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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Honestly , Sonic probably gets away with all his BS because everybody is afraid of him. I'm 100% sure that, if it was me fighting Dragon , he wouldn't have given me one F3 or 124.

Just like popular brands sell with their name , Sonic wins with his.
Sonic get hella mental plusframes lmao
 

Tundra81

This is re-goddamned-diculous
Premium Supporter
I've watched GF of ECT a couple of times now and at certain points you can see Dragons hands literally trembling and Sonic is over there cooler than the other side of the pillow. I'm sure it was a combination of tournament nerves and the history between the two. The kid is something else.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
What's also hilarious is when sonic played vanilla Cold which was trash tier and idiots called it top tier so he literally got nothing for the entire lifespan of the game.
Later, when the game died, NRS finally realised they were clueless and he got buffs in the last patch but nobody gave a shit anyway because the game was dead.
 

Orochi

Scorpion Scrub
Premium Supporter
A lot of players here act like they would know what to do vs SonicFox's Johnny or know the match up more than pro players. It's easy to be a couch monster and say something like "Oh he could've done this, or he doesn't need to respect that doesn't he know this stuff?"

The truth is that this just who Sonic is, he does things that will work on that specific player, and if he was playing someone that was trying to disrespect or interrupt him he would adapt and do things that would punish that strategy.
 

Wigy

There it is...
A lot of players here act like they would know what to do vs SonicFox's Johnny or know the match up more than pro players. It's easy to be a couch monster and say something like "Oh he could've done this, or he doesn't need to respect that doesn't he know this stuff?"

The truth is that this just who Sonic is, he does things that will work on that specific player, and if he was playing someone that was trying to disrespect or interrupt him he would adapt and do things that would punish that strategy.
The point is, Johnny cage doesn't have excellent ways to do it. It's not like disrespecting Kang or Jacqui, he has a d4 check and that's it past whiff punishing basically. F44 is not good on block, horrible on whiff, full punish on hit if they get caught jumping sometimes. You can afford to disrespect at times.

Fox can adapt but after forceballs ninjakilla would only jump away or block every time. This is just too much respect.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
124 into f3 is a mental frame trap , when it's the 4th grand finals that sonic is beating you at lol
You should definitely interrupt it with s1 into full combo.

And then he just does B34 instead of F3 and full combos you instead.

People on this forum don't know how to actually play footsies and take advantage of frametraps. I wonder if it's an MK player thing or just this subforum.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
If you always have a counter argument for any argument about what should be done..

GUESS WHAT, it's a GUESS. So nothing is guaranteed.
That's neutral for you.

BIG DEAL, everyone has it.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Our point is nobody even tries to challenge they just jump away or block.

He wants to do b34. Jump at him, he wants to do f3, or basically anything except b34, d4 him.

There's hella options but everyone just respects it every time.
 

thlityoursloat

Scarlet peeing
If you always have a counter argument for any argument about what should be done..

GUESS WHAT, it's a GUESS. So nothing is guaranteed.
That's neutral for you.

BIG DEAL, everyone has it.
He pretty much just said what we keep saying..
His plus frames don't guarantee anything, if you jump you blow up b3, if you have a long range d4 you can blow up f3 and b3 provided he doesn't back dash, but then he's not really plus anymore. etc. etc. etc. etc. Lots of mindgames involved.
Yet guys just stand there and attempt to expose us for being shitty players because Johnny just doesn't give up his turn.

Also, can't you people admit this character's polarizing as hell? When he works he works beautifully, yet when he doesn't he's reduced to d4 string repeatedly until god forbid you open someone up into a combo, which'll probably get broken away.
He doesn't function like this stricly because certain characters' toolset neutralize his, it's because Johnny's toolset stops working against them lol. The character is broken, as in he's bugged. If they're going to nerf him then at least fix him so we can better know where he stands on the tier list.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
You should definitely interrupt it with s1 into full combo.

And then he just does B34 instead of F3 and full combos you instead.

People on this forum don't know how to actually play footsies and take advantage of frametraps. I wonder if it's an MK player thing or just this subforum.
I understand footsies, and how to use the plus frames...my problem is I consistently guess wrong. Some people are super easy to read, but when you wanna rely on conditioning, it doesn't always go your way. Seems like every time I think I got someone conditioned, I'll attempt b34 and that's the fucking time they decide to jump.

Cage, especailly not at a pro level, is just guessing all the time and hoping for the best.
 

Wigy

There it is...
@Qwark28

How do you think bartuc kotal does against show stopper?

