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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

Tundra81

This is re-goddamned-diculous
Premium Supporter
How do y'all feel about the Noob MU, I might just be trash but it feels like I'm approaching it wrong.
Bro I was going to come here the other night and ask the same question 'cause I've been getting worked by Noob's lately, lol. He hits like a truck, you can't really zone him and he's got really good range. Been a tough MU lately for me lately as well.

Edit: I've been playing nothing but Outtake lately too, may Show Stopper would be the way to go like Rizz said.
 
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M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Noob's d4 is cancer as it destroys any jump in attempt and kills all your +6 walkback mindgames since you can't walkback because he clips you.

However he can't open you up either so it becomes a matter of who loses patience first, which can drag on for a lot. Not necessarily a fan of this matchup because it's very boring since you both play cat and mouse.

Also, I have finally flipped with the top1 imbecility so I did this:

Disclaimer: foul language VERY present

 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Noob's d4 is cancer as it destroys any jump in attempt and kills all your +6 walkback mindgames since you can't walkback because he clips you.

However he can't open you up either so it becomes a matter of who loses patience first, which can drag on for a lot. Not necessarily a fan of this matchup because it's very boring since you both play cat and mouse.

Also, I have finally flipped with the top1 imbecility so I did this:

Disclaimer: foul language VERY present

Noob "not opening you up" is a fucking meme. The fucker has an autoshimmy that launches, a 50m grab and 2 grab KBs.
The character is the godfather of the d3 d3 d3 grab mixup. Horrendous.
 

Tundra81

This is re-goddamned-diculous
Premium Supporter
Noob's d4 is cancer as it destroys any jump in attempt and kills all your +6 walkback mindgames since you can't walkback because he clips you.

However he can't open you up either so it becomes a matter of who loses patience first, which can drag on for a lot. Not necessarily a fan of this matchup because it's very boring since you both play cat and mouse.

Also, I have finally flipped with the top1 imbecility so I did this:

Disclaimer: foul language VERY present

I watched it this morning while having breakfast, it's a great video. I had to go in the other room because my kids kept looking at me funny, lol. People are still going to come at you with their torches and pitch fork's but it's undeniable, the proof is all right there. I think we're all in agreement that he's top tier but top 1 just seems absurd. Now go get those S2 staggers out of your ass, not good if you leave them up there too long. Good video!
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Black Sabbath is slightly in Johnny's favor across all variations IMO. Johnny is one of the few who can consistently full combo punish any b11+3 attempt from Noob Saibot. Yes he has insane footsies (this is heavily downplayed aspect of Noob btw) but has always been held back by his matchup inconsistency. He's high tier against people who cant punish his mid properly, mid against people who can.

Which leads os to Seeing Double. Seeing Double makes Noob Saibot one of the safest, neutral focused characters in the game. Minimal risks, gets very good damage of stray hits. F2 is an amazing string and really shuts down a lot of the shimmy stuff Johnny can usually do against many of the cast. Coupled with d3 to check the +6 situations a lot better than most of the cast - he has all the tools to deal with Johnny effectively. Low Shadow also gives him access to a new Krushing Blow and he still has considerable corner damage.

I'd say Outtake has an advantage here still because Noob cant really do shit about it in Seeing Double. Projectiles are too fast for his teleport on reaction, and even on a hard read his teleport nets like 120 damage. But generally I'd say 5-5. He has a fast mid, we dont and his pokes make this very apparent. His is full combo punishable unless he uses Seeing Double and does b1 into ex shadow
 

Parasurama

Dragon
Black Sabbath is slightly in Johnny's favor across all variations IMO. Johnny is one of the few who can consistently full combo punish any b11+3 attempt from Noob Saibot. Yes he has insane footsies (this is heavily downplayed aspect of Noob btw) but has always been held back by his matchup inconsistency. He's high tier against people who cant punish his mid properly, mid against people who can.

Which leads os to Seeing Double. Seeing Double makes Noob Saibot one of the safest, neutral focused characters in the game. Minimal risks, gets very good damage of stray hits. F2 is an amazing string and really shuts down a lot of the shimmy stuff Johnny can usually do against many of the cast. Coupled with d3 to check the +6 situations a lot better than most of the cast - he has all the tools to deal with Johnny effectively. Low Shadow also gives him access to a new Krushing Blow and he still has considerable corner damage.

