sub-Zero? I play both characters as my main, so I can definitely be of help to you.
 

thlityoursloat

Scarlet peeing
I understand what you mean. I would urge you to remember this: there is no reason to constantly pressure an opponent with Johnny Cage. As a matter of fact, Cage doesn't really play that way in this game. If this were MK9, or even MKX, then he would be. He is a post-sweep distance character that makes opponents whiff and then hit opponents with F3/F4/B3 for their troubles.

Instead, you need to obtain a life-lead and then back away and let the Sub come to you. That's when you can start checking them with surprise fireballs from mid-screen and closer. That's when you begin using F4 into EX-forceballs into more pressure. I forgot to mention that EX-Forceball pressure absolutely works on Sub-Zero, so you need to be taking advantage of that.

Actually, if you don't mind, could you post some of your match footage against a Sub-Zero? I play both characters as my main, so I can definitely be of help to you.
until I inevitably get oonga boonga slid into oonga boonga moonwalking 50/50s.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Saw a lot of 1s and 2s whiffing and nobody poking in top 8.

Sounds like it's time for some people to learn the matchup.

To anyone who comments, please don't make me timestamp all the whiffs in the video, it will take a lot of work and prove you are clueless.
Just watch it yourself and realise in loneliness that you are clueless, think of it as a bonus that the whole world doesn't have to know.

Thanks.
 
Saw an awful lot of Cage in top 8 yesterday.

I think it's time for some people to apologize for their downplaying.

You know who you are...
Downplay? Where? This sub forum has been dead for like a month it seems.

Is this 3 months ago?

Are you a time traveler?

Marty McFly is that you?

4 months ago Rodney Quillz apologizes Marty.

Are you happy? Tell doc brown that I am sorry too.
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Downplay? Where? This sub forum has been dead for like a month it seems.

Is this 3 months ago?

Are you a time traveler?

Marty McFly is that you?

4 months ago Rodney Quillz apologizes Marty.

Are you happy? Tell doc brown that I am sorry too.
Apology accepted, Biff.

Saw a lot of 1s and 2s whiffing and nobody poking in top 8.

Sounds like it's time for some people to learn the matchup.

To anyone who comments, please don't make me timestamp all the whiffs in the video, it will take a lot of work and prove you are clueless.
Just watch it yourself and realise in loneliness that you are clueless, think of it as a bonus that the whole world doesn't have to know.

Thanks.
Been hearing this 1s and 2s whiffing and "they didn't know the matchup" excuse for a while. NEWS FLASH: Lot's of 1s and 2s whiff in this game. And if you don't think that pro's know this MU just as well as the others then that's just you being delusional a this point. It's real easy to be a Monday Morning QB and say "X player could have done this in this situation and they didn't." Nobody is playing every MU flawlessly and even if they were, Johnny would still have the same presence in top 8.
 
Apology accepted, Biff.



Been hearing this 1s and 2s whiffing and "they didn't know the matchup" excuse for a while. NEWS FLASH: Lot's of 1s and 2s whiff in this game. And if you don't think that pro's know this MU just as well as the others then that's just you being delusional a this point. It's real easy to be a Monday Morning QB and say "X player could have done this in this situation and they didn't." Nobody is playing every MU flawlessly and even if they were, Johnny would still have the same presence in top 8.
Hey I might have been a big dummy and lost at the end but I sure did enjoy making your daddy my bitch for a runtime of an hour and 56 minutes.

Good job on kissing your mom by the way.


P.S - thanks 4 accepting my apology.

Sincerely yours.

- Biff.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Been hearing this 1s and 2s whiffing and "they didn't know the matchup" excuse for a while. NEWS FLASH: Lot's of 1s and 2s whiff in this game. And if you don't think that pro's know this MU just as well as the others then that's just you being delusional a this point. It's real easy to be a Monday Morning QB and say "X player could have done this in this situation and they didn't." Nobody is playing every MU flawlessly and even if they were, Johnny would still have the same presence in top 8.
When you have an 18 frame gap before anything hits you, and you just sit there with a 6 frame d1, then you're the delusional one.
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Been hearing this 1s and 2s whiffing and "they didn't know the matchup" excuse for a while. NEWS FLASH: Lot's of 1s and 2s whiff in this game
And these usually have an 9-11 frame mid as their main combo starting string anyway, and this is where the strike throw mixup becomes a threat. Contrary to what you might think, it's actually not a lot of people who rely on high starters for their main offense. Do you recall why people were head over heels in the Liu vs Cage matchup? One of Kang's best tools for staggers and continuation of pressure was the 12 string - take this away from him and his upclose game suffers. There were other whiffing issues, but these were later fixed.

