MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[M.D.]

S1 is inconsistent on crouch block against all characters. S2 is character specific and sure fix it but this isn’t a make or break tool. Sonic didn’t lose to Kitana because of whiffing S1 or S2 but because Kitana negates Outtake’s strengths.

It is a make or break tool unfortunately, but nobody actually labbed the matchup.

When Liu Kang was steamrolling everyone, they all went to practice to practice how to make him whiff.
Nobody does this against Cage.

I literally saw dozens, hundreds of strings whiffing but nobody poked because they had no clue.

when you do 124 to get +6, 1 is 7 and 2 is 11, which means you only hit with 2 which comes out in a total of 18 frames.

So people are actually getting hit by an 18 frame mid non stop because they haven't labbed to just poke yolo because he can't touch them.

You can literally count the whiffs in all Cage matches and nobody poked because they didn't practice.

Also, Kitana also has a safe special with meter. Why is nobody going ape shit about this like they do with Outtake?

Double standards and hypocrisy are at their best here.

 

[lordlosh]

And lets not forget about how inconsistent Johnny anti air is.
Yet character like Kang have 27362336 anti air options.
And Johnny only KBs comes, where he sacrifice waste his FB, in terms to land his only viable KBs, and he need to meet 2323768236254 requirement.

I dont get how anyone can ask nerf for Johnny, where he is completely mid tier, and there is OP character in the game, that obviously dominate and have easy, easy time.

 

[M.D.]

Well...umm.. about anti airs, standing 1 functions exactly like mk9 did, I have no ideea why people don't use it more.

Of course it doesn't work on crossups and it's not godlike like noob d4 and frost d3 which literally AAs the entire game and injustice 2 at the same time.
But for far and medium jumps it always works.

But about the nerfs, the damage and unbreakable damage and KB is not the problem necause:

Everyone is asking for nerfs for OUTTAKE!!!

That's the funny part )

Honestly I don't care about the nerfs, i just want to have my character functioning the same for the entire 28 character roster.

If they nerf the shit out of him for males without fixing the whiffing, then the female matchups become 3-7 and I will literally shit on this game.

 

[DeftMonk]

And lets not forget about how inconsistent Johnny anti air is.
Yet character like Kang have 27362336 anti air options.
And Johnny only KBs comes, where he sacrifice waste his FB, in terms to land his only viable KBs, and he need to meet 2323768236254 requirement.

I dont get how anyone can ask nerf for Johnny, where he is completely mid tier, and there is OP character in the game, that obviously dominate and have easy, easy time.

what the hell. Feel bad for telling glortor other day jade forum is worse than the cage one. @Espio is it possible to make a second cage thread called "JC General Discussion (Sans rediculous downplay edition)"? This one is far beyond saving.

 

[Qwark28]

what the hell. Feel bad for telling glortor other day jade forum is worse than the cage one. @Espio is it possible to make a second cage thread called "JC General Discussion (Sans rediculous downplay edition)"? This one is far beyond saving.

Your community is beyond saving when there's so many trashcans who are unable to use the character properly. One of them in the last page is even saying he wishes he went up vs opponents that were so free to cage as NK.

The mental hoops these ppl will go through to avoid admitting they're completely free is ridiculous.

 

[ABACABB]

So are we all gonna ignore the fact that sonic just destroyed dragon day 1 main character with 2 weeks cage ?

 

[thlityoursloat]

Dude I wish KL bobbies were as free to Johnny as the best players in the world are. Top players are out here stand blocking b3 and blocking highs all day long without ever thinking about interrupting.

 

[M.D.]

So are we all gonna ignore the fact that sonic just destroyed dragon day 1 main character with 2 weeks cage ?

So are we all gonna ignore the fact that dragon just destroyed sonic cage free with mid tier kitana ?
So are we all gonna ignore the fact that steve just annihilated free cage by switching to jacqui?

Dude I wish KL bobbies were as free to Johnny as the best players in the world are. Top players are out here stand blocking b3 and blocking highs all day long without ever thinking about interrupting.

Not only that, but dash up b3 that's at least 20 frames, yolo b3 after +6 without them walking back to whiff punish or poking out.
Cage just walks back and they do strings midscreen yolo like Kang f4 and then complain they get whiff punished.
The sheer ignorance is staggering.

And on top of that there's old hasbeens coming out to this thread calling out the community while they literally have not played a single match with Cage against a competent player that labbed the matchup or even watched the matches to actually commentate with facts.

#cageishightier
#cagenottop5
#cagedoesn'tneednerfs
#fixcagehitboxes

 

[DrFolmer]

So are we all gonna ignore the fact that sonic just destroyed dragon day 1 main character with 2 weeks cage ?

