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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I still don’t understand why NRS does this. They’ll overnerf the characters that are dominating the meta, but they don’t simultaneously buff the hardly used/lower tiered characters. And when I say “characters” in reference to this and MK1 I’m talking about the Kameos as well.

The approach I’ve been advocating for for I don’t even know how long is to yes, still nerf the characters that are dominating the meta. But they only need to be slightly nerfed if you also buff the characters that need buffing as well. If they stay with this trend that they’re currently on, eventually the game will turn into an even more boring version of MK11. And I actually liked MK11 but even I will admit that it was a fairly boring game.

Like tbh, I’d rather them not do any balance changes compared to them completely gutting characters. If you’re not a top player or content creator that can put a lot of time into the game, the time you DO invest into the game is super valuable. So if that time investment becomes completely irrelevant after they alter characters SO much, it’s pretty tough to not only start over, but now when you’re labbing you know that what you’re labbing could very well also be a waste of time in the not so distant future. It’s just a terrible approach and again, it’s what causes people to drop the game. ¯\(ツ)
 

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
Should’ve just buffed the weaker kameos to be at cyrax lao level to be worth picking. This ain’t it chief. Cyrax/Lao gave you that ceiling to say “okay we have the best here let’s bring the other kameos to this level” But nrs tore that ceiling down and now the kameos are still weak and we are left with a gutted cyrax all for what? He had to suffer because the other kameos aren’t worth using?

goro is my kameo btw.
I agree. I think Cyrax needed a slight nerf, slight damage scaling and maybe a second or 2 longer on recharge time. Then bring everyone else up to what Lao was.
 
Baraka and Raiden are both still good. Their buttons haven't changed. Their damage is just now pretty good instead of half lifebar insanity.

It was dumb not to touch Ashrah, Johnny, and Kenshi because at the very least we had a good diversity of dominant characters. Now we have several.

This needed to be a bigger patch that could have waited for the Omni-man update. But most of the changes were still in the right direction
 

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
i think they want to incentivize you to use it in more different ways, not less overall.
You may be right, but most of the cameos are a bit lackluster and most of whom only seem to do one thing well which is combo extensions. Now people are being penalized via cooldown timer for such actions. People are going to use cameos in the way that best suits them and it turns out that most of that tends to fall in the realm of combo extensions. I would like to see more utility out of cameos though. Time will tell.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Yeah people think those who use Cyrax are the only ones “complaining”. I don’t use Cyrax and one of the reasons is because I figured he was gonna get gutted because it’s apparently impossible for NRS to do light nerfs while simultaneously buffing. They can only overnerf for whatever reason ¯\(ツ)

I’m more annoyed at the other changes that have nerfed Scorpion. They nerfed his j12 and they nerfed his EX TP. No idea why. Probably nerfed more maybe even unintentionally, who knows
Ah yes, like Jacqui, Fujin, Cetrion, Kano, and Kabal. So massively overnerfed, how could they even compete? :DOGE

Sub Zero never got any better, shame that he was low tier until the game’s end. And Kotal Kahn, who was permanently bottom 5 due to the no-buff strategy. And Robocop, who never made any top 8s.
 
I still don’t understand why NRS does this. They’ll overnerf the characters that are dominating the meta, but they don’t simultaneously buff the hardly used/lower tiered characters. And when I say “characters” in reference to this and MK1 I’m talking about the Kameos as well.

The approach I’ve been advocating for for I don’t even know how long is to yes, still nerf the characters that are dominating the meta. But they only need to be slightly nerfed if you also buff the characters that need buffing as well. If they stay with this trend that they’re currently on, eventually the game will turn into an even more boring version of MK11. And I actually liked MK11 but even I will admit that it was a fairly boring game.