I'd say Outtake has an advantage here still because Noob cant really do shit about it in Seeing Double. Projectiles are too fast for his teleport on reaction, and even on a hard read his teleport nets like 120 damage. But generally I'd say 5-5. He has a fast mid, we dont and his pokes make this very apparent. His is full combo punishable unless he uses Seeing Double and does b1 into ex shadow
Useful info :) so you punish B11+3 with F3?
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Useful info :) so you punish B11+3 with F3?
I dont think it's possible at max spacing, but that rarely happens. The only time that happens is when they try to throw it out from a range where the b1 whiffs. But yeah, it's f3. I do a little micro dash to make sure I always get in range. It's -17 I think, so it's not the hardest punish but it is tight if the dash in is needed. Just practice the shit out of it. Else just do shadow kicks when in doubt.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Useful info :) so you punish B11+3 with F3?
If you're online and it's a solid connection, hell yeah. If it's 120+ ping and wifi (so like...every fucking match), then no. On bad connections, I tend to just shadow kick the fucker. It's insane because B11+3 is very recognizable, and slow enough that you have time to go "ohhhh man, I'm going to full combo punish this dumb fucker!" and then you hit F3 and it's blocked. Cool. Thanks online.
 

Tundra81

This is re-goddamned-diculous
Premium Supporter
I've been catching a lot of these fuckers that like to mash D2 on our F3 with the NP KB. I'll bait the F3 walk back slightly or duck and as soon as they whiff the D2...bam 370 if they don't break which they usually do :(

Kinda shitty damage for 2 bars and a KB but it is what it is and it feels good when you land it.

Edit: Shout outs to all the Shao Kahn players out there, when are they not mashing D2, +/- don't matter we mashin'. Worse than Jade's IMO.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Sindel....ohhhhh Sindel...That low fireball variation is going to be cancer for Cage. She'll low profile forceballs, mess with you with insta-air fireballs. When you're in B3/F3/F4 range, she'll have a quick mid, and overhead with better reach, and that low pop up. We'll probably be able to punish though low at least...And no doubt, we'll whiff like crazy on her.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
No worries, no hitboxes will get fixed at all and Cage will get nerfed to shit so it won't be only Sindel who destroys him.
 

Error404

Noob
I've basicly stopped using Outtake except for the Sonya MU. Low forceball is too inconsistent for me . It gets low profiled by all manner of BS. It's hard to justify picking it over unbreakable damage from camera. Especially in MUs where straight forceballs jail.
 
Fellow johnnies, I'm starting to get frustrated with the sub zero mu. I tend to choose show stopper var, especially if it's thin ice or avalanche. His pokes and neutral control with the unreactable (at least online) mix ups makes this mu cancer even if the player is just being random. I believe around 70% of my losses are against sz, and they're prominent in kl. The rest I'd say is against jade which is mostly annoying but I can manage against. I don't mind losing to a good player at all is losing to shenanigans that I really hate. Any tips or counter picks?
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Fellow johnnies, I'm starting to get frustrated with the sub zero mu. I tend to choose show stopper var, especially if it's thin ice or avalanche. His pokes and neutral control with the unreactable (at least online) mix ups makes this mu cancer even if the player is just being random. I believe around 70% of my losses are against sz, and they're prominent in kl. The rest I'd say is against jade which is mostly annoying but I can manage against. I don't mind losing to a good player at all is losing to shenanigans that I really hate. Any tips or counter picks?
It's fucking shit.
The good thing is that you can punish his 50/50s for good damage, and you can whiff punish d4 spam with b3 although it is tight. Learn to chase down his half screen moonwalk backdash and counter it with forward dash f3 for a full combo.
Just get good at that, not much else to do I think, this is MK11.
 
It's fucking shit.
The good thing is that you can punish his 50/50s for good damage, and you can whiff punish d4 spam with b3 although it is tight. Learn to chase down his half screen moonwalk backdash and counter it with forward dash f3 for a full combo.
Just get good at that, not much else to do I think, this is MK11.
Even that won’t help to an extent, Johnny does punish him for good damage but if dude just freezes you once you get put into a blender into a possible high damaging fatal blow combo if he has the health for it, all unbreakable lol.

I really feel that they should have just made f24 the overhead, no cancelling it into special, no doing naked f2 to remain safe with -6 on block, dude should have to take risk to open you up.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Subzero issue is not a Cage issue it's a Subzero issue.
Meaning it doesn't matter what you pick, you will get unreactable insta slide non stop and f2 slide which is the new doomsday earthshaker.