Yes because time spent with a character equals RAW SKILL BROSKI. Come one this argument makes no fucking sense lmao. What are the odds Dragon suddenly pulls out some extreme never before seen tech? Non existent, this character has been labbed extensively. Meanwhile people out here still not punishing Johnny's f344u4 despite it being more negative than my nutsack exposed to liquid nitrogen.

If anything, it should demonstrate how little Cage has been labbed. Not taking anything from away from Fox. I did see NinjaKilla actually contest more situations than others did, which is why the losers finals were so tense and close - far from the alleged 7-3 in Johnny's favor that was spouted.

 

[M.D.]

That's exactly right, it's the opposite.
It was FOX who won. He wasn't carried by the character, if anything he was carried by the lack of labbing from the opponents.

Anyone who asks for Cage nerfs is an idiot.

 

[lordlosh]

SonicFox play Johnny Cage from far more than 2 weeks. Its one thing to play character just 2 weeks, and play character for a month and then play its other variation.
If Johnny Cage was something special, KombatKiller would have played him a lot more, than him trying every other character out there, and play mainly Geras for long time now.

 

[thlityoursloat]

So are we all gonna ignore the fact that dragon just destroyed sonic cage free with trash tier kitana ?



Not only that, but dash up b3 that's at least 20 frames, yolo b3 after +6 without them walking back to whiff punish or poking out.
Cage just walks back and they do strings midscreen yolo like Kang f4 and then complain they get whiff punished.
The sheer ignorance is staggering.

And on top of that there's idiotic old hasbeens coming out to this thread calling out the community while they literally have not won anything with Cage or even watched the matches to actually commentate with facts.

lol @ this random guy telling us we're all trash.
I genuinely don't understand why top players aren't mashing more against a character whose best buttons are high, and his only way to punish you for mashing is with an 18f low. If you force him to use f4 that's when Johnny delivers himself to you because f4 and f44 have no pushback. f4 rising star is great but it's not really abusable, is it.
There was this other tournament featuring yammini against people who actually understood how to fight Johnny. He lost the tournament to a Jacqui who d2'd him out of f3 or something, and Sharkteeth was getting steam rolled as Geras, but as soon as he switched to yeehaw he just adjusted super well. d4ing him out his slow buttons, letting him f44 so he gets free pressure off of his mid, neutral jumping b3, forcing him to jump and f4 post forceballs, not just standing there and letting Johnny do whatever he wants after forceballs on hit because they're only +3, and just generally disrespecting shit because he knew that if you just stand there and go wuh +6 he'll absolutely destroy you.

 

[M.D.]

First, there was so much whiffing and -17 ,-14 going unpunished that hurt my eyes.

Second, there was so much releasing block mid 121 or mid f344 that hurt my brain.

Third, the commentators were going "omfg cage, omfg cage" but failed to comment how the opponent was missing out on HUGE cashouts (hell, Dragon didn't punish -14 for the win in GF what are we talking about here).

"It's tournament nerves man". ORLY? Why don't they release block against the other characters as well? NinjaKilla flawlessblocking the entire tournament left and right and making 2 frame comebacks yet he doesn't punish -17 and gets d4ed. Tournament nerves my ass. They haven't labbed the matchup period.

Also the commentators were pushing cage through the roof, but when Steve literally vaporized that guy with Jacqui and Dragon's Kitana made Sonic's Cage look like a free day 1 ranked scrub everyone shut up and looked the other way.

As I said, the hypocrisy is off the charts.

 

[thlityoursloat]

First, there was so much whiffing and -17 ,-14 going unpunished that hurt my eyes.

Second, there was so much releasing block mid 121 or mid f344 that hurt my brain.

Third, the commentators were going "omfg cage, omfg cage" but failed to comment how the opponent was missing out on HUGE cashouts (hell, Dragon didn't punish -14 for the win in GF what are we talking about here).

"It's tournament nerves man". ORLY? Why don't they release block against the other characters as well? NinjaKilla flawlessblocking the entire tournament left and right and making 2 frame comebacks yet he doesn't punish -17 and gets d4ed. Tournament nerves my ass. They haven't labbed the matchup period.

Also the commentators were pushing cage through the roof, but when Steve literally vaporized that guy with Jacqui and Dragon's Kitana made Sonic's Cage look like a free day 1 ranked scrub everyone shut up and looked the other way.

As I said, the hypocrisy is off the charts.

Lol Sonic switched immediately because he knew Johnny just wouldn't work against Kitana. People think it's his footsies that are outrageous when in fact it's his zoning just haloing everything else.
I get it though, his projectile is pretty stupid against some characters, but against a good portion of the cast who are unzonable? I don't think so honestly.
Oh yeah and no one did anything about all the whiffed first hits of rising star.

 

[M.D.]

On zoning, Kang, Kitana and more trade on par with Outtake and some even outzone him (Kitana v3 for example.)
Upgraded Jacqui...LOL. Just watch the CoachSteve match for reference.