Like tbh, I’d rather them not do any balance changes compared to them completely gutting characters. If you’re not a top player or content creator that can put a lot of time into the game, the time you DO invest into the game is super valuable. So if that time investment becomes completely irrelevant after they alter characters SO much, it’s pretty tough to not only start over, but now when you’re labbing you know that what you’re labbing could very well also be a waste of time in the not so distant future. It’s just a terrible approach and again, it’s what causes people to drop the game. ¯\(ツ)
tbh i dont see any character gutted. lets look at some details:

- cyrax copter being a whole bar makes him just like other kameos who can enhance their moves by holding. goros stomp = 1 bar, kano charge = 1 bar, lao buzzsaw = 1 bar and so on. and dont forget he got actually FASTER regeneration time on horicopter plus the hit reaction fixed (so maybe you can now get some consistent combos off of it).

- the enhanced damage scaling applies only to ~10 moves which seemed semi-broken to combo from anyways. it is completely in line with the pre-existing high damage scaling from throws or stuff like haviks unblockable. this seems to me like an actual fix to bring the game closer to its original intention.

- barakas copter combos now do 400+ instead of 500+ as ive seen on youtube and he cant do safe launcher into mixup 2 TIMES IN A ROW anymore. i dont see that as anything but "fine".

- enhanced regeneration delay after using the same kameo move 2 times in one combo isnt that much of a thing either. the benefit of doing stuff like 2 scorpion juggles in one combo was usually 30-50 more damage and now it will often be even less with the enhanced scaling. and you can still do it to close out rounds.

- raiden got hit and thats fine, i personally would have thought that nerfing damage and scaling from f34 would be the way, but thats a thing testers must know better than me.

- kung lao kameos launching reversal seemed like an oversight to me in the first place as soynas leg grab doesnt lauch as reversal too.

overall, this patch puts cyrax more in line with other kameos, puts baraka/cyrax probably into mid tier, massively tones down the raiden/jax damage insanity. the only downside i see is that lao kameo could have had even more reg time on hat. theres no arguing that johnny/lao will be strong now, maybe not as ridiculous as pre-patch or anything with cyrax though. i think the patch will actually help freedom and variety in mk1 because most of the move data is very well designed and its not as overshadowed by a handful of ridiculous tools anymore.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
Given the state the game came out, it's probably better to look at this group of changes for an early access game moving towards completion or more in line with what they were planning to release had they had more time and less of a regular balance patch.

In reality it's probably a bit of both, but there is a chance some of the "fun/strong" stuff people are upset at losing may never have been handed to the public had they had another 2-3 months to tighten things up.

It's not like they are tweaking and fiddling with a polished product here, and they are clearly working hard on making changes and bug fixes
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
The more I think of it, the more I think this may have been a "state of the game" patch rather than a "character overhaul" patch. An emergency patch that was already in the works waiting for after ECT so it didn't mess up the competitors.

Think about it. It would explain why there are mostly nerfs, and the nonsense "Cyrax stuff" or the "double kameo in a combo has longer cooldown" or some of the insane damage being reduced came in hot. It feels like they were removing things that should not have been in the game or are not intended for the game.

OmniMan comes out in a few weeks. It is very likely that this will be met with a patch as well, where I think we might see the first "real" buffs/nerfs patch come through like the ever-wanted Sub-Zero buffs or Motaro, etc.
 
The more I think of it, the more I think this may have been a "state of the game" patch rather than a "character overhaul" patch. An emergency patch that was already in the works waiting for after ECT so it didn't mess up the competitors.

Think about it. It would explain why there are mostly nerfs, and the nonsense "Cyrax stuff" or the "double kameo in a combo has longer cooldown" or some of the insane damage being reduced came in hot. It feels like they were removing things that should not have been in the game or are not intended for the game.

OmniMan comes out in a few weeks. It is very likely that this will be met with a patch as well, where I think we might see the first "real" buffs/nerfs patch come through like the ever-wanted Sub-Zero buffs or Motaro, etc.
This is what I’m hoping as well but it does suck there’s no communication if that’s true
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Ah yes, like Jacqui, Fujin, Cetrion, Kano, and Kabal. So massively overnerfed, how could they even compete? :DOGE

Sub Zero never got any better, shame that he was low tier until the game’s end. And Kotal Kahn, who was permanently bottom 5 due to the no-buff strategy. And Robocop, who never made any top 8s.
What are you talking about, you okay Crim Crumb? You’re not going senile on me are you? I’ll be charitable and say that hopefully you just quoted the wrong person.
 