Slide is op as fk.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Even that won’t help to an extent, Johnny does punish him for good damage but if dude just freezes you once you get put into a blender into a possible high damaging fatal blow combo if he has the health for it, all unbreakable lol.

I really feel that they should have just made f24 the overhead, no cancelling it into special, no doing naked f2 to remain safe with -6 on block, dude should have to take risk to open you up.
A character with a 50/50 vortex into 40% in the corner and 40% unbreakable anywhere, tots fine. Average at best comeback factor. Showstopper giving up a tight FB cancel and his only KB, by opening you up honestly, is insanely gamebreaking.
I mean, fucking seriously, subzero can freeze you from fullscreen, after getting slapped by a projectile, stroll up to you and still combo you. You can't zone or comfortably do anything in the neutral because slide is perfectly intuitive for a "neutral heavy" fighting game. The character's insane, dictates the whole pace of the patch and punishes you hard everytime you think you can just catch his backdash on wheels or his d4 that might as well be plus. He's no different to Geras in this regard and everyone's just saying buhh fuzzy the OH.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Fellow johnnies, I'm starting to get frustrated with the sub zero mu. I tend to choose show stopper var, especially if it's thin ice or avalanche. His pokes and neutral control with the unreactable (at least online) mix ups makes this mu cancer even if the player is just being random. I believe around 70% of my losses are against sz, and they're prominent in kl. The rest I'd say is against jade which is mostly annoying but I can manage against. I don't mind losing to a good player at all is losing to shenanigans that I really hate. Any tips or counter picks?
And now for some constructive commentary:

This is definitely an uphill battle for any version of Johnny Cage, but you can win matches if you catch on to your opponents' habits. You're probably going to do the best with either Showstopper(unbreakable damage) or Outtake(Rising Star shenanigans).

As Johnny, you need to avoid throwing fireballs from anywhere past half-screen because a competent Sub-Zero will slide on reaction; instead, try throwing them(very occasionally) at around half-screen or closer, just to give the Sub player something else to worry about besides your advancing high. It's actually a good idea to throw out S2's from distance to bait slides for you to block and punish. If the Sub slides from a distance and you block it, use your F2 or F3 to punish because S1 and S2 will not reach him.

The good thing about Sub for you is that he too has an advancing high that can be D4'd, so be sure to bait him into throwing that out so that you can be +18.

As for his mix, the overhead is not reactable online, but it doesn't mean that you can't read when he will do it. If the Sub is at sweep distance from you or further, they will likely either use that advancing high(B1) or the unsafe overhead, so play at that range against him and bait the overheads whenever you can. Be sure to max-damage your punish. The low has much less range, so when the Sub is closer to you, expect it instead of the overhead.

Sub-Zero does have a 6-frame D1, but your pokes are much better overall and both your D4 & D3 actually low-profile that D1, so if your opponent's Sub likes to D1 after a blocked big boot, you can poke him right out of it and be +18.


People in this thread acting like Sub-Zero is Darth Vader and JC is a random-ass stormtrooper waiting to be destroyed because Sub's just all-powerful with his 'broken 50/50 vortexes' and whatever else they say that he has. Sub-Zero has some of the same limitations that Johnny himself has - no mids, slower advancing highs and situational normals/strings that all have exploitable weaknesses. As long as you play intelligently, bait slides/overheads, max out your damage whenever you get the opportunity to and download your opponent's tendencies quickly, you can beat the average Joe Schmo KL Sub-Zero player. Most of them do not use the character to his fullest potential, so you can beat them once you figure them out. I hope that helps.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
I honestly never worry about Sub Zero. He’s a great character, and if played right, he can beat you. Johnny Cage is still built on making reads...always has been. Make your reads and out play your opponent. You have access to his whole toolkit, and nothing to hold you back but you.

Just wait till Sindel.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
There is no tactic against yolo slide.
You WILL lose against yolo slide.

It's instant and will make you take no initiative the entire match and you will be stuck waiting for that yolo slide moment, while sub does whatever he wants.

And when you finally try to move or press, you will get yolo slid.

There is no escape, nobody makes 100% right reads.

Good luck.
 
What I'm having trouble with is to not be stupid in this match. I mean, since his projectile wins the trade into full combo and he can check you with slide, and even add the trap once in a while. And then you have those f2 into the special cancelable amplified which gives pushback and is safe and on top a low starter which is also safe. It's hard to remain patient and play defensively, and enables him to be lame and you having to chase and be keep pressure whenever close. Avalanche can play completely safe minus the slides, and that puts you in a strategically inferior position.
 
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