Don't you find it funny that we only see big body matches and then complaints?
Sonya is literally 6-4 Cage because of the insane damage output and female hitbox, yet somehow every Cage player avoids this regularly and only gets big bodies.
Frost is 6-4 Cage and vaporizes him, now with v3 maybe even more. Did you see a Cage vs Frost?

Also people randomy letting go of block vs Sonic and not punishing -14 do not count.

I swear they're literally walking through a minefiend and succeeding to dodge them all, it's very annoying )

#top1myass
#stopcageupplay
#fixcagehitboxes
#cagedoesn'tneednerfs

 

[Tundra81]

On zoning, Kang, Kitana and more trade on par with Outtake and some even outzone him (Kitana v3 for example.)
Upgraded Jacqui...LOL. Just watch the CoachSteve match for reference.

Don't you find it funny that we only see big body matches and then complaints?
Sonya is literally 6-4 Cage because of the insane damage output and female hitbox, yet somehow every Cage player avoids this regularly and only gets big bodies.
Frost is 6-4 Cage and vaporizes him, now with v3 maybe even more. Did you see a Cage vs Frost?

Also people randomy letting go of block vs Sonic and not punishing -14 do not count.

I swear they're literally walking through a minefiend and succeeding to dodge them all, it's very annoying )

#top1myass
#stopcageupplay
#fixcagehitboxes
#cagedoesn'tneednerfs

I wanna stay out of most of this discussion and I totally get where you're coming from but Sonic did put Hey George into losers. Cage vs Frost

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Lol people coming here downplaying sonic it was only cage not sonics skill.

Honestly if sonic wasnt playing the tournaments they would probably be boring with NO character diversity.
In different matchups he has used Jacqui, cassie, erron, Scarlett, dvorah, jade and johnny.

Sonic is always up against ninjakilla and dragon and he knew johhny could matchup against centrion and liu the best right now but used jade vs kitanna there is a reason hes the best.

 

[M.D.]

I wanna stay out of most of this discussion and I totally get where you're coming from but Sonic did put Hey George into losers. Cage vs Frost

That was purely because of Sonic, not the character.
He won with Dvorah so...yea. Doesn't make the matchup better in that case either.

Frost community always agreed it's a winning matchup for them, and the updates didn't help in any part for Cage to be at least 5-5.


If I can agree on something, based on Sonic performance, then Cage is in the exact same tier as Dvorah.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

That was purely because of Sonic, not the character.
He won with Dvorah so...yea. Doesn't make the matchup better in that case either.

Frost community always agreed it's a winning matchup for them, and the updates didn't help in any part for Cage to be at least 5-5.


If I can agree on something, based on Sonic performance, then Cage is in the exact same tier as Dvorah.

Sonic thinks Cage wins.
Ketchup and Mustard said that it was commonly agreed among top players that Cage wins the matchup.
Sonic has struggled against Ninja at several events, and overall in two different games, and suddenly Ninja can't win a set and gets reverse 3-0'ed.

It it's "It's just Sonic" then that should have applied at all the events up until now, but it turns out Ninja is pretty good too, and has been handling him just fine.

It might be time for people to admit that it's probably a favorable MU for Cage.

 

[lordlosh]

I would even said that SonicFox is probably better with Dvorah, it just that Dvorah totally s**** against Liu Kang, while Johnny has some chances. Even in that particular match i still favor Liu Kang atleast 6-4 against Johnny Cage.
Yeah SonicFox beats him twice, but it was purely because of his skill, and he was on the verge losing 3-0 against Kang.
It was him being clutch, than anything on Johnny.
Johnny has better range compare to Kang, and Kang have some whiff problems, but still Kang have the better and faster moves, and better zoning and anti zoning. Not even going to mention his 3782737237 KBs and land on will FB.
When taking pro into the consideration SonicFox should be out of the picture, simply because he is level above them all.
You cant judge a character on his gameplay, because he is that damn better .

CrimsonShadow, Sonic is 5-1 against ninja on tournaments. Before this tournament, it was 3-1. SonicFox doesnt struggle against ninjakilla, he struggle against Liu Kang. He lost GF to Rewind Liu Kang as well, which tells you the whole picture.
I dont know why we even put MK10 in the mix, the game was long time dead, and SonicFox was moved on long time ago.

And who are this top players that said Cage wins this matchup? There is only 1 top Johnny Cage player, and that is Kombat, and he said that SonicFox is talking b*. and the match its heavily in Liu Kang favor. He said it could be atleast 6-4, but in Liu Kang favor....

Just like what i was always saying the moment SonicFox picks a character, he suddenly became top tier. Johnny Cage was and still is a mid tier character.
Still too early to said anything about his third variation.