Was running that and find it surprisingly difficult as cage.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
@Qwark28

How do you think bartuc kotal does against show stopper?

Was running that and find it surprisingly difficult as cage.
That used to be 6-4 cage before the V3 patch.

I'd say Buluc beats shock jock 6-4, goes 5-5 with showstopper purely because of the 45%+ unbreakable comeback factor and loses to outtake.

Totemic loses to all variations 6-4, 7-3 vs outtake.

Ascension, his best variation overall, beats shock jock 6-4, 5-5 showstopper, loses 6-4 vs outtake.

kotal's choice of variation vs cage is purely up to playstyle when it comes to ascension and buluc while outtake is the best variation vs any of kotals.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
And as a general FYI vs buluc/totemic, sunlight in the corner outside of d4 or f34 on hit is not a thing. Dash up and back throw punish it and you'll never be MMORPG'd straight into twitter.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I understand footsies, and how to use the plus frames...my problem is I consistently guess wrong. Some people are super easy to read, but when you wanna rely on conditioning, it doesn't always go your way. Seems like every time I think I got someone conditioned, I'll attempt b34 and that's the fucking time they decide to jump.

Cage, especailly not at a pro level, is just guessing all the time and hoping for the best.
It doesn't always go your way, because it's not a guaranteed frametrap. You're all focusing on what's guaranteed and disregard how strong what you already have is.

Cage is a char that keeps you from moving too much with B34 and D4. When you do ex forceballs, you're forcing someone to either stand still or interrupt your F3. You have a ton of things to do after forceballs that they specifically need to be looking for.

You're frametrapping them to bait them into pressing buttons. You want them to S1 to beat your F3, or delay buttons/walk back to beat your delayed B34.

Your opp can either block, press buttons instantly or slowly. You're the one in control and making them squirm. If they're very patient, give them incentive to squirm. If they're pressing buttons, be patient and cash in your free damage. If they're jumping back, enforce your frametraps.

You lose nothing by being patient. You can make yourself lose a lot by trying to be stubborn about enforcing frametraps in a game where there aren't high/low mixups.

The entire idea behind a footsie game for cage is that you want your buttons to hit, not be blocked. You don't have to religiously enforce when the reaction to your frametraps is them hanging themselves for you.

That's what playing a footsie based character entails. And your tools are complimenting your ability to do so. You get to be solid in footsies with B34 and F3, jail into +6 off of your low pokes, an ass-to-grass D4 that can low profile other pokes, forceballs to non commitally throw in neutral, top 2 AA jab in the game, etc.

As for your specific example, them jumping back means they don't know the matchup well, that's also a huge tell you can take advantage of, + the amount of wallcarry from a blockstring into backjump.
 
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Wigy

There it is...
That used to be 6-4 cage before the V3 patch.

I'd say Buluc beats shock jock 6-4, goes 5-5 with showstopper purely because of the 45%+ unbreakable comeback factor and loses to outtake.

Totemic loses to all variations 6-4, 7-3 vs outtake.

Ascension, his best variation overall, beats shock jock 6-4, 5-5 showstopper, loses 6-4 vs outtake.

kotal's choice of variation vs cage is purely up to playstyle when it comes to ascension and buluc while outtake is the best variation vs any of kotals.
Yeah I thought as much, once I get the flawless block on f24 ex disk it should be fine but you kinda need to approach kotal or he just turtles and then he has his half screen mid which can really shut down cages whiff punish normal game.

Idk I just find the matchup annoying. Once he's mid-range he can duck projectiles and check you. Legit only saving grace is big boy damage if you do somehow get a clean hit.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Yeah I thought as much, once I get the flawless block on f24 ex disk it should be fine but you kinda need to approach kotal or he just turtles and then he has his half screen mid which can really shut down cages whiff punish normal game.

Idk I just find the matchup annoying. Once he's mid-range he can duck projectiles and check you. Legit only saving grace is big boy damage if you do somehow get a clean hit.

Both have garbage mid checks.
F2 ex disk is a blockstring, F24 is done if you don't want to neccesarily use the meter, so you hitconfirm f24 into regular disc into 2 free totems.

You don't need to approach kotal, just get the lifelead. You zone him out, so he either has to come to you or walk back while he doesn't have the lifelead, assuming you take the space he gives you by parrying.

There's 4 ranges in this matchup. Full screen, 3/4, jump distance and up close.

Fullscreen you zone him out, if you have the lifelead you can throw fireballs, alternating patterns every 2nd one because he can parry and trade into disc KB. If he has the lifelead, he doesn't really zone you. A sunlight trade with a projectile only gives him 4% hp, assuming full duration.