And listen, the large majority here says Cage is really good. I for one recognize that Outtake is way too strong and needs toning down - he should not have top zoning and safe d1 bullshit.

When someone picks a character who Johnny whiffs on, it makes things much more limited. Plusframe staggers are gone, in Show Stopper, zoning relatively easy to deal with since you can crouch block and STILL have them whiff (and it also takes away plus 6 forceballs). If the opponent is very skilled, he will recognize these aspects and abuse the shit out of micro ducks/blocks due to it being relatively easier to cover multiple options upclose that way. But that just doesnt apply to Outtake because he doesnt give a shit, he can just sit back and throw projectiles anyway on top of excellent footsies. And I know, people outright saying he's trash are ehhhhhhhhh - but I would advise you to pick up Shock Jock and play against good opponents. Theory fighting is always easy, and that's for both sides of the arguments
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I expected the downplayers have better excuses then "but he didnt know the mu, he didnt play optimal".
I think the trickiest thing about this defense is that it always assumes that the players of the character in question (in this case, Cage players) were also playing every MU 100% optimally. When most likely, they were not.

So it kind of evens out in the end.
 
I'm no authority on the matter and probably a mid-average player at best, but I don't think the top 3 buzz surrounding cage is real, just trend.

In general I don't buy into these tier lists. There can be many of them that will be correct depending on the value that was in the mind of the author that divided them in the first place.

I think Johnny's outtake is good against certain mus that show stopper/shock jock wasn't, which make Johnny as a WHOLE a better character. Outtake zoning abilities made Johnny's mu against skarlet, cetrion, kabal, digital soldier's Cassie, and some more a VIABLE mu when before it was a really bad one.

So in general he improved from one viable variation into having 2 that compliment each other.
In that sense, you could still pick 'better' than him character for each variation's mu. So is show stopper / outtake top 3? Meh. But as a character he can DEAL with most of the cast using both. Which is great for a 'loyalist' (aka lazy to learn new characters).

Another issue is regarding online and the usual opponents gameplay that you actually meet.
Johnny's general gameplay is very reliant on reads, footsies and respect of the plus frames. In addition he's dependent on strict timing (d4 into f344) and respect/fear in order to jail into his highs (s1/s2 and follow up strings) and generally slowish strings (getting d2ed after an opponent's negative & punishable string can lead to major nerves breakdown).
In online surroundings you suffer from lags that hurt your core gameplay to jail (getting d2 after d4, poked after nut punch restand, 12 stagger) and use of plus frames.
What's even more important is that most players are random and/or mashy and/or not adapting so you can't really condition them/force your gameplay. I believe Johnny is inherently weak in that situations (hmm yolo d2 hmm) and that in turn can limit your gameplay into mainly punishes and use of f4/d1/d4 strings.
Pros, offline and high level competition is a different beast - the more patient, slow paced, non yolo, offline input settings makes him shine better. Spice it with a little of the sonic said factor and hell break loose.

Few notes on popular whiffing and 'fake' plus frames.
Whiffing issues in both hitbox/hurtbox is an issue for all. The whiffing of the projectiles on 'female' hitbox is plain stupid from a design standpoint. If in principle highs hit crouch blocked opponents then any deviation from that is a hole in the game's logic. You have to play around what works in the lab/actual fight and not how the game lays out his mechanics. It's a case of 'don't hate the player hate the game'. A lot of chars have whiffing issues but Johnny is one of them that is hurt on one of his key tools. And I usually play outtake exactly in that situations where show stopper whiffs so I could make use of his other tools (BTW I think that beside zoning wars show stopper is better than outtake if he didn't have this whiffing issues)

Regarding plus frames, I believe they're solid. He has so many plus strings that if a follow up was guaranteed you could jail the whole match. But on each of his plus frames he still have a great option select and conditioning. If opponent is not respecting and pokes, you can poke/safe jump/whiff punish. If he's reverse special attacking you can expect and block and usually punish the string, most are negative. If he's jumping you could aa or just f3 stagger. If he's walking back you can jump or use kick special. Then when the opponent respects and block you can start throw and force your game.

Regarding krushing blows, well... It blows. What's good for him is that he have an above average damage but hard to open opponents and weak throw game. I think he needs a throw krushing blow and nut punch krushing blow that is worth using (higher damage or doesn't need to be amplified).

That is all.
 
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