Demon_0

RIP Akira Toriyama
What exactly would you nerf on Johnny? His pressure is the one thing making him good, maybe his walk speed/dash speed so he has a harder time getting in? From here, Reddit and gamefaqs it sounds like people just want to be able to mash out like they did in mk11.
I would indeed nerf his dashing/movement somewhat. With his pressure game, it shouldn't be this easy for him to get in
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I still don’t understand why NRS does this. They’ll overnerf the characters that are dominating the meta, but they don’t simultaneously buff the hardly used/lower tiered characters. And when I say “characters” in reference to this and MK1 I’m talking about the Kameos as well.

The approach I’ve been advocating for for I don’t even know how long is to yes, still nerf the characters that are dominating the meta. But they only need to be slightly nerfed if you also buff the characters that need buffing as well. If they stay with this trend that they’re currently on, eventually the game will turn into an even more boring version of MK11. And I actually liked MK11 but even I will admit that it was a fairly boring game.

Like tbh, I’d rather them not do any balance changes compared to them completely gutting characters. If you’re not a top player or content creator that can put a lot of time into the game, the time you DO invest into the game is super valuable. So if that time investment becomes completely irrelevant after they alter characters SO much, it’s pretty tough to not only start over, but now when you’re labbing you know that what you’re labbing could very well also be a waste of time in the not so distant future. It’s just a terrible approach and again, it’s what causes people to drop the game. ¯\(ツ)
I still don't understand how can a team spend 4 year crafting a game, how it will play, only to one month on release, completely delete the entire theory they had for 4 years.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I still don’t understand why NRS does this. They’ll overnerf the characters that are dominating the meta, but they don’t simultaneously buff the hardly used/lower tiered characters.
Nerfing is simple and risk free to the meta. Buffing (properly) is hard and full of risks to the meta. So developers choose the less risky option.

I personally believe that if you are able to predict the meta easily after a big balance patch, the patch is likely bad.

Because of the severe nerfs to Cyrax, are there any doubts about which characters are currently the best? Obviously, the previous top tier characters who relied on Cyrax the most (i.e., Baraka, Raiden, and Rain) have experienced the biggest drop in tiers. The high tier characters who rely on Kung Lao (i.e., Johnny Cage, Liu Kang, Shang Tsung, etc.) have remained the same or moved up. So has Kung Lao (the character) who relies on Goro, who is untouched.

The point that there is too much predictable tier shifting and not enough buffs, which will hopefully arrive in the subsequent patch.
 

Law Hero

There is a head on a pole behind you
My guess is that 60% of players doing strings into the exact same Kameo attack on a single Kameo was not what they envisioned for the meta.
I agree with this. I want a system that maximizes creativity; however, string, Sareena kameo, string, Sareena kameo, string, special move launcher, combo is not fun to do, watch, or suffer through. Like always, I think NRS has some great ideas, but for whatever reason(s) no matter how valid or invalid, have great difficulty sticking the landing.

As for the patch, I'm okay with it as a sort of "emergency patch" because the Cyrax issue isn't one that's unique to the competitive scene. I was just linked the Honest Game Trailers video about MK1, and even they complain about the Cyrax meta, so it's a pretty macro issue in the community right now that should be addressed quickly. That being said, other than Low Hat which I think is still too ridiculous, I would like to see lots of buffs in the next big patch. I think there are quite a few characters/kameos that pretty obviously need a little love and support right now, and I hope to see them get the attention they deserve in hopefully November with Omni-Man.
 

Demon_0

RIP Akira Toriyama
As expected, now everyone and their mothers are playing Kung Lao kameo.

NRS once again does a great job at shifting the problem elsewhere instead of fixing it.