3/4 is where you're most advantageous. He can't yet duck the fireballs and he doesn't have enough space to react with parry. This is the worst range for kotal to be at.

Midscreen is where your B34 is faster but shorter ranged than his F2. You'll be playing footsies in and out of this distance, into and out of 3/4s. If he ducks your fireball he can at most try to make you block a F2. Anything else you can safely interrupt.

Up close is where you jail into frametraps and he has krushing blow throws. He has a 10 F12 and you have a better D4.


It's rough for kotal because the range at which he doesn't have to worry about random fireballs is exactly the range in which your B34 works and is faster than his F2. D4 also low profiles his D1 and is a great overall check to any movement without commiting. From his side, it's D3, which is shorter ranged but a good frametrap on hit.

It's suffocating playing vs a cage with good defense, because johnnys inherent tools make it an even matchup, but when you add 9f forceballs that jail into a +20 EX if he catches you stand block dashing is rough, he wears you down and you have to somehow manage to open him up. Your job as cage is to constantly change between those 4 ranges, you can't be braindead about where you want to stay, but each range has a new ruleset kotal has to play with.
 

ABACABB

End Of Humanity
They neeed to slow down his fbs , what nrs were thinking lol ? Its worse than sonya spam . Online bitches spamming his fbs and thinking they are good at this game lmao It needs to go up to at least 12 frames or 15
 

ABACABB

End Of Humanity
You wanted to say spammed out i think ... and not in kl just player match . I play cetrion and shang and this shit is worse than playing vs scorpion lol I dont mind being zoned out like by skarlet in zoning war or kitana . But this shit ? It requires no skill or thinking like zoning with cetrion or shang. Thats my problem with it .

Cage is supposed to be upclose character and his third var projectiles should just be there to help him get in on zoners and start his upclose game . To not get dominated fullscreen . But with their shiity balance he is able to zone out pure zoning characters lol . Its ridiculous
 
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Wigy

There it is...
F2 ex disk is a blockstring, F24 is done if you don't want to neccesarily use the meter, so you hitconfirm f24 into regular disc into 2 free totems.

You don't need to approach kotal, just get the lifelead. You zone him out, so he either has to come to you or walk back while he doesn't have the lifelead, assuming you take the space he gives you by parrying.

There's 4 ranges in this matchup. Full screen, 3/4, jump distance and up close.

Fullscreen you zone him out, if you have the lifelead you can throw fireballs, alternating patterns every 2nd one because he can parry and trade into disc KB. If he has the lifelead, he doesn't really zone you. A sunlight trade with a projectile only gives him 4% hp, assuming full duration.

3/4 is where you're most advantageous. He can't yet duck the fireballs and he doesn't have enough space to react with parry. This is the worst range for kotal to be at.

Midscreen is where your B34 is faster but shorter ranged than his F2. You'll be playing footsies in and out of this distance, into and out of 3/4s. If he ducks your fireball he can at most try to make you block a F2. Anything else you can safely interrupt.

Up close is where you jail into frametraps and he has krushing blow throws. He has a 10 F12 and you have a better D4.


It's rough for kotal because the range at which he doesn't have to worry about random fireballs is exactly the range in which your B34 works and is faster than his F2. D4 also low profiles his D1 and is a great overall check to any movement without commiting. From his side, it's D3, which is shorter ranged but a good frametrap on hit.

It's suffocating playing vs a cage with good defense, because johnnys inherent tools make it an even matchup, but when you add 9f forceballs that jail into a +20 EX if he catches you stand block dashing is rough, he wears you down and you have to somehow manage to open him up. Your job as cage is to constantly change between those 4 ranges, you can't be braindead about where you want to stay, but each range has a new ruleset kotal has to play with.
I'm talking about showstopper my dude.

But thanks for that write-up! Appreciate it.

Kotal is just a funny one as he's one of the few characters who can challenge cage on his own game

F24 is hard to counter with b34 as f24 has so much range it's crazy hard to whiff punish as it will basically always reach you with a wavedash. B34 is horrible if they jump or abuse kotals big backdash well.

My best counter to f24 is jumping on read. I find if I use b34 I just really need to make a hard read and know what he's guna do or catch him trying to back off.

TL/Dr main issue, f24 dominates me in neutral and I can only squeeze occasional forceball trades and some jumping whiff punishes. My cage is rusty these days I think. Cheers for the advice man. Think I mostly need to be more patient, adjust to f2 being a fair amount faster.

Helpful though man.
 
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