 

[ABACABB]

Yes because time spent with a character equals RAW SKILL BROSKI. Come one this argument makes no fucking sense lmao. What are the odds Dragon suddenly pulls out some extreme never before seen tech? Non existent, this character has been labbed extensively. Meanwhile people out here still not punishing Johnny's f344u4 despite it being more negative than my nutsack exposed to liquid nitrogen.

If anything, it should demonstrate how little Cage has been labbed. Not taking anything from away from Fox. I did see NinjaKilla actually contest more situations than others did, which is why the losers finals were so tense and close - far from the alleged 7-3 in Johnny's favor that was spouted.

So u telling me that pro player like dragon , knowing that there is 90%chance he will play sonic again and knowing he plays cage now have not labbed this character ? lol

 

[Tundra81]

That was purely because of Sonic, not the character.
He won with Dvorah so...yea. Doesn't make the matchup better in that case either.

Frost community always agreed it's a winning matchup for them, and the updates didn't help in any part for Cage to be at least 5-5.


If I can agree on something, based on Sonic performance, then Cage is in the exact same tier as Dvorah.

Settle down chief, don't get your panties in a bunch with me. I said I get where you're coming from. You asked a question...

Did you see a Cage vs Frost? Yes the best Cage in the tourney beat the best Frost in the tourney. Doesn't really mean much because a first to 2 in a high stakes tournament is a joke.

Sonic is a robot, he is the AI on brutal difficulty with all of the augments maxed out and every konsumable at his disposal.

At this point if they wanna nerf Cage because of 1 tournament presence then fucking go for it, IDGAF, I'll still play him no matter what. This way all of the recent band wagon Cages will fuck off and move onto the next.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Outtake negated Dragon's zoning real bad... Wow.

Sonic Fox did a really great job with Showstopper/Outtake.

I'm amazed how he managed to make Ninja Killa and Dragon respect his game so much. At one moment, Dragon respected 3 or 4 raw s2 before inputing 244.

I think that Cage being depicted as a unbeatable monster for the last two weeks has played a part in that over-defensive play from both Ninja Killa and Dragon. Even if Ninja Killa was less defensive than Dragon, they respected way too much.

When Dragon counter picked Kitana Highborn, he was way more offensive and won the game. I think Sonic Fox knew it was better to switch characters as soon as possible because Kitana was directly able to counter his gameplan. I think Kitana play a slightly better footsie game than Cage does.

Right now Cage is strong, but not strong OP. Top 5 ? Maybe, maybe not. I think Dragon didn't know the Cage MU as much as other characters. I mean, Dragon can fuzzy block/jump negate Geras f212/f22/f2 tick throw quite consistently but would leave some Cage unsafe moves unpunished ? I think the general lack of knowledge about Cage's MU and his depiction as the scarecrow of the game gave Sonic Fox the mind tools to outplay his opponents.

Look I'm not trying to downplay either Cage or even NinjaKilla's, Dragon's or Sonic Fox's play styles. I'm trying to find the reasons why Dragon and Ninja Killa didn't exploit Cage's weaknesses as much as they do with any other characters.

I mean look at any games these players had in the tournament: Almost frame perfect reactions to certain situations, flawless blocks u2 for days, awesome footsies, god-like reads on throws/high etc... But it seems that all of these were gone when facing Sonic's Outtake/Showstopper.
Also, we didn't have a full set of JC Outtake before the grand finals (on stream at least). Most of the times where Outtake was picked at the first round, the player would change directly to Showstopper. Our fellow Mikemetroid played on stream once, picked Outtake and lose the first match. Then he picked Showstopper and he took the set easily.

So yeah, Outtake seems great for certain match ups, including Cetrion, but it is not the free win pass or the zero losing match up variation some people were saying. Outtake removes Johnny's weakness of being a low threat character at fullscreen range with low forceball, gives him a proper air control projectile with high forceball and finally gives him a safe non-projectile MBed special move to end his pressure (not counting Caged Rage, this is not a safe move at all). Johnny is still less of a threat outside of f4 range and outside of fullscreen range where his low forceball can no longer be neutral ducked. It changes some bad MUs to even or maybe even good MUs, but I think people are overreacting this variation.

Sonic took advantage of the right tools against the right opponent at the right time and used them in a way nobody else can. Sonic won the tournament with Cage, not thanks to Cage.

 

[DrFolmer]

So u telling me that pro player like dragon , knowing that there is 90%chance he will play sonic again and knowing he plays cage now have not labbed this character ? lol

No Dragon has most likely labbed some things, which is why he switched to Kitana with great success. Cetrion does very well against his other two variations, but the new forceballs makes her keepaway factor non existent

 

[lordlosh]

There is a simple and easy answer to that. SonicFox is just better than Dragon. He beats him with so much different character. Dragon can lab all he can and pick superior character all he want, SonicFox is still going to beat him.